Bute trial and ulcer risk, how long?

ycbm

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Horse is on a vet approved Bute trial that was supposed to be for a week, and he's exactly the kind I would expect to get ulcers.

He's been on it three days full days and this morning, one sachet twice a day, and so far it's made diddly squat difference. In fact today he napped for the first time ever, but given the weather I really can't blame him.

How long would you leave him on it?

Thanks in advance for your experience.


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Bellaboo18

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I get your concern and really I don't know the answer but could imagine I'd struggle to do the whole week if I was seeing no improvement.
 

ycbm

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I am particularly looking for people's experiences of Bute trials, please, and whether your horse showed no difference for over three days and then showed some effects, and what they were.




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ycbm

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I'd give it at least a week. Bute is a cumulative drug and therefore will not show a real improvement until it gets into the system.


My experience of it is that if it's given orally for inflammation/pain from injuries, it generally produces a visible result in twelve hours.

I'm concerned to leave him on it unless there is a reasonable expectation that he could go from showing no difference for over three days to seeing something in the second half of the week.

I was hoping for some people who have seen this happen to tell me about their experience.

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ycbm

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:is finadyne any gentler on the stomach or would that be worse. My vet often uses it for trials as it's stronger.


A change of drug (maybe to add ranitidine) is a good suggestion, thanks. My inclination at the moment is to make tonight's dose the last and ask the vet to come over and do an MOT next week.

Physio found nothing very significant shortly after I bought him, and he has improved and improved, but just plateaued recently. He's such a gentle creature, I would hate to have missed something and just put it down to him having done nothing for nearly eight years before being asked to do any school work.



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The Appy has a history of ulcers but we did a month on high dosage danilon in Jan to see if it helped her wooden hind legs.

I would say by the end she was getting tetchy if I got near her with the saddle but that could equally be a response to being ridden with leg / back pain.

Equishure was essential - i had to emergency order about 10 days in.

I purposely fed her more hay than her waistline needed so there was always something in her stomach.

We didn't solve the lameness issues and I got told off by the vet for her weight increase!!

Personally I'd do the week then pop him on Equishure or a herbal supplement with slippery elm once you've finished to calm his stomach down then if needed.

Good luck!
 

Carrottom

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When a friend did a bute trial for her horse the vet said she needed to build up to the maximum dose over a three day period (which was 2 sachets twice a day IIRC) and continue for 3 days.
 

ycbm

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When a friend did a bute trial for her horse the vet said she needed to build up to the maximum dose over a three day period (which was 2 sachets twice a day IIRC) and continue for 3 days.


Thanks Carrottom. My vet said two a day but the week was a bit finger in the air, I think, and more because a week exists as a nice neat time period to specify than because seven days is the 'right' amount of time.
 

Pearlsasinger

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A little more detail would be helpful if you have any experience to share?


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If the vet suggested a week, I would do the trial for a week.

If it had been my horse, I would have discussed the potential ulcer risk with the vet at the time he made the suggestion and I would be very surprised if a horse-owner of your experience did not. I also expect that you feed an ulcer friendly diet which will mitigate the risk.
I have found that Aloe Vera juice helps to neutralise gastric acid in ulcer prone horses but would discuss that with the vet if I wasn't feeding it as a matter of course.

We have had horses on long term bute here, the vet laughed when we asked about side effects and said, 'you can be sure the legs will get her first' when he prescribed it for the first one. He was right, they did!
 
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Red-1

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I had to give pain relief to an ulcer prone horse a few years ago, and the vet gave a different drug, I think Metacam. It was a stack more expensive than bute, but the insurance was paying anyway. No effect on the tummy with that one.
 

ycbm

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If the vet suggested a week, I would do the trial for a week.

If it had been my horse, I would have discussed the potential ulcer risk with the vet at the time he made the suggestion and I would be very surprised if a horse-owner of your experience did not. I also expect that you feed an ulcer friendly diet which will mitigate the risk.
I have found that Aloe Vera juice helps to neutralise gastric acid in ulcer prone horses but would discuss that with the vet if I wasn't feeding it as a matter of course.

We have had horses on long term bute here, the vet laughed when we asked about side effects and said, 'you can be sure the legs will get her first' when he prescribed it for the first one. He was right, they did!


Do you have any experience of whether a horse which has been on a Bute trial for over three days and not improved is likely to improve in the second half of the week?

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ycbm

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I had to give pain relief to an ulcer prone horse a few years ago, and the vet gave a different drug, I think Metacam. It was a stack more expensive than bute, but the insurance was paying anyway. No effect on the tummy with that one.


Great, thanks Red. I'll talk to him about that next week.


It's so difficult when the only things happening with the horse can equally well be explained by his background as a hurdler in training who was then laid off for a long time and has reached the age of eight without ever being asked to use his body properly. He must be far from the only ex racer six months into retraining from a base of muscle wastage and zero fitness, who takes twenty minutes to agree to flex and bend.

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ihatework

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Bute trials are rarely dramatic in my experience - you need to look for subtle signs. And you need them on it long enough to pick up those subtle signs as a definite trend rather than a variation of normal.

I’d also say, whilst you might not want a horse on bute long term if they have diagnosed ulcers, I doubt a week or two will cause sufficient exacerbation to warrant not doing the trial if they do have them.
 

