Bucking advice

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horses99

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Having previously only done it 1/2 times over a year mare has started bucking into canter or sometimes in canter but usually on the transition.

Had back/ teeth / saddle / vet. Was diagnosed with ulcers but now clear and believe may have developed behaviour from having previously had ulcers.

She only does it in the school and will happily canter on a hack.

When asking for canter she doesn’t want to go ‘up’ in the transition sometimes she will canter others she will buck or not go straight on the aid. On the lunge she now doesn’t do it and with a rider on whilst lunging she doesn’t either. Not always a buck but even when she doesn’t it’s not a smooth transition as such.

Am seeking training but thought there maybe some advice not yet tried, tight circles seem to work to some extent and dropping to trot then straight up to canter again but do not really resolve the issue. As that just stops her bucking rather than stopping her wanting or trying to buck.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Mine was similar and had hock issues. Medicated and continued at a high level for a number of years.
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That was my first thought, ulcers are rarely the primary issue so if not given a full work up before scoping I suspect the real reason is now starting to become more of a problem and is causing the unwanted behaviour to get worse.
 
horses99 said:
She was seen by a vet twice if this was the case would this not be picked up as she was flexion tested and proded all over etc
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You would hope it will be picked up but it does sound as if she is struggling to push off correctly into canter and this must come from something being amiss, it is highly unlikely it is because she had ulcers as it is not getting better, they do remember pain but usually get over it fairly quickly once the pain has gone.
If you dont want to get the vet back at this stage the next best step would be to have an ACPAT physio out to assess her, she may well have some muscle tension remaining from her time with the ulcers and that does not always go once the cause is resolved, they are usually good at picking up on subtle lameness and unlevel muscle development which can be useful in this type of situation.
 
I would get the vet back first and foremost.

As be positive says, remembered pain is usually resolved very quickly. I was at a talk by Sue Dyson recently who said she doesn't think remembered pain is often an issue because she sees horses almost immediately improve when she blocks the painful part of a limb or limbs. Of course there are some exceptions but if you're not seeing enough improvement then best to get the vet.

Flexion tests don't always show up issues, a full work up may be necessary
 
She had the vet out only a week ago though that’s the issue she watched her ridden and looked at her etc etc I don’t have issue with getting the vet out but as she’s seen her recently I don’t know what she would say/ look at differently?

She had Physio when first started bucking and starting investigating and she was slightly tight in her hamstring but happy to be massaged over back area etc and she said she didn’t feel it was likely related

She is sensitive to having her stomach touched nearer her hind end not so much girth area, but she is also sensitive in general.

Vet also suggested heavier rugging as she may be sensitive to change in temp and to do with hair folicals as sometimes even a light touch will anger her. She is also more angry/ marish in herself now than when she was diagnosed.

The vet seemed to be at a dead end as such slightly. I am taking her to a behaviourist to see what they think but I feel she is hard to diagnose and not sure what else to try now
 
Also what do you mean by ‘full work up’ she did all the tests I would expect on a 5 star vetting when I took her before,

Her bucking has improved as such as she won’t do it hacking and not always now when she started she did it everyday every ride but if you canter in the school she will 80% do it at some point but even if she doesn’t there will be resistance at some point
 
A full work up will be in a specialist environment where they will run through a series of tests and nerve blocks where appropriate, far more detailed than a 5 stage vetting and usually requires a referral to your nearest equine clinic.

With the further info there are a few things the vet should consider, other than referring to a specialist as she is struggling to advise, hind gut ulcers often go with stomach ones and can get worse once the stomach ulcers are treated, a succeed test can confirm without being invasive.
The suggestion of extra rugs may be valid but her reason is probably a little vague, I would be considering a form of PSSM, it does seem to vary in symptoms and severity but certainly seems worse in colder temperatures, is inconsistent, is often worse when schooling or under pressure, can be a reluctance to go forward almost being nappy, a day or two off may make them worse, if nothing else it is worth a slight change in diet/ management which is suitable for a horse prone to ulcers so not an issue and the addition of vit e to the diet for a month and see if that helps her, there is loads of info on here about PSSM which may be worth browsing.
 
Ok I will browse thanks, she didn’t buck in the last year but has struggled always to some extent with having v.good transitions to canter but as mentioned now can lead to bucks main thing is a reluctance to go forward. Issue is with ulcer treatment also haven’t got loads to spend 😬 thanks for advice,
 
My horse has pssm1 from his warmblood side, so wouldn't rule it out. It is certainly quite unusual to have a half tb that is struggling with canter (more than normal young horse stuff), so definitely worth digging a bit deeper with vet if you can I would say. Even with a lot of extra training the resistance is unlikely to resolve unless it is just related to strength, balance or understanding
 
She was weak and underweight about a year and half or so ago when I brought her but not now and as mentioned she didn’t buck before only in last 3/4 months and ok so when we say further investigation is a full work up really the only option I suppose? I will call the vet and discuss options perhaps thank you
 
The first thing I would do then is get a referral to a specialist equine clinic and vet.

