buying a youngster vs. an experienced horse?

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Decision_Tree

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Hullo all -

I am considering in the future buying a second horse as my current boy is reaching his limits with regards to jumping heights and I am becoming keen to progress further. I have no intention of selling him as he is my best friend and I dont need to sell him to fund another horse.

I am weighting up options and wondered if anyone else had bought a young horse and had a pro rider bring it on for them? (when I mean pro, I mean some1 who rides, teaches, schools for a living rather than WFP!). I am considering that option or buying an experienced horse? Just wondering the pros and cons of both in terms of cash and also the end horse?

Only beroccas on offer I am afraid!

Thanks
 
With hindsight, I wish I'd bought the more experienced horse that had done what I wanted to do so we were not the blind leading the blind. I would then have been better equipped to take on the youngster. At the moment schoolmaster horses are going for an absolute song, relatively speaking.

I actually bought the youngster, went Novice in our second season, all going well, but when it fell apart, it did so spectacularly, and I ended up paying a pro rider for a season, then spending a small fortune on lessons, and whilst it is fun again now, it wasn't for a couple of years, and the things I could have done/would have learnt from a more experienced horse would have been worth their weight in gold.

I still trawl the ads looking for a schoolmaster now, even though I'm in no position to have a second horse!!
 
See I would always go for a young horse, and invest as much as you can in good lessons etc right from day dot. I have seen SO many people buy more experienced horses who have never got to where they wanted to be due to never being able to match/compare with the previous rider!!

Get a young hore with a good attitude and the right support and you will be amazed with what you can achieve... I went out last time looking for a more experienced horse, but tbh all the horses I looked at with my budget would be limited very quickly with what I wanted to do. I got a lot more value for money with my young horse, and ended up with a better horse than any of the older ones I tried....BUT it depends on your budget etc I guess, and how confident you are that you will be able to have ongoing support with someone with a baby :)
 
I think it also depends on your goals. If you're aiming at below say Intermediate or 1.30 classes or Medium Dressage, then I think you're fine. If your goals are higher, I think until you've sat on something and know what it is supposed to feel like, you have no way of knowing what you are aiming for! Obviously there are exceptions in every case, but the difference it makes sitting on something and learning the feel of 'correct' should not be underestimated!
 
Its a difficult one and there are pros and cons to both. I agree with what spotted cat has said above to some degree and I think it depends on how you want to go.

I went down the youngster route and its taken time but he's not jumping round BE90 nicely and confidently and I am planning on PN and possibly N with him next season. Its taken time though and there's been many instances where I have thought it would be good to have a school master.

Also, if you are looking for the horses to take you further than you have gone before then perhaps something with more experience is the way forward. If you have a good trainer/instructor who can work with and stick with then it would probably be fine.

I say all this but I would change my situation for the world. I backed my baby and he's come on leaps and bounds and its really rewarding.. I may have cried a little bit when he completed his first BE90.. ha!

There are soooo many horses going for a steal at the mo.. I was looking at buying another youngster and couldn't believe how much I could get for so little!!
 
Much depends on how much experience you have now and how you ride. Add to that the temperament of the younger horse and how willing they are to work, a bit of luck and you have a variable recipe for success. That is part of the fun but also a risk.

An older, sound and not professionally ridden during its career schoolmaster is worth its weight in gold but as SpottedCat says hard to find as they often change hands through word of mouth as the Grade A schoolmaster we bought for our then 14yo son did. There is greater risk of injury and the horses value will drop as he or she gets older but the experience is hard to put a price on.

I have never had a horse with a professional but in a good number of those that I know of where the horse has come back to an amateur owner after being professionally ridden the horse has struggled to cope without the pro and the amateur rider has felt inadequate and frustrated.

Why not get a nice 5-6yo and regular training from someone you trust, perhaps the pro you might have sent the horse to?

Edited to add - I wrote this without seeing KatB's almost identical post!
 
