Buying a youngster

[umbreon]

Hi all, I'm hoping someone can help me out a bit with my dilemma.

I recently purchased my first horse, a 5 year old Welsh X. Unfortunately he's turned out to be too much for me to handle, having thrown some nasty shapes and chucking me off one too many times in such a short space of time and ending with me having a broken arm and no riding for now 6 weeks and counting. As I'm sure you can imagine, I'm absolutely devastated, I feel like such an idiot - buying the first horse I viewed, an underweight youngster with a mostly unknown history. He's done almost no jumping, and very little schooling. He is such a sweetheart and I'm very upset. We've come to the conclusion he's had some sort of history of abuse, and was not backed or started correctly. He was sold as green, but this feels beyond just green.

I've made the difficult decision to find him a new home which has experience with troubled youngsters.
I think I made the mistake of believing that because I'd ridden for a long time, I was a better rider than I thought, and that I'd be able to resolve all his problems. I started riding a good 16/17 years ago, and like to consider myself reasonably confident, and now owning my own, I'd like to step it up a gear with competing.

I'm now looking for a sensible oversized connie/Irish type, ideally around 7/8, for PC/RC and would love to go out eventing eventually. However, these horses are like gold dust.

My question is, am I a complete idiot to be looking at another youngster? I've seen a good few 5 year olds who seem to have good heads and known history. I would just hate to accredit my previous problems to his history and end up with another youngster and similar problems.

I'm not against putting in work, as long as the foundations are there with a horse who has seen a bit of the world. I would love to be able to just crack on with the work, rather than working on the complete basics.


Just hoping someone can offer some advice/their experiences.

TIA x

 

[Gloi]

Why not put him on schooling livery while you can't ride. You may have a different horse at the end of it and if you still don't feel happy on him he should be easier to sell . If there are serious problems they will confirm that too.

 

[paddi22]

I would buy an older horse. The majority of youngsters are always going to throw bucks and display testing behaviour. at times when they are unsure, especially as they go through teenage years. You also have the possibility you can embed negative reactions in them for life by not handling testing situations properly at the first sign of them. I have saints of 5 year olds that go from here, (that have happily competed at small events, that I could tell their full history,) and they can STILL go to a rider who might be nervous, and just change into a different horse totally, and issues start.

It sounds like you want a fun ride, whose personality is sane and established and an older horse sounds like a better fit. I find all horses seem to go through their worst years at 7! I find the 5 year olds easier!

 

[Gallop_Away]

Nothing wrong with buying a youngster BUT you need to have the time, knowledge and experience to get them going and more importantly KEEP them going.

I'm not suggesting you are inexperienced. I'm just saying its important to consider this before taking the plunge.

If you unknowingly purchased a youngster thats had a bad start, thats a difficult task for even the most experienced person. My husband has backed many a youngster over the years. He always said he would rather be given something totally ferral than something that has been started badly. So please don't beat yourself up over this.

Above all do your homework. Look into different studs and the general temperament of youngsters they breed. It's not fool proof but it's a good indication. I love my welsh d's and certain bloodlines are known to be fiery whereas others are generally a bit more level headed.

Also no shame in asking for help. I'm nor saying to send it away to be backed, unless of course you want to, but perhaps an experienced instructor who can come to your yard and guide you both.

Good luck!

 

[cauda equina]

Youngsters can be absolute monkeys - challenging behaviour does not necessarily mean yours has been abused
Having already had your confidence dented another young horse does not sound like the best choice.
An older horse perhaps in its teens should be easier to find and certainly cheaper than something in its prime, and would hopefully be a better fit for you

 

[Belmont]

I could have written your post last year. I bought an unbacked 3yo from Ireland in lockdown - I wanted my forever horse and wanted to do make sure everything was done right, I'd been riding over 20 years and thought I was well experienced enough. We had lots of good days, but boy could he throw some shapes when fresh! I got professional help, (initally when he was broken, then had someone out twice a week for a few months). Long story short, I decided to sell and after much deliberation, bought a 17yo schoolmaster - it was the best thing I've ever done. Friends were sending me all sorts of 5/6 year olds, but I knew I wouldn't really be able to trust anything that hadn't had much life experience. Personally I'd suggest getting something older, over 8.

