Buying and Selling Projects?

[Sonderstride]

Hi! I am 17, going on 18 this December. Been riding since 10 or so, most of which on green horses. I helped a trainer start and train in most of her greenies and was one of her go to people to throw on when a horse was being a bit spicy.
Then I leased a horse that was out of riding for a while and did work without a trainer.
Finally two years ago I bought a green pony who I have done all of the training on except for initially starting her. We ride tackless now and thats like one of my proudest accomplishments ever. Shes the most broke horse I’ve ridden, so many buttons.

This past year I have thought a lot more about getting a project to sell and make a little money on. My parents and several friends (one who trains as well) have told me to look into it. Id love to make some profit to put towards my personal horse but at the very least of course break even.

I know the type of horse to look for and the questions to ask etc.
Im wondering how long people tend to keep projects and how to price them when ready to sell? Buy grade or papered? What is the process of buying a project? My horse was a rescue so it was very lowkey and I just rode around in a field and got to know her a bit. I am mostly concerned for temperament, could I go to just see how they handle on the ground and watch someone else ride? Any other information, tips, or questions are all helpful!

 

[ihatework]

Are you UK based? It’s just some of the language makes me wonder if you are US

 

[Wishfilly]

What would happen if the first horse you bought didn't work out? I'm thinking worst case scenario e.g. injury in a field that leaves it unsound long term? Or something that unfortunately needed to be PTS after you had bought it for some reason? Could you afford to lose the money (plus vets bills)?

The problem with doing something like this on a small scale is that one disaster (and we all know they can happen, no matter how well you look after your horses) can completely wipe you out.

To work out how long to keep your horse, you'd need to work out your likely cost per month vs how much you could reasonably sell your horse for at that stage of its training (you'd need to do a lot of a research into your local market to work this out). Bear in mind this will likely put time pressure on you, and that may be stressful if the horse doesn't progress as you'd expect. What would you do if you hit a problem due to health or training that you couldn't sort quickly and easily?

Personally, I would look to buy in winter and be ready to sell late spring/early summer.

You'd need to pick a target market that could work for you- e.g. if you're small and light, producing children's ponies can be a good way to go. But if you end up with one that is too sharp, or not safe on the ground, that can be tricky. Would you be able to get competitive results with the horse/pony?

ETA: it is very, very different trying to do this as a business (even if you don't expect to make much money) compared to doing it under the supervision of a trainer.

 

[SEL]

The trouble with projects is they are usually a project for a reason

The pony I have in a field at the moment should have been an easy project in lockdown. She is only 8, had 2 foals and had been turned away with her last one until was a year old. Moved beautifully and there's a great market for bombproof kids ponies around us.

Except what I initially assumed was a fitness issue, then a pollen issue turns out to be the type of breathing issue that requires an operation. So no money to be made there then!

An extremely experienced friend takes off the track TBs to turn into riding horses. Her advantage is she knows the trainers so picks them up for minimal cash and only takes on the ones that have no soundness, breathing or any other known medical issue (they are just too slow to race). She also has her own yard so no livery costs. She's an good competitive rider so gets them out and about quickly, raises their profile and finds them a good home.

I suppose what I'm saying is choose which market you want to be in, be really clear about your costs and brutal with how you would deal with a project that isn't working out (I cannot be brutal which is why I have 3 unrideable horses costing me a fortune!!)

 

[Sonderstride]

Are you UK based? It’s just some of the language makes me wonder if you are US

Yes I am from the US, sorry to impose but this site is the most active on this type of stuff! ?

 

[Caol Ila]

I did it once, between finishing university and starting grad school. I was working at the barn, so I had time. Bought a horse who'd been a PMU foal, so he was cheap (OP will probably know what that means), but a reasonably decent draft cross. He was three and unbroke, but I bought him on temperament and a basic vet check. He was chilled out and curious, which meant he ought to be easy to train. He was.

Selling him sucked, however. You have to field a lot of crazies and morons, and selling green horses sucks a lot because you get a line out the door made of people who don't understand what "green horse, no novices" means. It took longer to sell him than I had anticipated, which was a bit unfortunate since I was moving from the US to the UK, and the horse ended up in full training because my parents are not remotely horsey. We upped his price, because I could say on an ad that he had "professional training," as opposed to me, but still.

