buying from the breeder....

[stormox]

Do people consider this to be an advantage? or not? I always thought it would be good, better than a dealer or private home. Now Im not so sure. Although obviously there are good breeders and bad breeders, just like theres good dealers and bad dealers.
A few years back I went to see a breeder who had a good selection of his stock for sale I was somewhat perturbed to find NONE of the broken 4-6 year olds had EVER been off the quiet farm, so had seen nothing. I did buy an unbroken 5 yr old, but she was always anxious about leaving her herd, hacking alone, and never got used to heavy traffic. I think she should have been out and about sooner, a bit like socializing a puppy,it needs to be done at a reasonably early age.
So after that I bought my youngsters from youngstock producer/dealers and never had any bother as theyd been to sales, changed hands, sometimes in and sometimes out. They had a bit of life experience.
But recently I have been to a few breeders, and all seem to have horses of 5 or 6,unbroken, never seen anything, never been anywhere apart from the place where they were born. Why would they want to keep them so long without doing anything with them?
So I am steering away from any advert that says 'direct from breeder' - I think youngstock needs to be educated about life around 3 or 4 years old.

 

[OWLIE185]

You are quite correct Stormox. There are far too many people breeding horses these days that do not expose them and de-sensitise them to the world around them.
This is why there are so many horses out there that can not be taken out of an arena or indoor school because they are completely terrified of being outside that environment.

In my opinion all horses by the age of three should have been routinely and regularly exposed to farm machinery (including combine harvesters), heavy goods vehicles, double decker and single decker buses, cars, motorbikes, cycles, helicopters, fixed wing aircraft, trains, hot air balloons, umbrellas, skate boards, plastic bags and plastic flapping from scaffolding, gunshots, gas gun bird scarers, dogs, pigs, deer, goats, ostriches, pheasants, partridges, drain covers and should be taken down the verges of busy dual carriageways.

If this was done routinely with young horses then people would not have the problems that we regularly see on this forum with horses being scared of things.

 

[tallyho!]

Yes I think you have to know what you want when buying from a breeder or you want a weanling having seen the dam/sire/grand...

I think most horses can be desensitised/acclimatised to life with humans that like to "do stuff" no matter the age - you just have to be aware you need to do it.

Main buyers from breeders will be producers. That's how it works in theory. However, having the bottom fall out of the horse market, it's just not happening anymore. The general public WILL now go to the breeder as they will be cheaper as they will not have been "produced" - but seem to expect a finished article still.

I think if you go o a breeder to buy, you need to go in looking for a horse that you are going to have to put that work into... some will have done the basics and will have taken their best stock to outings.

There ARE too many breeders though, I have to agree with that.

 

[be positive]

I think there are several different types of breeders, the ones that do it because it is their life, they are passionate about the breed or type they produce and they are the ones to buy from, most will be well but not over produced, will be confident ready to go on to a new life.

There are those that do it because they have a few mares and don't know what else to do so start breeding then get too many to know what to do so they miss out on the basics or just concentrate on one or two, and then there are the breeders who breed randomly from a mix of mares often running with a colt or two, have so many they never even touch most of them, these are the type flooding the market and pulling the prices down for the responsible breeders who do things properly.

I would buy from a breeder and have in the past but would always choose a reputable stud breeding from quality stock of the type I want, I would expect it to be registered with breed passport, well handled for it's age and know that I would see what I expected when I went to view and that the breeder would also know which horse was which.

 

[popsdosh]

You are quite correct Stormox. There are far too many people breeding horses these days that do not expose them and de-sensitise them to the world around them.
This is why there are so many horses out there that can not be taken out of an arena or indoor school because they are completely terrified of being outside that environment.

In my opinion all horses by the age of three should have been routinely and regularly exposed to farm machinery (including combine harvesters), heavy goods vehicles, double decker and single decker buses, cars, motorbikes, cycles, helicopters, fixed wing aircraft, trains, hot air balloons, umbrellas, skate boards, plastic bags and plastic flapping from scaffolding, gunshots, gas gun bird scarers, dogs, pigs, deer, goats, ostriches, pheasants, partridges, drain covers and should be taken down the verges of busy dual carriageways.

If this was done routinely with young horses then people would not have the problems that we regularly see on this forum with horses being scared of things.