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If you can afford a schoolmaster, I'd go for one. The ability to get it wrong and have a horse who gets your drift and sorts it out so next time you can get it right would be invaluable in the long run.
 
thanks guys - I think there is defo pros and cons to both. I think that ideally I would be best holding off and getting an older horse (7-9) which is "ready" made to go have fun with. I also think the cost of having a youngest brought on would be greater than buying an experienced horse as youngsters tend to carry the "potential" lable!
 
SpottedCat said:
I think it also depends on your goals. If you're aiming at below say Intermediate or 1.30 classes or Medium Dressage, then I think you're fine. If your goals are higher, I think until you've sat on something and know what it is supposed to feel like, you have no way of knowing what you are aiming for! Obviously there are exceptions in every case, but the difference it makes sitting on something and learning the feel of 'correct' should not be underestimated!
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Yep I agree to some extent with this, but then if your aiming for higher than this, you should be able to manage most quirks an older more experienced horse may have, or have enough about you to manage to get decent results regardless of who had it before!

A majority of amateurs IMHO though would be much better off having a horse that's never been placed time after time, and "nannied" in the wy a pro or very experienced jockey can. That leaves you with schoolmasters who ideally have been produced solely by amateurs, which are a bit like hens teeth!

I think having schoolmaster lessons is HUGELY beneficial to know as you say what is right, but a good support network and a young horse should mean you end up with a horse who isn't so bothered if you get it wrong, because it's never known otherwise, and a rider who won't do a HUGE amount badly wrong, because they'd get their a** kicked by their trainer...
 
Lolo said:
If you can afford a schoolmaster, I'd go for one. The ability to get it wrong and have a horse who gets your drift and sorts it out so next time you can get it right would be invaluable in the long run.
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yes... IF it's that sort of schoolmaster. ;) ;) some 'can't take a joke' as the saying goes, esp if they've been ridden by a pro. if they're used to an accurate rider, they might not cope with an inaccurate one... plus there's the weight of expectation etc. it doesn't always work.
an honest straightforward youngster and really good regular tuition are a great combination, you learn together, and the horse won't know any different. (fwiw i've never had a schoolmaster, i've learnt with my horses and got to surprisingly levels. no idea whether i'd have gotten so far on a schoolmaster...)
 
I think there are other contributing factors too such as the facilities you have readily available and how much time you have. When I was looking for my second horse to take me beyond grassroots level I actually had the luxury of having an incredibly talented youngster on trial. He was exceptionally green, but was so scopey (half brother of Borough Pennyz) and quite an exciting prospect. Anyway, he failed the vetting and with hindsight I am so glad he did! I have now got an intermediate schoolmaster who has been competed by Andrew Nicholson and Lucy Wiergesma (so quite a big saddle to fill!). I work full time, pretty long hours too and there is no way that I could have done the youngter justice. Particulary in the winter. My new horse is so established that it doesn't matter if I don't sit on him before a competition and he is trustworthy enough for a friend to hack out for me.

Nothing beats the feeling of leaving a start box knowing that your horse has been round much bigger tracks!! Each to their own though, but with my personal circumstances, a younster wouldnt work.
 
I had a schoolmaster who was 16 so a proper schoolmaster! It def made life a lot easier in some ways but harder in others, my schoolmaster had been produced by my family, he was a hand me down but even then he had his own way of doing things and I either fitted in with that or I would find my self sailing over the fence without him :p. I achieved an awful lot with him, won a lot of prizes and had an amazing time but he had been ridden by pro's and amatures and really was a very special horse who taught me a lot.
Like one of the other posters said finding an amature produced schoolmaster would be your best bet but then again at 7-9 thats still quite young and how much of the success was down to the previous rider?? Also did they take any shortcuts, you wont know this unless they come to bite you on the arse when you try to progress!