Otherwise, it was a fun project and I know I can back a horse myself, which may prove useful if I buy an unbroke one for myself down the road. I don't regret it one bit, but it's a terrible way to actually make money unless you have your own land, or you have some arrangement with a barn where you're getting cheap board.

 

[ihatework]

Yes I am from the US, sorry to impose but this site is the most active on this type of stuff! ?

Ok, I asked because the UK and US will have some key differences in the market, and so posting on a UK board you just need to bear that in mind.

Ive done a few, usually stops gaps where I have had a horse off the road. My general aim is something to ride, cover their costs and break even at the end - so essentially a free hobby. I’ve managed this from all, and usually been a few hundred pounds up too (although that hasn’t factored in my time). One wasn’t a break even but it was a conscious decision and he became more than a project and stayed nearly 3 years.

My tips are

1. Know the market. When you buy a horse you need to be able to see what type of buyer will want it, and that type of buyer needs to be readily available. You need to know what prices those horses achieve, not what they are advertised for.

2. Buy green or something that can be straightened out quickly. Do not buy very tricky, you lower your odds of straightening it out sufficiently and increase your odds on the wheels falling off after sale and getting comeback.

3. Under horse yourself. You need something that you can confidently add value to. You don’t want something where you need to invest in professional help.

I have always deliberately bought geldings (despite being a mare person) because in the UK they have a bigger market. I buy types that the average amateur wants for low level competition, because I can make these all day long - I can put manners in them, get them confident in day to day activities and school them to a reasonable level. I live in hunting country so I make sure they are types the hunters might like. I don’t worry about bloodlines, I go for type.

Generally to see a profit you are talking 3-6 months, long enough to get them going, but not so long that you need to keep investing.

Consider what you will do if you get a dud. The only one I vetted was one I bought unseen. I’ve generally been ok on the vet front with them, most recent one was the only one that did need unplanned vet work but he was good enough to spend the money on. Had he been useless I might have needed to make tough decisions.

Only spend what you can afford to shoot.

Do you have any big sales websites with a wanted section? See what people are actively seeking out and what their wish list is.

 

[Sonderstride]

What would happen if the first horse you bought didn't work out? I'm thinking worst case scenario e.g. injury in a field that leaves it unsound long term? Or something that unfortunately needed to be PTS after you had bought it for some reason? Could you afford to lose the money (plus vets bills)?

The problem with doing something like this on a small scale is that one disaster (and we all know they can happen, no matter how well you look after your horses) can completely wipe you out.

To work out how long to keep your horse, you'd need to work out your likely cost per month vs how much you could reasonably sell your horse for at that stage of its training (you'd need to do a lot of a research into your local market to work this out). Bear in mind this will likely put time pressure on you, and that may be stressful if the horse doesn't progress as you'd expect. What would you do if you hit a problem due to health or training that you couldn't sort quickly and easily?

Personally, I would look to buy in winter and be ready to sell late spring/early summer.

You'd need to pick a target market that could work for you- e.g. if you're small and light, producing children's ponies can be a good way to go. But if you end up with one that is too sharp, or not safe on the ground, that can be tricky. Would you be able to get competitive results with the horse/pony?

ETA: it is very, very different trying to do this as a business (even if you don't expect to make much money) compared to doing it under the supervision of a trainer.

Absolutely. I don’t expect it to be easy at all. I have cried during lessons, about lease horses, and about my own horse. But I’m stubborn, I’ve mostly had the “privilege” of working with stubborn horses. My trainer really knew how to pick them... I’m not immune to it but I’m used to it and can truck along.
The market around here is pretty decent, especially for ranch and trail horses. I have a barn picked out and could potentially move them to my dads property if time and money was short. The only reason I wouldn’t in the first place is I couldn't get out there everyday.
I do have access to a couple trainers, some friends, some old trainers who taught me.
I could afford a loss and have some backup plans if something were to happen and can accept the fact that sometimes that’s life.

