Bute and older horses

skint1

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He is an absolutely gorgeous boy! I am on a livery yard with my boy and I learned early just not to mention the danilon/bute- but once I began really talking to people I learned that most of us were using various amounts of things like danilon and bute to keep our older horses sprightly and happy. As someone said way back in this thread, it's a completely different kettle of fish to mask pain than to keep an older horse happy and lively in his life.
 

Honey08

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Thank you for a very well timed thread - it's something I've been wondering about for my 20yr old mare who has been on Danilon while recovering from an operation. She had cartrophen injections last year, but they didn't work so well on her as they did on my 14yr old (who has them to prevent arthiritis following a bone chip rather than easing arthiritis).

Re the Metacam for dogs, my old lab was on it for the last couple of years of her life. I frequently asked the vet whether it was safe. He said he was always reading research into it, and latest findings seemed to suggest it only affected livers that already had issues.
 

Apercrumbie

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I had a similar reaction when my old boy's arthritis got worse - people lecturing me about the potential long-term health effects of bute. Personally I think keeping a horse in pain is far more unacceptable than potential long-term complications that may never happen. In fact, I think it is completely unacceptable for a horse to be left in pain - I was gobsmacked that some people thought it was ok for him to be, just because they didn't like bute. (NB I wouldn't consider some initial stiffness to mean they were in a lot of pain) You know your horse and you have decided that there is a way he could be more comfortable. Completely the right decision.
 

Auslander

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I had a similar reaction when my old boy's arthritis got worse - people lecturing me about the potential long-term health effects of bute. Personally I think keeping a horse in pain is far more unacceptable than potential long-term complications that may never happen. In fact, I think it is completely unacceptable for a horse to be left in pain - I was gobsmacked that some people thought it was ok for him to be, just because they didn't like bute. (NB I wouldn't consider some initial stiffness to mean they were in a lot of pain) You know your horse and you have decided that there is a way he could be more comfortable. Completely the right decision.

Absolutely. There was never any question that he would have bute if needed, to make sure he was comfortable. It was the assertion that I should PTS, instead of giving him pain relief, that got to me! It shocked me, because it hasn't ever occurred to me that he was uncomfortable enough for it to be time to say my goodbyes - he just isn't!
 

Red-1

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My stance on bute (other brands are available) is that it is perfectly acceptable to put them on it and even work them on it AS LONG as the work is to the benefit of the horse, not to keep it sound to compete.

It gets my goat when people bute up and go jumping and competing at dressage. To me that is not ethical. Not least to the other competitors.

To give bute to allow a horse to plonk round the block in comfort is OK to me. I know of one who went up to 4 a day (it was a huge horse having 2 morning and 2 night) as he seemed to prefer to be in walk work to not doing anything. A few months of nice time and it was his time, but he was comfortable until the end.

It upsets me more to see horses in a field who are lame.

PTS early is OK by me too, horses are prey animals and it must be awful to be vulnerable and lame.

I would bute Alf up and keep him ticking over. If his organs give up then I know you will do what is necessary. Better that than stiff every day not enjoying life.l
 
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catkin

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You and your vet are the ones who have seen the horse, know the horse and discussed what is best for him - anyone else should just butt out.

My little pony doesn't care that maybe someday her liver could perhaps be damaged by bute - all she cares about is that today it takes the sting out of an arthritic joint and she can enjoy her life and being The Boss of the field. When that changes those who know her best (we and our vet) will make any further decisions.
 
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Apercrumbie

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You and your vet are the ones who have seen the horse, know the horse and discussed what is best for him - anyone else should just butt out.

My little pony doesn't care that maybe someday her liver could perhaps be damaged by bute - all she cares about is that today it takes the sting out of an arthritic joint and she can enjoy her life and being The Boss of the field. When that changes those who know her best (we and our vet) will make any further decisions.

Precisely - quality of life is paramount.
 

Doublethyme

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Haven't read the whole thread, but sounds like you are a thinking, caring owner doing the right thing by your horse. Ignore the negativity. Surely a comfortable horse enjoying his life is most important. Makes me cross when people won't give pain relief to horses.....wonder if they will feel the same about themselves!
Buting to keep an old horse mobile is fine by me. Completely different from the ethics of buting a horse for competition.
 

ILuvCowparsely

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I' have no issues with bute - I think it's a good, useful drug. What was really bothering me was being judged as selfish/cruel for giving Alf anti-inflams, when according to said person, I should be having him PTS!