Get real , that is really the responsibility of the people backing and taking on youngsters ,most of the horses on here frightened by things invariably come about because the people taking them on are to nervous of those situations themselves .How much time do you think breeders have spare to do this lol. All mine are brought up on the farm and nothings off limits to them they get handled . getting them out in traffic is not my job and honestly one safer performed under saddle by a competent rider not one who is more frightened than the horse is. Have you seriously not heard of over handling youngstock they should grow up as horses not start work to soon.

 

[stormox]

Get real , that is really the responsibility of the people backing and taking on youngsters ,most of the horses on here frightened by things invariably come about because the people taking them on are to nervous of those situations themselves .How much time do you think breeders have spare to do this lol. All mine are brought up on the farm and nothings off limits to them they get handled . getting them out in traffic is not my job and honestly one safer performed under saddle by a competent rider not one who is more frightened than the horse is. Have you seriously not heard of over handling youngstock they should grow up as horses not start work to soon.

Yes but so many breeders seem to have unbroken 5, 6 or 7 year olds that have never been away from their secure herd. IMHO if a breeder hasnt sold their youngstock at 3 or at the maximum 4 years of age to a producer or knowledgeable home, they should be responsible enough not to breed any more until they have had the older ones out and about and sold.

 

[popsdosh]

Yes but so many breeders seem to have unbroken 5, 6 or 7 year olds that have never been away from their secure herd. IMHO if a breeder hasnt sold their youngstock at 3 or at the maximum 4 years of age to a producer or knowledgeable home, they should be responsible enough not to breed any more until they have had the older ones out and about and sold.

Most good producers would not buy at those ages anyhow ,nearly all mine are backed before their sold or go only to producers I trust, however if anybody thinks leading a two or three year old anywhere near a busy road is a good idea its not its a disaster ready to happen. The reason there are 5,6 and seven year olds still unbroken is lack of a viable alternative outlet even if you stop breeding it doesnt clear them out of the system however I dont know many breeders quite silly enough to keep breeding with lots of older horses about unbroken ,most have the brain power to sort that one out.

 

[OWLIE185]

I must disagree with Poshdosh.
The true travellers for instance would tie the young horses to the rear or side of their caravans so that they were exposed to loads of different things but in the company of the horses puling the caravans.
I know of breeders that walk their young stuck down the side of a dual carriageway to the pub to get them used to heavy vehicles etc.
I do not believe it would overload a young horse by getting them familiar with all the things suggested in my post above.
It is definitely far harder to do the older the horse gets.

 

[tallyho!]

Yes but so many breeders seem to have unbroken 5, 6 or 7 year olds that have never been away from their secure herd. IMHO if a breeder hasnt sold their youngstock at 3 or at the maximum 4 years of age to a producer or knowledgeable home, they should be responsible enough not to breed any more until they have had the older ones out and about and sold.

That doesn't really matter, and it shouldn't. A horse that has a good temperament will be able to handle all that.

As an example, and I know I mention it lots, the BLM round up and sell hundreds of horses from the wild. The ones that get sold on get accustomed to domestic life and make exceptionally good horses. As do our Mountain & Moorland breeds - some of those don't encounter so much as a road.

I'm on the fence as to whether or not your average breeder is obliged to get their horses out and about. Not all of them have the facilities or the staff. It's hard to build up a reputation and keep it. To do a rush job is almost worse than not doing anything at all. Those that breed good horses and are reknowned, we never hear of them as they supply the producers and people who know what they are looking for and probably won't look at older horses.

Having said that, I've a couple from a breeder that are bought and backed late and are way better than the ones backed at 3. But I'm not a producer. If I was, I'd be buying a 2/3yo to bring on and show with a view to selling on as a 4yo ready for competition.. sad, but that's what they do.

 

[TheMule]

All of my best horses have come from their breeders, I prefer them to have basic handling and to have had a nice life with good nutrition but I've never had a problem with them not having seen enough, even when they've never been away from home. Far prefer them to ones people have screwed up through doing it wrong

 

[respectedpony driver]

I knew a pony breeder once that as soon as youngsters could lead she rode her pony and led the youngster to see everything,first on the inside and then on the outside,she always had a waiting list because her ponies really were bomb proof.

