Bully or leader

Good question!

I would say the behaviour of a bully is habitual aggressiveness - manifested in threats of biting or kicking, displacement, or even chasing - towards other herd members who haven't done anything obviously provocative to the dominant horse.

To my mind, the signs of a leader are to be seen more in how the other herd members behave around the leader than in what she (it is often an older mare) does herself. In fact, I'd say the leader doesn't do anything to other horses. However, when the leader sets off to go somewhere the others follow. They trust the leader's experience and judgement not to lead them into trouble. The leader isn't necessarily the most dominant, but may be - and if others follow her, it is not because of her dominance, but in spite of it.
 
Incidentally, Lucy Rees, author of The Horse's Mind, wrote a chapter titled "Bullies, Leaders and Friends" in another of her books Understanding Your Pony, for children, which describes her view of the distinction between bullies and leaders (which I think is pretty good). The text of some of that chapter can be read here:

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/forums/index.php/topic,16941.20/wap2.html
 
I am going to throw a spanner in the works and say I think we have to be careful using terms such as this in respect of horses as they can have negative (and overly positive) associations that could influence our expectations and handling of them. Obviously we are going to, even have to, use terms like this but I think we should also bear in mind that we don't know how much is down to personality, contentment in the herd, environment or physical status etc. etc. and that the bully in the herd may not need firm handling (putting in his place)for eg.

I've told this story before but I have a pony who was a so called bully until she had to go on a major diet. Since her diet change she has become a much more laid back horse in the herd and others just amble away when she flicks her nose rather than flee, previously they knew what came next if they didn't move when asked!
I discovered this by accident but it reinforced my thoughts that I should always look closer at responses to everything and to ask why... I've also learned that how horses are in their herd doesn't relate to my interactions with them. I now treat them all as sensitive and nervous of new/different things because I believe that is their nature and try and progress at a rate each individual is happy with.
 
He is also the leader though. If something scary is in the field he is always first to approach and the others stay behind him. And wherever he goes they follow him.
 
So he has an arch rival in the herd whom he needs to keep reinforcing he is the leader to. In a herd of male horses they will all be vying to be herd leader not at the samoe time, but every other day one of them will think its my turn, without the alpha mare as their leader.
 
I don't think his field mate wants to be leader. He's too meek and mild. My other horse doesn't tend to move out his way as quickly and gets a nip every so often. He never kicks. They all play and groom each other a lot. When there was a mare in the field her and the "bully" horse used to fight.
 
My understanding is that in feral bachelor groups there tends to be a stable hierarchy with everyone knowing where they stand in relation to each other when it comes to access to limited availability resources like water (where it is scarce). There may be other signs that look like aggression associated with play-fighting, but to my mind that is quite different from bullying.
 
Now that is an interseting one!

My Irish cob is a bully and a leader, or if you want to put it nicely, 'dominant'. Our other 2 horses always submit to him and follow him around, and out hacking he is always the leader and confidence giver.

However he is a bully too as will lift a leg or bite in the field - unfortunately as he is shod all round and built like a brick ***** house, often spends time separated in the naughty corner.
 
Biting and lifting a leg is not bullying it is normal horse behaviour to do with space a horse has their own space area around them, easy to picture as the length/depth of a shadow made by the sun of the horses body.

A horses thinks only of its security and ina herd if one is flagging as the leader another will try to take its place simply for security. A herd leader is actually not a bully
 
When one horse offers another, a warning, and when the warning is heeded, that's a leader.

When the offered warning is accepted, but the offerer presses home the warning/attack, then that's bullying.

It's a bit like people, when we think about it! :)

Alec.
 
Copperpot said:
He is also the leader though. If something scary is in the field he is always first to approach and the others stay behind him. And wherever he goes they follow him.
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That doesn't necessarily make him leader. In feral/wild herds this is the job of younger males, largely because they are naturally curious and strong but expendable. More important horses are not worth risking
 
Alec Swan said:
When one horse offers another, a warning, and when the warning is heeded, that's a leader.

When the offered warning is accepted, but the offerer presses home the warning/attack, then that's bullying.

It's a bit like people, when we think about it! :)

Alec.
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Very good explanation.

Otherwise, I think amandap.makes a very good point. These are loaded words human social behaviour is not the same as how horses organise and interact. Since we're supposed to be the smart ones we should try to see things as they see it, not force them into out own definitions
 
TarrSteps said:
Otherwise, I think amandap.makes a very good point. These are loaded words human social behaviour is not the same as how horses organise and interact. Since we're supposed to be the smart ones we should try to see things as they see it, not force them into out own definitions
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I agree. I tried to be as objective as possible with my descriptions in post #2, but as the words themselves are loaded with meaning for us, it's hard to keep that out of our thoughts.
 