Well "said person" should keep their nose out of your business, no matter how well meaning it is.

I had similar in the 80's with my mare with uveitis, lady who owned the private place where I was the only livery, kept turning the light off when I was mucking out, , her kids sticking cane sticks into my back and more and she kept saying I was cruel to keep my mare alive due to her condition, and kept throwing sarcastic cruel comments every time she saw me, saying pts would be kinder. Even told me I was not allowed to use the tap for the water buckets but I had to bring them from home.


Sounds like to me you either ignore her comments, or tell her you appreciate her concerns but the horse will be fine on bute. Lastly tell her to mind her f ing business and concentrate on the well being of her horse and leave you and your horses care to you only.
 

Roasted Chestnuts

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I’m against it to keep competing etc. My boy has a neck problem and he gets one Danilon a day half am and half pm, he does fine in this. He’s had arthritis since he was 15 (27now and still in light work) and hasn’t been lame with it. The Danilon for his neck is no doubt helping his hocks but he has a joint supplement for aches etc as well.

If he is happy and you are happy it doesn’t matter a jot what others think. I hate seeing people giving 3/4 a day to keep a horse out competing or to keep a horse going for the sake of it but it’s their horse and their pocket at the end of the day. Good luck with your boy :)
 

Auslander

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Poor chap nearly had heart failure today. He was forced to stand by and watch me "drowning" myself in the paddling pool of doom! I reckon he'd have jumped in to save me, if it wasn't for the post and rail fence

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Cinnamontoast

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I just can’t understand why someone would think sticking him on a bute a day makes you wrong? You’re literally making him more comfortable, not avoiding him being PTS! I’d take an inflammatory if I was having a bad period, for god’s sake!

I’ve just put my 15 year old on long term Danilon (bute and Danilon apparently metabolise in exactly the same way, I was told) because it makes him more comfortable, he needs to move more otherwise he’d just fester in a field and put on weight/be at risk of lami, so he gets lightly ridden, with the vet’s blessing.

Why anyone would think it’s terrible to put a horse on bute for its own comfort is weird. Maybe she was thinking of dodgy dealers buting up a horse for sale to disguise issues?
 

Tiddlypom

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It's come up on HHO before that quite a few folk think that continuing to ride a horse which is on maintenance levels of Bute or Danilon is wrong.

As said upthread, as long as the cause of the lameness/stiffness is known most sensible people would think it beneficial to medicate a horse with vet's approval to keep it comfortable and in an appropriate level of non competition work or field retirement, as long as the horse is happy. IMHO that would be up to a max of 2 sachets a day for long term use.

I know that Alf also gets the best of vet chiropractor treatment etc. I've just found a really good vet chiropractor who is as happy to treat creaky horses as competition horses, and Tammy will be getting regular treatments from now on in addition to physio etc. Creaky horses usually move wonkily so can get tight muscles in certain areas, which light work and good back care can assist with.
 

AFB

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I totally agree with your decision Auslander and would 100% do the same in your shoes. If I was feeling creaky and could pop a pill with minimal side effects to keep me comfortable and able to enjoy life I'd have no qualms. I can't see why making that decision for a long loved and well cared for horse irks some poeple so much.
 

NinjaPony

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Pah, my retired welsh has been on half a danilon on the advice of the vets for years due to man-made arthritis in his hocks. He is a little hooligan, and has been ruling the roost ever since.He's 18 now and so far no side effects. So I say go for it.
 

Auslander

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It's come up on HHO before that quite a few folk think that continuing to ride a horse which is on maintenance levels of Bute or Danilon is wrong.

As said upthread, as long as the cause of the lameness/stiffness is known most sensible people would think it beneficial to medicate a horse with vet's approval to keep it comfortable and in an appropriate level of non competition work or field retirement, as long as the horse is happy. IMHO that would be up to a max of 2 sachets a day for long term use.

I know that Alf also gets the best of vet chiropractor treatment etc. I've just found a really good vet chiropractor who is as happy to treat creaky horses as competition horses, and Tammy will be getting regular treatments from now on in addition to physio etc. Creaky horses usually move wonkily so can get tight muscles in certain areas, which light work and good back care can assist with.

My chiro has developed a special treatment programme for him, referred to as the OAP session - which isn't as intensive in certain places as her normal treatment. He really enjoys it, which says something, as he isn't a particularly touchy feely horse! He is usually a little tight over his back, but he is fine with having an intensive session there. She just has to be careful with the hind legs - he has been known to object and wave a leg at her.
 