Im on so many horse groups on FB, sane pleasure, trail, ranch horses sell for $3k plus consistently. Im also close with people who do this type of stuff, buy or sell horses, or watch for other people and they know the market pretty well.
So I do have connections for help and will definitely be using them. We are discussing with our current horses vet on their opinions

 

[Sonderstride]

The trouble with projects is they are usually a project for a reason

The pony I have in a field at the moment should have been an easy project in lockdown. She is only 8, had 2 foals and had been turned away with her last one until was a year old. Moved beautifully and there's a great market for bombproof kids ponies around us.

Except what I initially assumed was a fitness issue, then a pollen issue turns out to be the type of breathing issue that requires an operation. So no money to be made there then!

An extremely experienced friend takes off the track TBs to turn into riding horses. Her advantage is she knows the trainers so picks them up for minimal cash and only takes on the ones that have no soundness, breathing or any other known medical issue (they are just too slow to race). She also has her own yard so no livery costs. She's an good competitive rider so gets them out and about quickly, raises their profile and finds them a good home.

I suppose what I'm saying is choose which market you want to be in, be really clear about your costs and brutal with how you would deal with a project that isn't working out (I cannot be brutal which is why I have 3 unrideable horses costing me a fortune!!)

This is very helpful. I am definitely reaching out to the people I know to find horses and get help in the future if I need it, which I probably will. Everyone does. There are definitely unhealthy horses around here and I won’t act like I am immune to getting a horse with medical issues but around here we have a lot of hardy horses. I am also speaking to several vets to get some information from them to avoid those issues which of course are the biggest risk. Thank you!

 

[Sonderstride]

I did it once, between finishing university and starting grad school. I was working at the barn, so I had time. Bought a horse who'd been a PMU foal, so he was cheap (OP will probably know what that means), but a reasonably decent draft cross. He was three and unbroke, but I bought him on temperament and a basic vet check. He was chilled out and curious, which meant he ought to be easy to train. He was.

Selling him sucked, however. You have to field a lot of crazies and morons, and selling green horses sucks a lot because you get a line out the door made of people who don't understand what "green horse, no novices" means. It took longer to sell him than I had anticipated, which was a bit unfortunate since I was moving from the US to the UK, and the horse ended up in full training because my parents are not remotely horsey. We upped his price, because I could say on an ad that he had "professional training," as opposed to me, but still.

Otherwise, it was a fun project and I know I can back a horse myself, which may prove useful if I buy an unbroke one for myself down the road. I don't regret it one bit, but it's a terrible way to actually make money unless you have your own land, or you have some arrangement with a barn where you're getting cheap board.

Absolutely. I mostly want it as a project but if I cant break even im less interested, though I can afford the loss. I have a ton of time right now. I train and walk dogs atm in the early mornings, school even without covid is mostly online. Im a person who doesnt see barn chores as work and have worked for lessons and lease in the past before and the barn I’m looking at is inexpensive enough, especially if I can knock some off.
Thank you )

 

[LittleGreyMare]

Do you have time for two? I personally enjoy one horse more. Something I didn’t realise until I had two.

 

[Sonderstride]

Ok, I asked because the UK and US will have some key differences in the market, and so posting on a UK board you just need to bear that in mind.

Ive done a few, usually stops gaps where I have had a horse off the road. My general aim is something to ride, cover their costs and break even at the end - so essentially a free hobby. I’ve managed this from all, and usually been a few hundred pounds up too (although that hasn’t factored in my time). One wasn’t a break even but it was a conscious decision and he became more than a project and stayed nearly 3 years.

My tips are

1. Know the market. When you buy a horse you need to be able to see what type of buyer will want it, and that type of buyer needs to be readily available. You need to know what prices those horses achieve, not what they are advertised for.

2. Buy green or something that can be straightened out quickly. Do not buy very tricky, you lower your odds of straightening it out sufficiently and increase your odds on the wheels falling off after sale and getting comeback.

3. Under horse yourself. You need something that you can confidently add value to. You don’t want something where you need to invest in professional help.

I have always deliberately bought geldings (despite being a mare person) because in the UK they have a bigger market. I buy types that the average amateur wants for low level competition, because I can make these all day long - I can put manners in them, get them confident in day to day activities and school them to a reasonable level. I live in hunting country so I make sure they are types the hunters might like. I don’t worry about bloodlines, I go for type.

Generally to see a profit you are talking 3-6 months, long enough to get them going, but not so long that you need to keep investing.