 

[IrishMilo]

Not all hot / quirky horses have been abused - I think a lot of people are quick to just say 'Oh this one's a bit naughty - he MUST have been bashed around!' when some horses just are sharp, naturally anxious, or stubborn etc. I think a lot of horses get far too much leniency because people think they've been traumatised so need a soft soft slow slow hand. And while that's not wrong in some cases, I do think a well timed reprimand would do away with a hell of a lot of unwanted behaviour.

FWIW, Welshes are very, very cheeky and particularly the Welsh cobs. They're extremely sensitive but will also take the absolute mick if you let them!

 

[Boughtabay]

Not all hot / quirky horses have been abused - I think a lot of people are quick to just say 'Oh this one's a bit naughty - he MUST have been bashed around!' when some horses just are sharp, naturally anxious, or stubborn etc. I think a lot of horses get far too much leniency because people think they've been traumatised so need a soft soft slow slow hand. And while that's not wrong in some cases, I do think a well timed reprimand would do away with a hell of a lot of unwanted behaviour.

FWIW, Welshes are very, very cheeky and particularly the Welsh cobs. They're extremely sensitive but will also take the absolute mick if you let them!

I was going to say a version of this some horses just run hot and their reactions are BIGGER to “small problems” than others. In your position I’d be tempted to send him off for schooling while you’re off games, have one more go with him if he gets on well at “secondary school” and if you still don’t feel like you can trust him, you can sell him as a schooled youngster rather than still green!

Good luck

 

[Birker2020]

Hi all, I'm hoping someone can help me out a bit with my dilemma.

I recently purchased my first horse, a 5 year old Welsh X. Unfortunately he's turned out to be too much for me to handle, having thrown some nasty shapes and chucking me off one too many times in such a short space of time and ending with me having a broken arm and no riding for now 6 weeks and counting. As I'm sure you can imagine, I'm absolutely devastated, I feel like such an idiot - buying the first horse I viewed, an underweight youngster with a mostly unknown history. He's done almost no jumping, and very little schooling. He is such a sweetheart and I'm very upset. We've come to the conclusion he's had some sort of history of abuse, and was not backed or started correctly. He was sold as green, but this feels beyond just green.

I've made the difficult decision to find him a new home which has experience with troubled youngsters.
I think I made the mistake of believing that because I'd ridden for a long time, I was a better rider than I thought, and that I'd be able to resolve all his problems. I started riding a good 16/17 years ago, and like to consider myself reasonably confident, and now owning my own, I'd like to step it up a gear with competing.

I'm now looking for a sensible oversized connie/Irish type, ideally around 7/8, for PC/RC and would love to go out eventing eventually. However, these horses are like gold dust.

My question is, am I a complete idiot to be looking at another youngster? I've seen a good few 5 year olds who seem to have good heads and known history. I would just hate to accredit my previous problems to his history and end up with another youngster and similar problems.

I'm not against putting in work, as long as the foundations are there with a horse who has seen a bit of the world. I would love to be able to just crack on with the work, rather than working on the complete basics.


Just hoping someone can offer some advice/their experiences.

TIA x

I'm in the same sort of camp as you. I have also been considering a younger horse, probably 5. I think I would have to commit to regular lessons and maybe ask one of the pro riders on the yard to school it once a week for me too until I'd got the hang of it. I'm used to 'ready made' horses though.

I did have a young horse way back in 1998 but it was a mistake as I'd gone from a Grade B SJ who I'd ridden daily and who was a real schoolmaster who looked after me to a 5 year old with little schooling and definitely not a push button ride like the previous one. It was a recipe for disaster and I had no one to help me when it all went wrong. It went wrong because he started napping with me and hated schooling and SJ only liking to gallop his way round a XC course.

So what I'm saying is that if you have the right back up and appreciate that the horse will be green (and therefore you will need confidence to introduce the horse to new situations) then you should be okay. You will have to be entirely honest with yourself as to whether you have the right skill set, experience and most of all patience.

There are a few horses on Horse Quest that are young that have seen a bit of the world, jumped the odd round, been hacked out on their own, have been on a fun ride, that kind of thing.