Its up to you but don't underestimate your own ability at bringing on a horse with support, you don't need a pro to bring your horse on for you in order for it to be a good horse. There is a lot to be said for the partnership you create with a young horse when you bring it on and that can take you a long way on its own IF you get the right young horse for YOU! Theres also the added comfort of knowing you can put the basics in really well so you have solid foundations for the years to come. I've brought on 2 of my own youngsters now, no help really and i'm a true one horse hobby rider! My horse now is great, I wouldnt swap him for a schoolmaster as I know him inside out and our partnership is very strong, what he does, he does for me because I trained him and we trust each other. Theres a lot to be said for that!! All the buttons I push, I created, how I like them :p. When I get on other peoples horses they are never as nice as my own because they dont have that imprint.

Theres pros and cons both ways.
 
A lot of good points guys, esp Kerilli. I hadnt really thought that a more experience horse might not be as "forgiving".

Its made me think about my curren current horse who I bought at 4, he had jumped one round of SJ in his life! I was out looking for a schoolmaster...... But, my current boy is so clever with his feet now as he hasnt been ridden by an expert and I also know every stop he has had etc as its only me who has ever XC-ed him. He doesnt stop unless its geninue which I think is something you cant ever buy. I think I might be best do another few years with him at 90cm before getting another horse, atleast that will give me loads of time to consider everything! I am half put off "older" horses due to health and "past lives".... which in turn will have an effect soundness in later life as well as ability to forgive my mistakes!

Eekk.. think I have just typed a ramble!
 
I think we are all making the same point - temperement is key. You would be better off with a younster with a kind temprement than an experienced horse with a bad one. But that's not to say that you can't find a schoolmaster with the right heart and brain (as I have one!!)

Best of luck with your search. Take your time!
 
Your question has been well answered, but I would add a "schoolmaster" is as much born as made and can come from a number of backgrounds. I've known great ones produced almost entirely by pros until they were downgraded and ones produced by amateurs that were so oddly made up almost no one else, even professionals, could get a tune out of them. I would want a horse that's done at least a bit with a less experienced rider but I wouldn't rule one out just because it's been in a pro yard.

Same with the young horse - so much depends on the horse. And, of course, your aspirations. I will say though, this is one of those situations where it really pays to get the advice of someone experienced who knows you, as some of the pitfalls (as SC said) don't become apparent for some time.

A friend of mine (competed up to Int a bit as a teenager, so hardly new to the sport) had gone the young horse route, buying 3 successive horses from their breeders' so she could have a "clean slate". All have done okay at the lower levels but fallen off the rails at Novice and not been competitive, all developing issues that could be directly attributed to holes in their training and production. (She's a doctor, has money, her own place, access to good training and is ambitious, although also has her own practice and a small child, so realistic.) The next one she bought was a "cheap" amateur horse that had been off for a bit but competed up to Int. It wasn't up to the job and was tricky to ride, which she couldn't find out ahead of time since it wasn't actively competing.

This past winter she bought a horse through her trainer's contact, that's been with a pro but the feeling was he wasn't going to be super competitive much above Int. He'd done one event with a working student, I think, and was considered easy to ride, but a bit small and ordinary. This year she's done nothing but win, even at Novice. She's jumping much bigger at home to get her eye in and had traveled to bigger events as it's more worthwhile, having some incredible experiences. Okay, it's cost a bit more but if you factor in what she spent on the other 4 horses . . . I think NOW she would be in a much better position to choose and bring on a young horse alongside Frank, because he's given her that invaluable experience.
 