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Well this morning the cob that is on borrowed time due to hind leg arthritis was rodeoing round the paddock kicking his feet up for no particular reason that I could fathom! Not looking forward to seeing how it affects him this evening.
 

windand rain

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We look after a pony who came in October almost unable to walk. Yesterday the farrier pronounced him absolutely sound. He gallops up for his dinner and looks wonderful. He has one bute per day. Turmeric linseed and pepper. His owner is delighted as a bonus his sarcoids are dropping off. He lives out 24/7 on a track which keeps him moving
 

flying_high

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As an aside does anyone have any tips for getting an older horse to eat bute when grass is good and he isn't super hungry? I can syringe it but he gets a bit fed up with this after time, and starts getting a bit head shy and refusing treats from my hand.

He's not on bute long term yet, but I am considering it after a 12 day course of syringing really perked him up loads.

Ideally I don't want to pay for Danilon long term (sugar coated bute) as quite a bit more than the generic version Chazone (or similar spelling) of equipalazone. Chazone says apple flavoured on box, but my boy isn't convinced!

Any flavoured bute or tricks to reliably get it eaten. Part of my problem with bucket feed, is he isn't reliably eating it even with no supplements or bute in it! As good grass.
 

PapaverFollis

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I'd missed this thread and haven't read all of it but Granny is maintained, retired on 1 bute a day and if anyone had a pop at me about it in real life they would get very short shrift... anyone having a pop on the internet would be soundly ignored. I would ride her too, gently, if I wasn't so fat right now!

She's happy, vet said he couldn't see any stiffness at all when I asked him to check her before our relocation journey. Any negative effects from the bute are unlikely to cause a problem before something else creeps up on her anyway. I don't get why people would give people grief for buting an older horse at all, including buting to maintain light work. But people give people grief over everything don't they?
 

flying_high

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I'd missed this thread and haven't read all of it but Granny is maintained, retired on 1 bute a day and if anyone had a pop at me about it in real life they would get very short shrift... anyone having a pop on the internet would be soundly ignored. I would ride her too, gently, if I wasn't so fat right now!

She's happy, vet said he couldn't see any stiffness at all when I asked him to check her before our relocation journey. Any negative effects from the bute are unlikely to cause a problem before something else creeps up on her anyway. I don't get why people would give people grief for buting an older horse at all, including buting to maintain light work. But people give people grief over everything don't they?

This absolutely. Bute is a moral minefield, but used considerately it makes many older horses much more comfortable.

And some horses need to stay in a level of appropriate work for weight management / arthritis management / muscle tone over old injuries etc. etc.

Judge not, less you be judged and found wanting . . .
 

Christmas Crumpet

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Don't you worry a bit about a little bit of bute!!

I had the most wonderful 20 year old ex eventer to hunt for a season. He was pretty creaky and not very sound but he LOVED his hunting and he was an absolute gent to hunt. I kept him going on bute and it made his last year on this earth a happier one. He absolutely came alive as he bounced down the ramp on a hunting morning. I was quite precious with him off the hunting field and he only did half a day twice a week or 3/4 of a day in 10 days. He had extra bute at night after hunting and turnout every day. But bute was what took away his old man aches and pains. He was on it for 9 months then at the end of the season I knew we would have to up the amount to keep him going and I didn't agree with that so he was PTS.
 

hopscotch bandit

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As an aside does anyone have any tips for getting an older horse to eat bute when grass is good and he isn't super hungry? I can syringe it but he gets a bit fed up with this after time, and starts getting a bit head shy and refusing treats from my hand.

He's not on bute long term yet, but I am considering it after a 12 day course of syringing really perked him up loads.

Ideally I don't want to pay for Danilon long term (sugar coated bute) as quite a bit more than the generic version Chazone (or similar spelling) of equipalazone. Chazone says apple flavoured on box, but my boy isn't convinced!

Any flavoured bute or tricks to reliably get it eaten. Part of my problem with bucket feed, is he isn't reliably eating it even with no supplements or bute in it! As good grass.

My mare doesn't want to eat up her tea/breakfast much anymore now the grass is growing. She is on one sachet a day of bute in her morning feed but has supplements I want her to eat in her evening tea. I bought some liquorice sticks and some of those herbal treats and mix one of each in some boiling water, allow to cool down and add to her feed and now she eats it all providing I make the feeds very small.
 

poiuytrewq

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I used to sprinkle Danilon onto a lick designed for laminitics. He was allowed it just long enough to lick the danilon off!
Worked well for us.
 
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