 

[Hallo2012]

i think that jumping to the conclusion he's been abused, confirms you probably need a middle aged schoolmaster sort, sorry!

youngsters do all kinds of weird and wonderful things for no reason other than being young and green and even the most straightforward can instantly pick on rider inexperience and get upset.

 

[SEL]

i think that jumping to the conclusion he's been abused, confirms you probably need a middle aged schoolmaster sort, sorry!

youngsters do all kinds of weird and wonderful things for no reason other than being young and green and even the most straightforward can instantly pick on rider inexperience and get upset.

I thought this too - sorry!

My 5yo cob had a fabulous start in life. He came from his breeder, was backed quietly and I've been riding over 40 years with a fair amount of young horse experience.

He was an absolute monster over the weekend and bounced out on my hack this morning like he was a Spanish import instead of a baby cob.

5 is often the age where they think they know it all and test boundaries. He's doing it with my older horses in the field too and watching my pony mare put him in his place is entertaining

Go for something that is already doing the job you want to do. Your confidence has taken a knock and another youngster will be looking to you for confidence.

 

[MagicMelon]

I also dont think it sounds like hes abused as such, something with Welsh in can always be hot and testing. The horse is 5 and you admit its never jumped, never done lots of things so it just sounds super duper green like just backed. Ive been chucked off plenty of just backed horses and ponies, they usually turn into the best ones!

Personally if I were you, I wouldnt look for anything specific like a connie type. Id be very open to breed and just see what sounds good. You narrow your market so much just concentrating on that type (which also means they're pricier, connies are so expensive right now as they're the "in" breed). It also sounds like you'd benefit from something older that you can just get on and enjoy?

 

[Gallop_Away]

Started badly doesn't necessarily mean abused. It's so easy to make mistakes with a youngster, not necessarily intentionally.

 

[umbreon]

Hi everyone,

Just to update, I very much appreciate all the responses.

I am obviously a first-time owner, however feel very lucky to have been completely taken under the wing of an experienced owner, my yard owner and the manager at my stables. They all seem to believe he's throwing shapes for no reason other than to get me off (we've had all checks you can think of - I do not think it's out of pain). He has been on schooling livery for a few weeks since I've broken my arm, and they are having trouble with him too.

We had been told he actually had been abused - I haven't just come to this conclusion myself. He had been with a traveller family 2 homes before me, who the previous owner had quite literally seen him being beaten by (obviously I didn't think so much into this as I should've).

The one I've got my eye on is a 5 year old, but has come from a fantastic family who have taken him out to UA eventing, hunting, and he's placed dressage.

I'd had a few school masters on loan before, and maybe this is me being snobby, but always felt I got a bit bored with a horse that knows everything (I know no horse knows everything - but for comparison against a youngster).
I feel as though I may have undersold myself judging by the responses - but it's fabulous to hear experienced people's thoughts. Thank you all, I'll be expanding my age range search.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Agree with Hallo and sel 5 is not a good age if you want something that is not going to test boundaries or be tricky.

Look for a been there and done it type that will look after you and give you confidence.

 

[LEC]

I don’t get why you would look for a youngster when you could look for a 10 year old plus who if they pass the vetting have proven they do the job - you will have much more fun long term and have a horse for a decent amount of time and get out sooner to enjoy the stuff you want to do.

I specialise in young horses and they are rarely straightforward, will
Often have moments which with work can result in a nice horse . If they are cheap, they are cheap for a reason.

I don’t really understand why older horses are bypassed so much as IMO if still sound and x rays and medical history is good you get what you want.

 

[Gallop_Away]

OK apologies I assumed you had owned your own horse previously. Now you said you are new to horse ownership my answer changes slightly. A youngster may certainly not be the best idea for someone who is new to owning horses in general. I agree initially a nice sensible school master would be a good idea whilst you get to grips with things.

I don't mean to sound patronising whatsoever, but owning a horse of your own is completely different to riding at riding schools or sharing a friends. You need to get to grips with that before taking on a youngster who lets face it, is no easy task for even an experienced rider.

Good luck in your search.

