Building a Menage

[indiepie]

I am looking to build a menage and have got the drainage and hardcore sorted up to the top membrane. My dilema however is that i want a rubber surface, can you put rubber on top of the membrane say 8 inch deep or do you have to layer the membrane with sand. The school will be used for flat schooling and jumping.

Any ideas or pointers on where to look for advice?
Would be appreciated.

 

[martlin]

There are some rubber/fibre mixtures that can be laid directly onto your membrane, like Flexiride or similar.

 

[Mainland]

Rubber Chip on its own should not be installed at more than 50mm deep as it becomes too springy. I am unsure as to why you want to spend money putting 8 inches of rubber in at around £50/tonne when you can follow recommendations and put 100mm of Silica Sand followed by 50mm Rubber topping. It is much cheaper this way and a much better surface.

 

[indiepie]

Silica sand is definately not cheaper than rubber to us.
I am looking for the information as to why we use say 4inches of sand followed by 2 inches of rubber. If this is due to cost then fine i'll accept that but what i want to know is how the depth of the surface and which type effects the going? As far as i have read up on the subject, people who only buy from the main dealers can buy sand cheaper and then add rubber to prevent or reduce freezing in the winter. If all products were the same price and we could afford any (not brand names) what type can we use for the surface and why do we do it that way? Is it to prevent membrane damage, ligament damage, tendon damage etc. Or is just down to preference and costs?

 

[cptrayes]

I'd build a manege if I were you. Much more useful for riding, an arena, than a household.

 

[indiepie]

Thank you for taking your time to answer the question

 

[Mainland]

Rubber Chip on its own would ride ever so deep and can cause tendon problems in the horse. The reason Silica Sand is used is because the fine, sub angular nature of the sand ensures it is firm whilst still maintaining good drainage properties. The 100mm of sand generally used acts as the firm base to the surface whereas the rubber topping gives the unresponsive sand the 'spring' required to help prevent jarring when used. Thats not to say that sand on its own will cause problems but many people agree that some sand surfaces are a bit dead on their own. I hope this helps.

Regards

 

[Booboos]

I don't have a rubber only arena myself, but I have a couple of friends who are happy with theirs. They have both used the long, flat strips of rubber which (I imagine) make for a slightly more stable surface than the small, square bits of rubber would on their own. I would imagine that you would need a certain depth so that the horse's hoof did not tear up the expensive membrane, but if you got that depth from small, square bits it might be a bit unstable. Whereas the flat, long strips have a better chance of covering the membrane and not being too deep.

Might be worth chatting to some of the companies that produce the rubber and they might be able to advise on suitability and specification.

 

[Mainland]

The other point worth considering is that the rubber is unlikely to grip the membrane when used and could result in movement of the surface. Sand grips the membrane to help stabilise the surface.

 

[indiepie]

Thanks both brilliant suggestions. What i am aiming for then is a firm but giving surface. If i use sand to give a firm base and add rubber to allow a bit more give to the surface. But people have used just rubber surfaces successfully? So providing the rubber sits firm then the same can be acheived? Confused.com

 

[Mainland]

This is my point. Anymore than 50mm depth of rubber will be very soft. We supply 100's of arena surfaces a year and have never had a customer use rubber on its own. Just going from experience.

 

[indiepie]

Thanks, i appreciate your input. I have looked on your website for various details of products and found it helpful. I will need to get my thinking head on (Engineering wise) to sort out a solution. Cost versus quality i'm afraid. Whats available at what price etc. Still would like to hear from anyone who has constructed a rubber only surface.

 

[Mainland]

I am also interested to see whether it has been done or not. Whatever you do if you go down the sand route make sure you use a fine grade, sub-angular sand. There are plenty of people on this forum who went for poor quality sand due to the saving and have regretted it ever since. Out of interest, where in the country are you?

 

[kerilli]

you definitely need sand under the rubber. rubber alone would move too much, you'd end up going down to the membrane, possibly ripping it, damaging horses' legs. i have 4" of sand on mine + 1-2" rubber but tbh it's a bit too much sand and not enough rubber.
make sure it is the right type of sand, don't buy cheap builder's sand and expect it to knit together properly to give a stable base for the rubber on top... it needs to be equestrian quality silica sand with sub-angular particles that knit together.

 

[indiepie]

Mainland. I am in Lincolnshire. I have put a quote in for 100mm sand delivered to my address. TBH not in my budget at the moment but the question is to go as far as we can bit by bit...... Or to try something else. I know people do a cetain way for a reason but i am trying to understand the mechanics of it so i can make a educated decision and not a financial/knee jerk reaction and damage my horses.....