STRIKER said:
So he has an arch rival in the herd whom he needs to keep reinforcing he is the leader to. In a herd of male horses they will all be vying to be herd leader not at the samoe time, but every other day one of them will think its my turn, without the alpha mare as their leader.
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Recent research suggests it doesn't really work that way. Bachelor colts attached to a herd apparently have low testosterone levels. If the stallion starts to flag the ones with naturally higher levels anyway will start to increase their levels and their combative behaviour. Eventually one will triumph and the other(s) will leave it sink back in the group with their testosterone levels lowering accordingly. I think this is fascinating!.something we think of as innate - hormone levels - influenced by and influencing social behaviour
 
Interesting thread!

I have a herd of three (soon to be 4 again thank god!) - one mare and two geldings, and Alf is definitely the leader. He is mostly very chilled out, and certainly doesn't chase them around for the sake of chasing them. He gets first dibs on everything, hay, feed, walking through gateways etc, and if the other two do something he disapproves of, he will bite them, or chase them away, but there is always a reason for him to do it. It may not seem like a fair reason to me, but I'm not a horse! They are respectful of him, and react when he pushes them away, but are very happy to be in close proximity to him, and will follow wherever he goes. if he is brought in without them, they will stand by the gate calling for him, or running the fence line, whereas if I bring one of the others in, the two left out don't care. The mare is second in command, and she's more of a bully than he is - she'll attack Spike for no reason whatsoever! She's got worse since Tia died (T was second in command previously). Spike keeps himself out of trouble, and gets out of the way sharpish without even thinking about retaliating. It's actually a good thing for him, because he gets to go out with the new horse on Sunday - in a rested field with lots of grass! New chap is old, and mild mannered - so I don't want to chuck him straight out with the herd immediately!
 
They are all the same age, 11 and he is the biggest and definitely the most nosey. He does chase the others round for no reason as well. Usually after feed time for about 5 mins.

If he's in the shelter they won't go in there. And if they are in there and he comes near it, they run out. Bought a large hay feeder suitable for 4 horses and he won't share it.

If I take the others out of the field he doesn't care but if I take him they call for him.

They still follow him about though and graze wherever he does.
 
Interesting. In my herd of 2, The Moose is dominant, but not a bully, but he's not the leader either. He will move D if he wants to that space/bucket/bit of grass, but won't keep going after D. D is submissive to Moose, but is the leader. He decides when and where they go and what is safe or dangerous.

I think that true bully horses are actually quite unusual. I wouldn't count a horse being possessive over feed or field shelter as a bully, unless they keep 'attacking' after the other horse has backed off.
 
Auslander said:
Interesting thread!

I have a herd of three (soon to be 4 again thank god!) - one mare and two geldings, and Alf is definitely the leader. He is mostly very chilled out, and certainly doesn't chase them around for the sake of chasing them. He gets first dibs on everything, hay, feed, walking through gateways etc, and if the other two do something he disapproves of, he will bite them, or chase them away, but there is always a reason for him to do it. It may not seem like a fair reason to me, but I'm not a horse! They are respectful of him, and react when he pushes them away, but are very happy to be in close proximity to him, and will follow wherever he goes. if he is brought in without them, they will stand by the gate calling for him, or running the fence line, whereas if I bring one of the others in, the two left out don't care. The mare is second in command, and she's more of a bully than he is - she'll attack Spike for no reason whatsoever! She's got worse since Tia died (T was second in command previously). Spike keeps himself out of trouble, and gets out of the way sharpish without even thinking about retaliating. It's actually a good thing for him, because he gets to go out with the new horse on Sunday - in a rested field with lots of grass! New chap is old, and mild mannered - so I don't want to chuck him straight out with the herd immediately!
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Auslander could be describing my herd of four, 3 geldings of various ages and an old mare, who is a bully, biting two of the geldings as she sees fit, the leader is my 10yr old, I often have to send him away, as he chases off the others when I go to the field
 
STRIKER said:
So he has an arch rival in the herd whom he needs to keep reinforcing he is the leader to. In a herd of male horses they will all be vying to be herd leader not at the samoe time, but every other day one of them will think its my turn, without the alpha mare as their leader.
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Not always, my male herd is stallions, colts and geldings all together and they are the most settled herd at the yard. Even when we take some out for a few days there is still no issues when they return to the herd. The leader in this instance is actually a very docile gelding, it's very subtle and I do find it fascinating to watch the small motions, looks and stances he does according to the situation and how the rest of the herd responds with no drama or upset.

Herd dynamics can be a mind field though, other people assume the eldest/largest stallion would be leader and laugh when I tell them it's the little gelding!
 