 

[be positive]

You are quite correct Stormox. There are far too many people breeding horses these days that do not expose them and de-sensitise them to the world around them.
This is why there are so many horses out there that can not be taken out of an arena or indoor school because they are completely terrified of being outside that environment.

In my opinion all horses by the age of three should have been routinely and regularly exposed to farm machinery (including combine harvesters), heavy goods vehicles, double decker and single decker buses, cars, motorbikes, cycles, helicopters, fixed wing aircraft, trains, hot air balloons, umbrellas, skate boards, plastic bags and plastic flapping from scaffolding, gunshots, gas gun bird scarers, dogs, pigs, deer, goats, ostriches, pheasants, partridges, drain covers and should be taken down the verges of busy dual carriageways.

If this was done routinely with young horses then people would not have the problems that we regularly see on this forum with horses being scared of things.

If all breeders had time to spend doing this with every young horse then the horses would be priced beyond most normal people, they should be introduced to the basics of life but the list above is a totally unrealistic expectation for most people, I am not a breeder but do produce youngsters and would prefer them to have done very little before they get started under saddle, some of the worst to deal with have been the over handled desensitised youngsters that have done too much too young, far better to introduce things as and when they are ready, to build up their experience and confidence over time.
In many areas there are no dual carriageways and I am not sure it is responsible behaviour to be leading a young horse on the verges beside them, where I live there are no double decker buses, not many single decker ones either, to try and find everything on your list would be a struggle, there are no ostrich farms nearby although we do have an airstrip almost next door so see light planes regularly.

People would have fewer issues if they were more realistic about their capabilities and did not buy a horse they were not able to bring on, if they were prepared to pay a more realistic price for a well produced horse of any age and got help before everything had gone completely pear shaped, I have had "problem" horses in for schooling and more often than not it is nothing to do with the horse being badly started and everything to do with the owner taking on more than they were prepared for and not getting appropriate help early enough.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I would have no problem taking on a 4/5/6/7you unbroken horse. So long as it had had basic handling so you could catch it and lead it about a bit.

We still have 2 of our last homebreds here. A 7yo and a 9yo. Both have been to the odd show, both have been backed - if you can call it that (I get bored when not working so tack them up and expect them to get on with the job, which they invariably do!) we stopped breeding as there is no market for them at the moment, not for the prices they should be based on their bloodlines.

As for expecting Breeders to do all and sundry with their youngsters that it's totally unrealistic! You would end up with over handled brats! I've dealt with a few! Id much rather have a youngster from a stud that hasn't done much than someone's overgrown pet!

 

[rowan666]

I agree in principle OP, 3 if my current 4 are straight from breeder, 2 of which were exposed to heavy traffic from a very young age and are totally bomproof in all traffic but my sec A was 4yrs old when we bought him and had litterally never left the very quiet yard he was born on, infact I think he rarely left his stable and as a result he has been rather challenging at times, he will not be stabled since having his freedom living out and he totally freaks out in heavy traffic still after 3 years of trying but he is the best kids pony ever when he's in his comfort zone, even hacking and showing but if there's traffic then forget it.
Regardless I would always prefer to buy direct from the breeder as I like to produce youngsters myself and to know their whole history and that they've never been 'misshandled' even if unhandled is huge plus point for me

 

[JanetGeorge]

lol, and bankrupt breeders! My youngsters get to know tractors early - their Mums rush to the tractor (that is bringing food) when foals are out from 2-3 days old. Foals follow - tractors are GOOD. We have dogs running around the fields - the mares chase them out - so THEY'RE not frightening - you can see them off! We have shoots on all 4 boundaries - so bangs don't matter. And on a flight path - so choppers and fighter jets are part of the scenery.

Once they're weaned - a chance to re-inforce basic manners and leading, they're out. They're visited twice a day - with feed when needed. They're brought in every 8-10 weeks for worming and foot trimming. That's about it except for occasionally bringing them in for 2-3 days to be IN a stable politely, and have manes and tails tidied. They're used to me going into the field, wandering around clearing up haylage wrappers and having the odd pat or 3. Any more than that they'd be all over you - and they're too big for that. And you'd have to sell them for £10,000 plus to return your costs and the NMW!

 

[zaminda]

I bought my mare as an unhalter broken 4 1/2 year old. She was very easy to do, and has never looked at anything. Possibly because I wasn't frightened of anything and no one had wrecked her. I would do it again.