 

[Mainland]

Well in my opinion you have no option but to go for the sand and rubber combination. If rubber on its own was feasible it would be a well documented method. There has been a massive amount of research conducted into arena surfaces and the surfaces available today are based on tried and tested methods.

 

[martlin]

Mainland. I am in Lincolnshire. I have put a quote in for 100mm sand delivered to my address. TBH not in my budget at the moment but the question is to go as far as we can bit by bit...... Or to try something else. I know people do a cetain way for a reason but i am trying to understand the mechanics of it so i can make a educated decision and not a financial/knee jerk reaction and damage my horses.....

Whereabouts in Lincolnshire are you? There is a quarry near Kings Lynn that several arena companies get their sand from - the haulage shouldn't be to bad...

 

[soloequestrian]

I'm in the process of building at the moment too and I'm pretty sure I'm going to use sharp sand for the surface, possibly topped with rubber later. As with you, silica sand is totally out of my budget due to haulage costs. I know a couple of people who are very pleased with their sharp sand arena, and it seems to be commonly used in the US. The only negative I've heard about it is that it can be abrasive but my horses are barefoot and so to me abraison is a good thing!
Interested to hear any opinions on here, and it might be worth your thinking about it too as likely to be more easily available than silica.

 

[indiepie]

I am in Holbeach Drove. Kings lynn is good for me. I could arrange to Haul the sand myself.

 

[Mainland]

A lot of our sand comes from Kings Lynn. Sharp sand is a big no no. It is incredibly abrasive and rides very deep due to the grain size.

 

[martlin]

I am in Holbeach Drove. Kings lynn is good for me. I could arrange to Haul the sand myself.

Not that far from me then
there you are - from Yell.com
Sibelco UK Ltd
Site
Sibelco UK Ltd
King’s Lynn Quarry
Leziate
Middleton
King’s Lynn
Norfolk
PE32 1EH
Contact Number
01553 844400

and one near Scunthorpe
Sibelco UK Ltd
Site
Sibelco UK Ltd
Messingham Quarry
Brigg Road
Messingham
Nr. Scunthorpe
North Lincolnshire
DN17 3RG
Contact Number
01724 766 700

 

[kerilli]

indiepie, i'm near Long Sutton (so, just up the road from you!) so come and see my arena if you want, i can talk about arenas all day, having done 3 now...! i got my sand from Leziate's near KL, it's excellent stuff (as used by Charles Britton I was told by lorry drivers), you have to Pre-book lorry slots though because they're so busy, it's not like a normal quarry where you can just turn up. i have a book on arena construction which you're welcome to borrow, it explains things v clearly, full of diagrams etc. also excellent tests for different types of sand, which i used (and rejected first load because of it, it wasn't the one i'd chosen and was paying for... constructor's fault not quarry's!)
also, the rubber i have used on my last 2 arenas, Springride Rubber Shred, knits together much better than other types, so you might well be able to get away with less sand, come and have a look if you want.
pm me if you want.

 

[soloequestrian]

Sharp sand is a big no no. It is incredibly abrasive and rides very deep due to the grain size.

I know two sharp sand arenas that ride very well. As before, it also seems to be used a lot in the US. Abraison is good for bare feet. Would you like to quote me for silica sand delivered to Aberdeenshire? Or have any other suggestions?

 

[goneshowjumping]

we are just finishing our school, its 80x35 and we have used silica sand on then having a inch of rubber on top.
we got our sand from the kings lynn depot, having 100 tonne delivered every day for 3 days (but this will go on how much you want and how big your school is!)
i really would not ride my horse on just rubber TBH.

 

[indiepie]

I have PM'd you (goneshowjumping) with a good instructors contact details.

Think my menage problem is in my wallet....

 

[goneshowjumping]

thanks indiepie, have got the message, will def give her a call! thanks again

 

[indiepie]

Given my menage is built above ground has drainage throughout and granite hardcore membranes etc. Could i use sharp sand for a base then put my rubber surface on top? What are the big no no's of sharp sand? I have been informed by a colleague of my partner/wife to be that they have a school with sharp sand and it is good they haven't had any problems and the local ponie club hire it from them? Mixed messages......

 

[Mainland]

When sharp sand is loose it rides very deep due to the grain size. Sharp sand is measured in millimetres whereas proper silica sand is measure in microns. Over time the sharp sand will compact and become very hard. This is the prime reason it is used for bedding paving slabs and block paving. There is also the dust to contend with in the summer.

 

[indiepie]

Many thanks Mainland. Good points.

 

[soloequestrian]

There are at least three sharp sand arenas near me that seem to ride very well. One was deep when it was first built but settled. There is also a silica sand arena which is very deep and dusty when it's dry. Presumably with regular maintenance, sharp sand can be prevented from compacting?