A truly alpha animal, of any species, will never be a bully because they don't need to be. As previously said, they command respect in a more subtle way - a flick of an ear or head position is often all it takes.

Yes, they will stamp their authority if pushed but it's usually the 'wannabes' who will start trouble not the alpha.

Best experience I ever had (with horses) was where I used to keep my mare. Fifty plus horses and ponies on sixty acres and there was never a moments trouble as they all formed their own mini herds. Each herd had an alpha and they never crossed each other - fascinating to watch.
 
catroo said:
Not always, my male herd is stallions, colts and geldings all together and they are the most settled herd at the yard. Even when we take some out for a few days there is still no issues when they return to the herd. The leader in this instance is actually a very docile gelding, it's very subtle and I do find it fascinating to watch the small motions, looks and stances he does according to the situation and how the rest of the herd responds with no drama or upset.

Herd dynamics can be a mind field though, other people assume the eldest/largest stallion would be leader and laugh when I tell them it's the little gelding!
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Do your stallions breed? Live cover?

I worked with ponies as a kid and they all lived together in a herd, including the geldings and the mares who were covered naturally by the stallion. It was all pretty peaceful but they did have a huge amount of space and were all pretty mellow anyway.

I also know stallions who cover and still go out with one or a small group of geldings, usually horses they have known since adolescence or before.

I've also known lots of stallions that live together in competition stables, although not turned out together. In many cases they also breed, usually going somewhere else to be collected and almost always AI only.

What I have found less peaceful is having stallions used primarily for breeding living on a stud where they cover and there are mares coming in to season. There has never been a problem with handling and general care but, given the posturing and upset when one goes out to breed, I'm not sure I would have risked having them out together! In fact one of the scariest experiences of my horsey life was being told to take a photo of two of the stallions together, as a copy of a photo taken when they were both jumping competitively. I knew I was in trouble the second one caught sight of the other, but I was in REAL trouble when one - the more easy going of the two over all - came right over the top of me, grabbed the other one by the top of his head and started to strike at him. I've never heard a horse scream like that. The stud owner, a life long stallion handler, was apoplectic when he found out and gave me a huge lecture (even though it had not been my decision) about how you can't treat covering stallions the same as competing ones. We quite often kept colts together, though, until riding/breeding age. I'm interested who out there keeps breeding stallions together in a herd.

One of the funniest ones I've seen was a woman who was keeping an entire mature stallion in with his half sister and maintained he had never shown any interest in her because they were related. Hmm. This has not been my experience of horses! I was fascinated to see this in action but when I got there the missing piece of the puzzle became clear - the third member of the party was THE toughest looking pony gelding I have ever seen in my life. He was as wide as he was tall and you could see he was not to be messed with from 20 paces out! He ruled them both with an iron hoof. He came right up to the gate, the mare was allowed to come up a little way behind him and the colt stayed firmly on the other side of the paddock. It was pretty clear he never got near enough to the mare to get any ideas!!
 
I have a horse retired to a herd now who I have known his whole life. I would not say he had been a leader everywhere he's lived but he certainly is now. The group is fascinating as it's quite large but also in a big area, and quite diverse in make up. They are not wild by any stretch but handling is minimal. It's really interesting to see how they all interact, what happens when horses come and go etc. They have reverted to a very "wild" structure - all the fertile girls hang around the boss, every horse has a few close friends, older horses are mostly on the margins, they get tougher on each other when resources get thinner, and they generally act like horses. In most circumstances we negate most of this movement by deciding which horses will go together, how they will be fed etc so don't really get a natural picture.
 
At the yard there is three herds - geldings, mares and ponies. From the geldings herd i can name you the three leaders, if the top one goes then for a lesson or brought in for the day then the other two will manage rest of the herd. From the mares perspective i can only really name one but she's more a bully sort of leader - the mares are very independant characters and there are far less of them than the geldings. The ponies: I can tell you teh leader of escaping and that would be the pony that i look after - He's a bad influence lol otherwise the rest are very independant but will be put back into their place by anybody when needed.
 
Our two old TBs were very dominant. But Joe was definitely boss and Ol was 'the muscle' who would do Joe's dirty work. They were a team. As Joe got older and less agile, this became even more obvious, and Ol got quite protective of him. When we lost Joe, Ol took top position but he was never really comfortable with it. He'd throw his weight around but he lacked the subtleties of a glance here or there that Joe had.

They're both raising hell on the other side now :(
 
TarrSteps - yes they do but not at my place, they go to a stud for a few weeks/couple of months and then come back and go back into the herd.

They are probably chilled at home because they know the routine, no covering at my place! There are lots of mares around them at home but they don't really react to them, only when some dunce takes their mare down to their field gate to say 'hello'
 
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