 

[ihatework]

It’s all a bit pot luck with youngsters.
Some will be really tricky, some will be a complete and utter doddle, majority are good eggs who will have the odd blip - how those blips are dealt with can often influence the horses long term outcome.

I’d say given this recent experience buy something older, both due to being a relatively inexperienced horse owner but also don’t underestimate the impact on your confidence, last thing you need is that transmitting to another youngster.

While your arm is healing get welshy a quick vet check then ship off to schooling livery

 

[maya2008]

A 5 year old with a confident, competent rider will look beautifully schooled and beautifully behaved. Put a less experienced rider on and you cannot guarantee the same result. They very much take their confidence from the rider at that age, and do still test the boundaries. Please buy something older for your first horse. Or loan an older horse for a while then, with more experience of owning your own, buy a young one.

 

[Birker2020]

I don’t really understand why older horses are bypassed so much as IMO if still sound and x rays and medical history is good you get what you want.

I get this. My equine physio says that there's a lot to be said for an older horse in its early teens provided it's got a good competition and medical history. It shows they have stayed sound over a period if time.

 

[PeterNatt]

You would be simply crazy to buy another youngster. Buy yourself an established horse that knows his job.

 

[Gloi]

The background of a horse is a very important thing for one at any age. There are too many half broken animals out there and it is much harder to fix one than to start from scratch.

 

[SEL]

Hi everyone,

Just to update, I very much appreciate all the responses.

I am obviously a first-time owner, however feel very lucky to have been completely taken under the wing of an experienced owner, my yard owner and the manager at my stables. They all seem to believe he's throwing shapes for no reason other than to get me off (we've had all checks you can think of - I do not think it's out of pain). He has been on schooling livery for a few weeks since I've broken my arm, and they are having trouble with him too.

We had been told he actually had been abused - I haven't just come to this conclusion myself. He had been with a traveller family 2 homes before me, who the previous owner had quite literally seen him being beaten by (obviously I didn't think so much into this as I should've).

The one I've got my eye on is a 5 year old, but has come from a fantastic family who have taken him out to UA eventing, hunting, and he's placed dressage.

I'd had a few school masters on loan before, and maybe this is me being snobby, but always felt I got a bit bored with a horse that knows everything (I know no horse knows everything - but for comparison against a youngster).
I feel as though I may have undersold myself judging by the responses - but it's fabulous to hear experienced people's thoughts. Thank you all, I'll be expanding my age range search.

I guess the family who currently own the potential 5yo are pretty experienced? That's a fair amount for a 5yo to have done so I presume they have been getting him out and about ready to sell? I knew when I bought my youngster last year that the lady selling him had absolute mountains of experience (she events over jumps I can walk under) so I had to make sure that I was going to be capable enough to pick up from a rider whose talent, bravery and experience far outweighed my own. She was also local enough I knew if I was having issues I could get help. He wasn't my first young horse by a long shot either, but I'm getting old.... By comparison my lockdown project was already in double figures having had babies and was a far easier ride and she's still the one I get out of the field if I want the sort of ride where I can switch off and think about tea!

Horses from travellers often come a bit wired because they are rarely taught how to be riding ponies - they just get on them and sit the bucks. The last one I had was supposed to be a RS pony, but any loss of balance by the rider or if they lent forward to pat her she would buck. She had no idea what she was supposed to be doing so I spent a fair amount of time hacking her on the buckle before taking her in the school and then we sold her to a more experienced one on one home. There's a good book called brain, pain or training that is a useful read. Horses rarely ditch riders just to get them off - there's usually something going on. If you've had a confidence knock from this one then have a really good think about how you'd feel if you bought the other 5yo and it started to throw in a few fresh bucks or got spooky.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Go for something that is already doing the job you want to do. Your confidence has taken a knock and another youngster will be looking to you for confidence.

This ^^^

Yes, older horses are more expensive but there is a reason for that. You have had a small example of why people who produce youngsters expect you to pay them for doing it.

I'm now looking for a sensible {oversized connie/Irish} type, ideally around 7/8, for PC/RC and would love to go out eventing eventually. However, these horses are like gold dust.