Pearlsasinger

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Bute trials are rarely dramatic in my experience - you need to look for subtle signs. And you need them on it long enough to pick up those subtle signs as a definite trend rather than a variation of normal.

I’d also say, whilst you might not want a horse on bute long term if they have diagnosed ulcers, I doubt a week or two will cause sufficient exacerbation to warrant not doing the trial if they do have them.

I couldn't put it any better, so I won't attempt to:)
 
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ycbm

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I went looking for what I had half remembered about Bute and ulcers which was making me concerned. The trial described here is very small, but showed a very significant risk of causing ulcers within seven days. I'm not going to give him any more, I'm going to get him MOTd and if there is any lingering doubt in my vets mind whether this is a training issue or injury, then we can do another trial with metacam.

https://ker.com/equinews/equine-gastric-ulcers-nsaid-administration/..


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Carrottom

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Great, thanks Red. I'll talk to him about that next week.


He must be far from the only ex racer six months into retraining from a base of muscle wastage and zero fitness, who takes twenty minutes to agree to flex and bend.

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I agree with you about this. I have had mine for about 15 months and I'm still not really asking very much of him. He hadn't been ridden for about 9 months (tendon injury) so I started with short hacks. I noticed he was stiff behind and struggled down hills. I had an osteo to look at him and she found tension in his hind quarter opposite to the front leg with the injury.
She gave me a series of exercises to do which I did fairly religiously for 6 weeks, I didn't ride during this time although wasn't told not to.
I got her back to see him and she was impressed with the changes. We agreed I would start ridden exercise again but keep on with the exercises which I do on any day he is not ridden (unless they all stay out for some reason).
Although there is improvement I can still feel a change in his walk when he is tense, I do find that trotting helps to relax the tension. However, I'm only working on getting him forward atm, I don't have a school so I can only work in the field if the ground is okay.
Sorry this turned into a bit of an essay.
 

ycbm

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Great to share notes Carrottom. Ex racers come with their own set of puzzles, don't they?

I've never had one this old before, I think it makes a difference.


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Carrottom

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Ex racers come with their own set of puzzles, don't they?

I've never had one this old before, I think it makes a difference.


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They certainly do. I'm fairly slow to involve vets as I'm not really competitive or in any rush, time often sorts out problems I find.
Mine is 7 now but is mentally more immature than the 2 three year olds we have had.
 

ycbm

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Absolutely agree with you about time, and there are no objectives for Muffin either. Mentally he's like a newly broken four year old. He can take all the time he needs. I have a soft spot for him, though, he's such a beautiful creature, and I'm involvng a vet earlier than usual this time. I hope I'm just being an overconcerned mum!!

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Goldenstar

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Been through all this not so long ago .
The research shows that ulceration from short term use of Bute is extremely rare.
However ulcers in horses who have pain symptoms are extremely common so if you then add Bute into the mix you may get a worsening of the ulcers .
We always start a Bute trail on a big dose we give two twice a day for two to three days and reduce to three ( 2 and 1. ) it of course depends on the weight of your horse .
We usually trial a fortnight that gives you plenty of time .
My experiance of Bute trials is a bit meh I don’t think they give a magic answer in most low grade multi causal performance issues in most cases .
It’s always worth a try because if it works it’s a definitive answer but it certainly rules nothing out if you get no improvement .
One thing to think about if the Bute relives pain in one area the horse has been guarding it may then tell you about another this could (worse case scenario )explain the napping .
But it’s more likely to be the rain !
These things are difficult leaving an undying issue that a quick invention could settle can result in a bigger issue down the line .
I did watch your video on your other thread and I am not surprised you are taking this route I probaly would have had a full work up from a acpat qualified physio and then done exactly what you are doing .
Not sure if any that is any help .
 

ycbm

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ACPAT found pain at C5 and atrophied back muscles, since resolved with progressive work.

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madamebonnie

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I haven't done a bute trial but my horse who has previously been treated for ulcers has been on bute for a week with no adverse tummy effects. He is on acid ease anyway and I am careful about his management.
 

Bellaboo18

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I went looking for what I had half remembered about Bute and ulcers which was making me concerned. The trial described here is very small, but showed a very significant risk of causing ulcers within seven days. I'm not going to give him any more, I'm going to get him MOTd and if there is any lingering doubt in my vets mind whether this is a training issue or injury, then we can do another trial with metacam.

https://ker.com/equinews/equine-gastric-ulcers-nsaid-administration/..


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Sounds like a good plan.
 

ycbm

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Update to this and he's going better than he ever has. I think the slip he had on the farm ride on May 30th might have given him a tiny tweak that's got better by itself.

He's got muscle coming in the loin area he's never had before, I'm really pleased with his changing shape.

Vet visit is postponed :)



PS can anyone give me any pointers how to stop wasting hours just stroking his coat? It's like silk, I'm drooling over him!
 

criso

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PS can anyone give me any pointers how to stop wasting hours just stroking his coat? It's like silk, I'm drooling over him!

Sorry can't help with that. That bit just above the nostril ...

Also spamming friends with endless pictures in Instagram and Facebook just because they add a bit of class to a landscape

Glad yours is improving

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