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TarrSteps said:
This past winter she bought a horse through her trainer's contact, that's been with a pro but the feeling was he wasn't going to be super competitive much above Int. He'd done one event with a working student, I think, and was considered easy to ride, but a bit small and ordinary. This year she's done nothing but win, even at Novice. She's jumping much bigger at home to get her eye in and had traveled to bigger events as it's more worthwhile, having some incredible experiences. Okay, it's cost a bit more but if you factor in what she spent on the other 4 horses . . . I think NOW she would be in a much better position to choose and bring on a young horse alongside Frank, because he's given her that invaluable experience.
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That's exactly the horse I'd spend money on if I could. I've been lucky in that my horse was forgiving and smart, even as a youngster, and he was bold but not stupid XC, so went Novice easily, and when everything was fine it was great, but when he was under-par, I got fobbed off by vets and the whole thing became an unholy disaster. The amount of money I spent on having him ridden by a pro, and then the subsequent lessons to get me back on track with him, added to what I spent being average at events before hand, and what I paid for him originally, would have bought me an exceptionally nice horse as described above! I am just a bit soft and because I bought him because I wanted to event (having never done it before) and he took me Novice in my (and his) second season, I felt I owed him a bit more than the sale ring. It wasn't the cheap or easy path though, and I still doubt I will manage to do what I really want to on him, but lucky for him I like him a lot! I am keeping my eyes and ears open for something to give me experience over bigger tracks though - trainer reckons he can do it with me, and she's been right so far, but just in case I do look for other options!
 
lex2501 said:
I think we are all making the same point - temperement is key. You would be better off with a younster with a kind temprement than an experienced horse with a bad one. But that's not to say that you can't find a schoolmaster with the right heart and brain (as I have one!!)

Best of luck with your search. Take your time!
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100% agree with this. I'm on the other end of the scale to Lexi I have a baby with an amazing temperament so I am very lucky too. I've watched a lady at my yard struggle all season with an older more experienced horse which on paper looks like it would be great but it has an awful attitude and shes had a terrible season.

Best of luck
 
It's a tricky situation to answer as there are pro's and con's to both and a lot of pot luck involved along the way too. I think it also partly depends on what level you aspire to compete at.

My advice if going for a schoolmaster would be to look for one that has shown results with different riders, preferably amatuer/junior. You might have to put up with the odd training/way of going mistake but on the whole the horse should be genuine. There is the chance if you buy a pro produced horse that it is either so finely tuned that you struggle to ride it, or that the rider has masked temprement issues well. Obviously this isn't always the case at all but I think there is a higher risk taking on a pro produced horse than an amateur produced one.

With a youngster go for one that has been well produced and not massively rushed for the purpose of sale. I wouldn't be too quick to send it off to a pro full time but certainly find yourself a loacl trainer and invest heavily in training early, with you riding for the most part.

I went out earlier this year with a reasonable budget, fully intending to purchase a schoolmaster. I ended up spending half my budget on a 5yo that had done a couple of unaff shows! On the whole I've been pleased with that decision, the horse is as trainable and genuine as anyone could ever hope for. That's not to say it's been plain sailing, I've gone through a number of frustrating spells when I have been just annoyed with my own inneptitude and thinking I should have bought a schoolmaster, but if I'm honest I'd probably be like that whatever horse I'd bought! What it does mean however is that I have had a considerable budget left over to plough into training which can never be a bad thing?!

Prior to this horse I had a youngster that I purchased at 18 months and eventually sold as a 7yo having never really clicked with him.

Prior to that a horse I got from a semi/lesser known pro yard who had been ridden by their groom/WP - a talented but cheeky character with a good record but with an injury that meant he was no use to go up the grades. It was hit and miss as to whether he would be my perfect schoolmaster or a complete nightmare, thankfully it ended up the former :)

The first horse I purchased with my student loan. Oops. From a top male pro. 6yo out novice eventing. Worst mistake of my life, couldn't ride one side of the horse and he was ultra ungenuine leading to a significant loss in my confidence.
 