Stick to that idea , even if you have to wait/save up. ( I crossed out that bit because Connies are fashionable so you'll pay less for an equally able non-fashionable breed.)

 

[LEC]

The background of a horse is a very important thing for one at any age. There are too many half broken animals out there and it is much harder to fix one than to start from scratch.

This just isn’t correct - I actually find the opposite and look at hundreds of horses a year. It’s an assumption but actually the opposite is often true. I had a discussion with a 5* eventer who is a proper horse person around young horses breaking so much and the time and effort involved. They usually break about 7/8 as when the issues normally arise due to workload and expectations. IME with ex racers and eventers if you can get them to 8/9 relatively in good shape they will last as tough enough.

Most people don’t produce youngsters properly and those that are untouched are just as likely to break. The slow way is no more successful than producing them the competition way. They are so many variables and I know a lot of homebreds who have had good upbringings who break just as much and can reel off disasters.

 

[Gloi]

This just isn’t correct - I actually find the opposite and look at hundreds of horses a year. It’s an assumption but actually the opposite is often true. I had a discussion with a 5* eventer who is a proper horse person around young horses breaking so much and the time and effort involved. They usually break about 7/8 as when the issues normally arise due to workload and expectations. IME with ex racers and eventers if you can get them to 8/9 relatively in good shape they will last as tough enough.

Most people don’t produce youngsters properly and those that are untouched are just as likely to break. The slow way is no more successful than producing them the competition way. They are so many variables and I know a lot of homebreds who have had good upbringings who break just as much and can reel off disasters.

I think you have taken what I said completely wrong. I said it is easier to train a horse from scratch than one that someone has already messed up.

 

[maya2008]

I think you have taken what I said completely wrong. I said it is easier to train a horse from scratch than one that someone has already messed up.

I think they’re right too though - a horse in pain won’t be cooperative so someone could assume it is a training issue when it isn’t. I know two people who bought youngsters who turned out to be permanently broken. In both cases it was assumed it was lack of training and thousands were spent on professional help. In the end it turned out to be pain. Hocks for one, sacroiliac for the other.

I have two who had a bad introduction to humans. One is still overcoming his terror on the ground, the other is fine now but was aggressive once. Both are completely uncomplicated ridden.

 

[LEC]

I think you have taken what I said completely wrong. I said it is easier to train a horse from scratch than one that someone has already messed up.

Most horses I see messed up in training are because people shouldn’t have bought youngsters. They should have bought an older horse. Depends on your definition of messed up. I just don’t see that in ponies or horses that if they are 10+ years old they are messed up. If they have been doing the job well for someone they will do it for someone else. I spend a significant amount of time watching a lot of RC up to 5* eventing so see the whole gamut.

 

[Gloi]

I see so many , mainly young cobs, sold to novices as quiet novice rides which they have problems with. When it comes down to it they have never been properly started just sat on by someone looking for quick money.
By the time the novice owners start realizing they need help with their pony a lot of bad habits have got engrained which would never have happened if the pony had been properly trained at the start. Some cobs have obviously had bad experiences which comes out as stress reactions and it's impossible to know what they went through in their past.

 

[#jackofallmasterofnone]

Just replying to original post, from personal experience if the aim is to step up a bit competing then maybe 5 year old isn’t the best choice - the mileage just wouldn’t be there yet in terms of reliability.

When reading ads for 5 year olds I think it’s important to consider it relative to their age. I could write a glowing ad for mine - had since 4yr old, out and about dressage, sj, xc, county shows etc. seen a good bit of the world, total doll to do in all ways and just an all round good egg (lucky me) but I would be saying all that relative to his age … barely double digits in the number of outings we have done … and there are still wobbles… sometimes he says WTF, he can still throw a nice big green jump at a new question, he’s still figuring things out and asking questions, he tries some new things now and then to see what might happen… no badness just a young horse.

They can all challenge us regardless of age or take issue at any time to anything but young horses are more likely to be a bit of a rollercoaster. I know you also mentioned not being challenged enough by schoolmasters but if the aim is to get your own horse and get out competing more then you might find that scratches the itch as you will be working towards certain things, especially when it’s your own horse and you start to make plans and set goals etc.