 

[Rowreach]

This is why there are so many horses out there that can not be taken out of an arena or indoor school because they are completely terrified of being outside that environment..

No, that is usually the riders. All my youngsters, as soon as they are backed, go hacking hacking hacking and hardly ever go in an arena until their second year of being ridden. But trying to get clients to take their young horses hacking is a nightmare. They (the riders) like the "safety" of the arena.

 

[popsdosh]

I must disagree with Poshdosh.
The true travellers for instance would tie the young horses to the rear or side of their caravans so that they were exposed to loads of different things but in the company of the horses puling the caravans.
I know of breeders that walk their young stuck down the side of a dual carriageway to the pub to get them used to heavy vehicles etc.
I do not believe it would overload a young horse by getting them familiar with all the things suggested in my post above.
It is definitely far harder to do the older the horse gets.

Maybe its why some on here have a lot more dramas than others, you are obviously an expert and I have learnt nothing in all my years breeding competition horses. The age of the horse has very little to do with how it copes in the wide world but a hell of a lot to do with the person introducing it. I think from the replies so far screwing up young horses through over handling is more common than you may accept.
The travellers also are in the habit of driving yearlings ,I guess you condone that as well along with culling colts in large numbers. They had to tie them to their caravans not to desensitise them but to take them with them from pitch to pitch.

 

[popsdosh]

No, that is usually the riders. All my youngsters, as soon as they are backed, go hacking hacking hacking and hardly ever go in an arena until their second year of being ridden. But trying to get clients to take their young horses hacking is a nightmare. They (the riders) like the "safety" of the arena.

Yes hacking is indeed the best education any horse can have in the hands of a half decent rider. Most youngsters get so sour after arena, arena,arena no wonder they play up. To me having been on this planet longer than some the proliferation of schools has been completely to the detriment of horses . We used to compete up to a reasonable level eventing with no school at all and all the schooling work was done on hacks but young riders would never dream to try without a school nowadays.

 

[WelshD]

I bought my five year old riding pony mare direct from her breeder recently

I went to view a 3 year old but this older one caught my eye and heart. She wasn't really for sale, I think she was a bit of a favourite of the breeder hence her still being there at that age - I certainly didn't see it as suspicious

The mare had seen only a small bit of the world but has been brilliant so far, absolutely rock steady with the breaking in process despite not having been far from the stud in her life, new things are accepted with no question - I think the breeder struck a great balance between gentle education and leaving them to grow on

Of course a good attitude and temperament must play a part I guess!

 

[millitiger]

Ime in 99% of cases the rider makes the horse.

If your horse is scared of traffic or indoor school or jumps, generally it's because the rider is.

If your horse is a pain in the arse to leave in the stable or lead or clip, generally it's because the handler made it that way.

Many people have good intentions but tend to make horses their own and give them strengths and weaknesses.

I've had horses handled from foals and horses never handled until 5 or 6 and all have turned out as expected, with the strengths and weaknesses I have given them.

So many people on here and in general like to blame the last owner for their horses issues- the breeder didn't get it out to shows, someone 2 years ago used draw reins once, someone used a lunge whip to load their scared horse- just get on with it and deal with the horse in front of you instead of making excuses for your failures as a horse trainer.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

lol, and bankrupt breeders! My youngsters get to know tractors early - their Mums rush to the tractor (that is bringing food) when foals are out from 2-3 days old. Foals follow - tractors are GOOD. We have dogs running around the fields - the mares chase them out - so THEY'RE not frightening - you can see them off! We have shoots on all 4 boundaries - so bangs don't matter. And on a flight path - so choppers and fighter jets are part of the scenery.

Once they're weaned - a chance to re-inforce basic manners and leading, they're out. They're visited twice a day - with feed when needed. They're brought in every 8-10 weeks for worming and foot trimming. That's about it except for occasionally bringing them in for 2-3 days to be IN a stable politely, and have manes and tails tidied. They're used to me going into the field, wandering around clearing up haylage wrappers and having the odd pat or 3. Any more than that they'd be all over you - and they're too big for that. And you'd have to sell them for £10,000 plus to return your costs and the NMW!

Now these are the youngsters I like! Ones that have had just enough done with them to not be scared of humans but equally not to be in your pockets scrounging.