I couldn't afford a schoolmaster, although in reality that is what I would have wanted to and probably should have bought. Instead I bought an unbroken 4 year old, my theory being if I bought one with a nice enough nature with a bit of a jump, I could sell it on after PN and buy something with a bit more experienced if I felt inclined to go bigger.
What I have actually ended up with is a scopey, honest mare who loves her job and is willing to help out all she can, a schoolmaster in a 5 year old's body!
I got very lucky, but I'm pleased I went the way I did as I know Mal inside out from doing the work myself and she trusts me more than any horse ever has. I have a lesson once a month from Jeanette Brakewell, plus the odd lesson from a local dressage person and attend as many training clinics as I can afford!
 
kerilli said:
an honest straightforward youngster and really good regular tuition are a great combination, you learn together, and the horse won't know any different. (fwiw i've never had a schoolmaster, i've learnt with my horses and got to surprisingly levels. no idea whether i'd have gotten so far on a schoolmaster...)
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This is what I'm hoping for Kerilli! We have seen so many schoolmasters in our discipline that have got a 'quirk', are ringsour or have got other issues, especially soundness ones!

We bought a cheap 2yo and have invested the 'spare' :D money in training. The trainer has said from very early days that I need to ride the horse as much as he does - 'he has to learn to go as well for you as he does for me' and now I do the easy stuff and let the horse 'practice', as well as hacking him out and doing the things I'm experienced at - ground work and pole work, while the trainer teaches him new stuff and helps out if I hit a problem. I'm accept that I'm lucky that he is an extremely level headed, sweet youngster, but I would not have chosen a sharp one for my first real 'baby'.

The only downside that I can see with youngsters - apart from the obvious baby tantrums - is that they seem to be fairly accident prone, and get every bug going on a busy training yard :(
 
Its a bit of a difficult decision really.

I bought my mare as a 14 year old, she had been there and done everything and is extremely experienced. She has boosted my confidence and brought my riding on heaps. But then now im at the stage where I want something a little younger and more established, She's getting older and I know she wouldnt be up for competing any more. Id never sell her but having 2 would just be a night mare for me lol.

It can work both ways really, I knew I had to buy an experienced horse to get me going, at the time I wouldnt have been prepared for a youngster, but now I can see myself with something younger.

I think it all boils down to your personal circumstances, your experience, your aims etc

Hope everything works out :)
 
Tricky. I often think I would've loved to have bought a schoolmaster. I got an ex-racer on a complete gamble after watching him walk a circle. He's very talented, granted, and it went well for a couple of years but then disintegrated in a spectacular fashion and we have made little progress recently.

Had a pro been riding him for 4-5 months as I had an elbow reconstruction, and he jumped a double clear at his first 1m show, followed by being eliminated in both classes at fence 1 the following show.

Having said that, he is bred out of lines which are notorious for bad attitudes, as it were, and although he's very sweet sometimes, he just isn't really into it and can be hugely unpredictable in the kind of work he will produce or his behaviour on any given day.

I do still think we will get there, though. Slowly but surely. It will have been a lot more work than many other horses might have been but in the long run I think you probably learn more.

If, however, you can afford a genuine type schoolmaster who'll help his/her rider out of a difficult spot then I would go for it :)
 
Interesting thread. Im currently looking for a schoolmaster because if it went spectacularly wrong with a youngster I dont think Id be able to sort it out. However, this thread makes me thing perhaps Im wrong but Im not the most confident rider in the world but will jump on an unknown horse and hack him out straightaway and have hunted on a hireling so maybe Im not that bad. Its just the costs associated with bringing on a youngster that puts me off as well such as training with an instructor.
 
I'm kind of echoing what has been said before but I think what is key is attitude of the horse. I unintentionally went the youngster route (wasn't really looking for a horse bought one for OH who lost interest!). Have now backed him and produced him myself and he's jumping BN classes and was told today by knowledgeable dressage instructor/rider that I've done a good job so far which made me grin from ear to ear.
But the key has been lessons - I've now gone for the best/most qualified instructors that I can access/afford, even if I see them less often than a more 'local' person, and attitude. My young horse has a fabulous work ethic and just always wants to please - which makes life SO much easier.
I think it does depend on your ambitions too - beofre I had Roo I would have said elementary dressage and 1m SJ and XC. Now I would say I would like him to work Medium at home at least, and jump at least newcomers if not fox.....and thats all based on what I think is achievable all being well. And I'm not even close to being an experienced rider.
Chatting to dressage lady to day her point was good - that yes, many 5 year olds are 'further on' but at lest we haven't gone too far down the 'wrong' path, and taking things slowly has been key too.
However I personally don't think I would get the satisfaction from jumping a clear or a good % on a horse that someone wlse had produced....but maybe thats just me speaking from the incredibly priviledged position I am in now with such a nice young horse.
Incidentally you sound of a similar level of current competition to me - my other biy is an absolute darling and hasn't been easy by any means but he also max'd out at 90cm. And so far I've not needed to put a pro on board to get roo to exceed that level.
 