Consider what you will do if you get a dud. The only one I vetted was one I bought unseen. I’ve generally been ok on the vet front with them, most recent one was the only one that did need unplanned vet work but he was good enough to spend the money on. Had he been useless I might have needed to make tough decisions.

Only spend what you can afford to shoot.

Do you have any big sales websites with a wanted section? See what people are actively seeking out and what their wish list is.

Exactly what I was looking for and these are definitely things I have laid out and considered.
i know the market around here fairly well but have friends that know it far better than i

I definitely wasnt planning to get a tough horse. Especially for the first one I want to make sure it wasnt too much. Easy disposition, kind, basic stuff without much if any fuss. Something someone just doesnt have time for or cant afford.

I am strictly a mare person too but geldings sell way easier, especially smaller horses.
for my max buying price and minimum selling price it allows 5 months to break even
I havent yet discussed everything as far as vetting goes, having a more in depth discussion with my horses vet on their opinions. Horses around here tend to be very hardy esp the grade ones plus i would definitely want to meet them, make sure they are a horse i can handle, look at their build, movements etc etc

this was very helpful, thank you lots!

 

[Sonderstride]

Do you have time for two? I personally enjoy one horse more. Something I didn’t realise until I had two.

Two projects? I have two horses right now. One is my personal horse, one is a friends we are keeping at our place and ride occasionally. Theyve both become too easy! Mine is more fun, she has a lot of buttons. Wish i could have two cause i love to work but i dont want to jump in too fast.

 

[Caol Ila]

There's something universal about selling horses -- doesn't matter what country you're in. Lots of people who are batsh*r crazy.

When was project-hunting, I first went to a breeder (Fjord) and looked at one lovely little three-year old mare with stringhalt. My vet told me to run fast and far. Then I went to a QH breeder and rode two five-year olds, a mare and a gelding, who were already broke but also lovely and outwith my budget. The already broke part defeated the purpose of the exercises. They were also the nicest QHs I've ever seen, and the breeder had done a terrific job bringing them on, and I would not have wanted to sell it. Finally, I went to the barn of someone who bought PMU babies at auction and sold them on. She had a herd of unbroke youngstock, draft crosses, and I put each horse in the round pen and free lunged it a bit to assess its temperament. The one I bought was the one who did not give a damn that he was away from his mates and was more interested in me than in screaming his head off. Like you, I'm a mare person and would be more likely to buy a mare for myself, but if you're buying a project to train and sell on, it doesn't matter.

A word of warning: setting a time frame never works. Training it may take longer than you think, there may be setbacks, and even if that goes well, selling youngsters takes longer than you think. The market for well-broke horses always, always, always exceeds the market for greenies, unless you're buying super talented, athletic prospects. Not that many people want to or should bring on a young horse. When I had my project on the market (in Colorado), I used to joke around about keeping him and selling my horse, who was 12 or 13 at the time, and very well trained. She would have gone in seconds, because she was (and still is, despite being 27) the sort of horse everyone and their dog was looking for. If you can keep your greenie until it's 7 or 8 and has done lots of things...that's where the market is. But to make that pay, it would need to be nice enough to sell for a solid five figures. My baby horse was a grade draft cross, and he didn't. No money was made on him. And I'd given myself about 18 months in total, from initial purchase to me leaving the country. He sold a *year* after I'd moved abroad. At that point, he was about 6 and my trainer had showed him a bit. In other words, he was much more in line with where the market for horses like him is.

That all said, if you find a small, TB type with that daisy cutting movement and a decent jump, you can sell it as a hunter for a gazillion dollars.

 

[fredflop]

If you are experienced, you may just be able to pick something up from a kill pen that’s suitable.

 

[Sonderstride]

I have considered that as well. My pony was originally a kill pen pony and someone grabbed her and sent her to the rescue I got her at.

 

[maya2008]

I would agree with buy green but make sure there are no issues at all from previous training or anything. I bought one years ago, learned loads but she turned out to have a medical issue (Pssm) and I couldn’t sell her. She has had sharers to help pay for her keep and she has proven amazing to lead youngsters or children off. Now she is older she babysits my kids and is so good with them. I don’t regret buying her at all, but I did end up having to keep her when that wasn’t the original plan!