No, that is usually the riders. All my youngsters, as soon as they are backed, go hacking hacking hacking and hardly ever go in an arena until their second year of being ridden. But trying to get clients to take their young horses hacking is a nightmare. They (the riders) like the "safety" of the arena.

I find this too! It's not the horses that are scared, it's the riders. And you pluck them out of the arena to take them on a hack, the horse faffs about due to a combination of finally going somewhere new and the rider pooping their pants!

I don't have an arena. Mine are all schooled in the field with other ponies wandering loose around. If either I or the horse gets bored then we play round up the ponies lol! I don't hack out much most of the year due to the road that I live on being dangerous. I am ok when the stubble fields next door are around though!

 

[PeterNatt]

Yes hacking is indeed the best education any horse can have in the hands of a half decent rider. Most youngsters get so sour after arena, arena,arena no wonder they play up. To me having been on this planet longer than some the proliferation of schools has been completely to the detriment of horses . We used to compete up to a reasonable level eventing with no school at all and all the schooling work was done on hacks but young riders would never dream to try without a school nowadays.

I must agree with the above.

 

[eggs]

Ime in 99% of cases the rider makes the horse.

If your horse is scared of traffic or indoor school or jumps, generally it's because the rider is.

If your horse is a pain in the arse to leave in the stable or lead or clip, generally it's because the handler made it that way.

Many people have good intentions but tend to make horses their own and give them strengths and weaknesses.

I've had horses handled from foals and horses never handled until 5 or 6 and all have turned out as expected, with the strengths and weaknesses I have given them.

So many people on here and in general like to blame the last owner for their horses issues- the breeder didn't get it out to shows, someone 2 years ago used draw reins once, someone used a lunge whip to load their scared horse- just get on with it and deal with the horse in front of you instead of making excuses for your failures as a horse trainer.

Agree with this. Would also add that the horse's personality also plays a part. I've bred a number of foals who have all been brought up the same way and some are naturally bold and take everything in their stride whilst others are a little more suspicious of things.

 

[Peter7917]

Youngsters that have had minimal handling IMO make better animals to work with.

As a teenager I brought a colt. I still have him now(gelded!!) however he was soooo over handled. I love him dearly but he really is an over handled brat. He has absolutely no fear of people. You could walk in his field, climb up his tail, do a hand stand on his back etc etc and he will just stand there like a humanised doughnut. But as a result, he is like a spoilt child.

 

[Crackerz]

You are quite correct Stormox. There are far too many people breeding horses these days that do not expose them and de-sensitise them to the world around them.
This is why there are so many horses out there that can not be taken out of an arena or indoor school because they are completely terrified of being outside that environment.

In my opinion all horses by the age of three should have been routinely and regularly exposed to farm machinery (including combine harvesters), heavy goods vehicles, double decker and single decker buses, cars, motorbikes, cycles, helicopters, fixed wing aircraft, trains, hot air balloons, umbrellas, skate boards, plastic bags and plastic flapping from scaffolding, gunshots, gas gun bird scarers, dogs, pigs, deer, goats, ostriches, pheasants, partridges, drain covers and should be taken down the verges of busy dual carriageways.

If this was done routinely with young horses then people would not have the problems that we regularly see on this forum with horses being scared of things.

You actually really think that??

If all breeders did that they would have to at least triple the selling price of any animal they currently sell - which would price most people out of buying a youngster in the first place.

The best horses i have had have been those NOT shown 'life' by someone else before me, whatever their age. It is not the breeders responsibility to do all that, it is however the breeders responsibility to only sell to someone who they believe is confident in doing everything.

When i buy from a breeder, one of the attractive parts to me is that no one has done all that to them.

 

[Maesfen]

You actually really think that??

If all breeders did that they would have to at least triple the selling price of any animal they currently sell - which would price most people out of buying a youngster in the first place.

The best horses i have had have been those NOT shown 'life' by someone else before me, whatever their age. It is not the breeders responsibility to do all that, it is however the breeders responsibility to only sell to someone who they believe is confident in doing everything.

When i buy from a breeder, one of the attractive parts to me is that no one has done all that to them.

From a thread that has had me exploding at the sheer arrogance of some posters, this one and those by Be P, Pops, the Mule, Janet have made me calm down a bit but the heart's still hammering.