Tbh, whilst my young boy has often been very good natured, if I could do it again I would buy a schoolmaster. I am nowhere near where I wanted to be when I bought my lad as a youngster, and I can't help but be a bit jealous of riders like myself who are sat on schoolmasters and seem to be having loads of fun and achieving their goals.
 
I have friends who have brought school masters that they couldn't ride, youngsters they couldn't ride and everything inbetween. I have an ex experienced event horse who is very honest and genuine but i still fall off on a regular basis. She isn't easy to ride because she has buttons i didn't know existed and i'm still getting used to her after a year but what i will say is you have to be careful not to get a horse that is too experienced for you. There are times when my mare is far beyond me and we part company but she is genuine and her odd bucks come from simply being a very fit competitive smart horse (a match for my riding), but i'm lucky that i have lessons with the rider that has had her since a 6 yr old (she will b 17 next year) and that means any problems we have can be ironed out because my insturctor knows the horse inside out. So if it's possible to carry on having lessons with the pro who had the ride it can really help teething problems and don't expect too much too soon from an advanced ride. it takes just as long to get used to them as it does a younger model. I wouldn't ever dream of getting a youngster until i felt i had ridden enough types of horses and competed to a level that meant i knew enough, not to mention wanting a secure seat!! but this is just me, i know at my yard i've watched people buy youngsters that are lovely and genuine that they haul and yank around and upset with bad riding and i don't think that is a particularly fair start for a horse! i was lucky enough to get a horse on loan that needed a slightly quieter life so i'm really in no position to make suggestions. I hope whatever you buy works out the best :) and is lots of fun!
 
There are some very good answers here, but I do think luck, and the rider and horse clicking do play some part in it. If I tell you my story (well, Mini TX's), both play a huge part in it. We moved to our yard 5 years ago and my then 11 year old daughter got the eventing bug from our YO, who is a pro. She had lots of lessons and we ended up buying an ex JA pony which was a bit of an xc machine and had nice paces. To cut a long story short she entered 2 BEs on him and it blew his brains. He ended up going to a nice PC home and we ended up spending a five figure sum on a mare our YO had bred. She is 15.1hh, and YO and her business partner (a 4* rider and a 'name') between them and got her to PN, and she was about to take her Novice.

This mare is what I can only describe as a perfect little schoolmaster. We bought her just before her 6th birthday and she is the most forgiving little soul you could ask for - in fact I can get on her and get a nice tune out of her. She does need the right buttons pressing for dressage and is not totally push button, but xc she is a clever little minx, in fact far too dam clever.

My daughter has had the most amazing fun on her, getting her to Novice, going to the PC champs twice and winning on her, winning at Dressge at BAdminton, and numerous other competitions. Mini TX has had a bit of a torrid time in the last year or so, but its not the mare's fault. She's had a couple of nasty falls xc this year and its rocked her confidence in herself, but not the mare, who can do it all day long.

I guess we have been extremely lucky. She was the finished article at PN, and when she stepped up to Novice, it was uncharted territory. However, she has been beautifully produced, has the most lovely paces, is very, very loving and has the loveliest temperament for a mare. On top of that she is stunning to look at. I have been offered some large amounts of money for her, and most of our PC mums have cast envious glances over her. I think luck and the fact that she has a lovely relationshp with my daughter, plus a gorgeous temperamemt must play their part as well.
 
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