They are the experts and may spot something different to your vet or have come across something like this before and have a different viewpoint on it.
 
You say you have had the saddle checked, I woulds still look there, especially if she has gained weight.

At the very least I would have a trot round, you should be able to slip your hand under the saddle at any point and just have it just nicely massaged, not crushed. I am talking inserting your hand right in there it does take some wriggling. If the pressure is uncomfortable to you then it is also uncomfortable to her.
 
What you describe in the canter transition is very common for kissing spines, PSD and sacroiliac strain, all of which are not easy to diagnose and very often missed by vets and physios.

If she was mine I would be requesting a PSD scan and back ex rays, as the two are often linked. If those are clear, if I'd be asking for diagnostic medication of the SI, which I would also want if kissing spines are seen on x ray, as they are often not actual the cause of the behaviour.
 
Having just read some info on SI it seems plausible but also when she jumps she’s very active in her hind end so would this be reflective of pain there or not? My biggest worry is not finding out what it is and chasing lots of things, I’m not saying there isn’t something it’s just finding what it is
 
Yeah, it's tricky, and does really depend on what sort of vet support you can get access to. But if it were my horse with that level of resistance on the canter transitions, I would be assuming that there was something amiss. With psd/SI/stifle stuff there is a lot that you can do to help in terms of the way you exercise them (postural exercises etc). So you could do a few months of that kind of regime, keeping a diary of how she feels as you go, and then at least you'll have something more solid to discuss with the vet in the spring/summer.
 
horses99 said:
Having just read some info on SI it seems plausible but also when she jumps she’s very active in her hind end so would this be reflective of pain there or not? My biggest worry is not finding out what it is and chasing lots of things, I’m not saying there isn’t something it’s just finding what it is
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I had an exracer with kissing spine/Si that sounds similar to yours. it was really only pushing off in the canter that his issues showed, or if he got very hollow in his back. He would be fine jumping as the adrenaline/excitement of jumping would mask the pain i think. He was also finish cantering on hacks, he struggled in arena surfaces more. He passed vet flexion tests and everything when he first got checked. I'd recommend a good equine hospital for a full check up as well.
 
I would start with the cheapest thing first, so saddle fit - and tbh you can do that yourself in the first instance, as Red-nose described. If you are not sure then you can get a *good* saddle fitter to check. I wouldn't really be happy with the vet who seems to be floundering a bit, so I would ask for a referral/2nd opinion, if the problem is not caused by the saddle.
 
horses99 said:
Having just read some info on SI it seems plausible but also when she jumps she’s very active in her hind end so would this be reflective of pain there or not? My biggest worry is not finding out what it is and chasing lots of things, I’m not saying there isn’t something it’s just finding what it is
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Yes it’s not easy to narrow these things down that’s for sure. Are you insured or paying this yourself?

From what you are saying it sounds like most of the behaviour is seen when the horse has to use itself - is your surface on the deeper side? I’d think if it were primarily ulcers or ovaries you would see a more widespread crabbiness rather than so specific.

I’d borrow a saddle that is too wide, pad it up well and see what she does. I suspect it won’t make any difference but if it does there’s your quick fix.

Next my attention would turn to the hocks. I’d probably be inclined to block them out and see how she rides then.

The next step is the million dollar question as you are probably starting in an expensive journey. Personally I’d bone scan, but not everyone would.
 
Red-Nose said:
You say you have had the saddle checked, I woulds still look there, especially if she has gained weight.

At the very least I would have a trot round, you should be able to slip your hand under the saddle at any point and just have it just nicely massaged, not crushed. I am talking inserting your hand right in there it does take some wriggling. If the pressure is uncomfortable to you then it is also uncomfortable to her.
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I agree that a second opinion on the saddle may be a good idea but I disagree about being able to necessarily fit your hand under a well fitted saddle, too many variables and many different fitting models.

Bucking into canter, if saddle related, is usually a result of the saddle slipping onto the shoulder, and/or tipping back, with or without bridging.
 
My horse had bilateral psd issues and it was missed by 3 different vets so it can be missed - only found when I had a biomechanics vet specialist out cos I knew she wasn’t right and was so severe there was nil to do - She’d been diagnosed with hip issues prior but these were secondary to the psd... but she didn’t go lame as such til weeks after the diagnosis was made - she never made a canter transition without a buck - I kept getting told she was a nappy Cow but she was obviously struggling from my point of view
 
Another with a missed suspensory issue whose horse bucked into canter. Sadly unlikely to be fixable as left too long so light hacking is her best prognosis.

Still angry with myself for not pushing the vets harder. The scan was at my insistence in the end and it still took 2 scans to find the damage. In fact I've lost faith in my vets because of it and have a 2nd opinion organised next week. Even if that isn't good news I need more clarity.
 
i knocked saddle fit out the equation with my lad very quickly by riding bareback for a week or two and the issue still being there.
 
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