When you've put your all into breeding decent nice types from good stock, you're a one man band whose sales finance the keeping of the stock left then you do not have any spare money to get horses out and about even if you had the time and opportunity - which I don't.
That does not mean my stock aren't handled well and from new owners, past and present, have taken everything in their stride but then I'm careful enough with my treasures to only sell them to people I know are experienced in properly handling youngsters and able to take them on into the next stage of their life.
I didn't breed mine for idiots to ruin and that's one reason why I am now down to my last three year old left to sell - because there are far too many idiots about now expecting far too much from young horses, as this thread shows.
I'm glad to be out of breeding but I still take an awful lot of pleasure from seeing my 'babies' eventing, showing, hunting and show jumping very well and also just plain being a best friend happy hacker for someone. I certainly know I haven't let my horses down by not having them out and about at a young age but I've forgotten how many new owners have said their farriers and vets all remark how easy to handle my youngsters have been plus that they've been backed and ridden away without any problems because they were able and ready to do the work asked of them, they hadn't been over-faced before then or handled by an idiot.
I might not have bred any world beaters but I've bred nice natured, attractive horses that have gone on to give years of pleasure to their owners in spite of minimal 'adventure training' - and that's ok, I'm happy with that.
Save horses (and breeders) from idiots who think they know it all might be my new pet saying.

 

[honetpot]

If you are breeding a good quality animal not many people will pay a price that covers the cost of producing the foal when weaned at 6months, never mind making a profit on it. So if you have the space you run them on until they are four. Very few people want to buy animals between the ages of one and four, it seems that the art of breaking and bringing on a young horse as just about died out. I am no longer thin or agile enough to break them in. They have the very basics done at three at home and at four I send them away to be broken, this crop are a bit later as we have had other things going on, but broken at four plus you can usually sell quickly. You do not really make a profit if you work out all your costs properly.
Whilst growing up them are wormed, see the farrier every 8 weeks and have general basic handling but they basically live out , with the odd trip out. One that has never left the farm is now hacking out confidently though the village broken this year at five.
If their basic temperament is good and they have positive experiences with confident sensible handling all go on to have productive lives. There are far more problems with people and their half baked ideas than there are with the animals themselves.

 

[Pinkvboots]

You are quite correct Stormox. There are far too many people breeding horses these days that do not expose them and de-sensitise them to the world around them.
This is why there are so many horses out there that can not be taken out of an arena or indoor school because they are completely terrified of being outside that environment.

In my opinion all horses by the age of three should have been routinely and regularly exposed to farm machinery (including combine harvesters), heavy goods vehicles, double decker and single decker buses, cars, motorbikes, cycles, helicopters, fixed wing aircraft, trains, hot air balloons, umbrellas, skate boards, plastic bags and plastic flapping from scaffolding, gunshots, gas gun bird scarers, dogs, pigs, deer, goats, ostriches, pheasants, partridges, drain covers and should be taken down the verges of busy dual carriageways.

If this was done routinely with young horses then people would not have the problems that we regularly see on this forum with horses being scared of things.

sorry but that is a really unrealistic view it is not a breeders responsibility to expose the horses they breed to all that you list, where on earth would you even find an ostrich I for one have never seen one apart from in a zoo, my horses are 11 and 12 and haven't come across half of the things you have listed and probably never likely to either.

 

[Maesfen]

You are quite correct Stormox. There are far too many people breeding horses these days that do not expose them and de-sensitise them to the world around them.
This is why there are so many horses out there that can not be taken out of an arena or indoor school because they are completely terrified of being outside that environment.

In my opinion all horses by the age of three should have been routinely and regularly exposed to farm machinery (including combine harvesters), heavy goods vehicles, double decker and single decker buses, cars, motorbikes, cycles, helicopters, fixed wing aircraft, trains, hot air balloons, umbrellas, skate boards, plastic bags and plastic flapping from scaffolding, gunshots, gas gun bird scarers, dogs, pigs, deer, goats, ostriches, pheasants, partridges, drain covers and should be taken down the verges of busy dual carriageways.

If this was done routinely with young horses then people would not have the problems that we regularly see on this forum with horses being scared of things.

This HAS to be the stupidest post on here. Unbelievable and shows how far removed we have become from sensible horse people.