Calling all coloured-horse owners

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Crosshill Pacers

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This is very unlike me to post two threads in one day, but a situation has just arisen whereby I've been inspired to write an article for the STAGBI newsletter.

In very basic terms, I would like to know: How much white is needed on a horse before you would deem it to be skewbald/piebald? Pictures are welcome to help illustrate.

Anybody who knows anything about colour genetics and that sort of thing, I would be really grateful for your thoughts on this as well. Is it possible for a horse to be born with white patches where there is no 'colour' in its pedigree?

Thanks for your help, my basic Google searches haven't thrown much up yet due to work filters so I will do some more research tonight when I get home. Just thought I'd ask the experts first ;)
 
Any patch of white hair on the body above the stifle (excluding dapples, different colours in mane/tail and facial markings)

If you go onto the CHAPS website they have lots of info on there. ;)

ets: link to chaps info: http://www.chapsuk.com/aboutus.asp

It is not possible for a horse to display tobiano/sabino etc without the specific "colour" gene.

x
 
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ARGH my work computer has gone bonkers on that link! That's my excuse to leave work, but I'll have a look later, thanks!

As an aside I'm still after people's opinions all the same :)

Thank you!
 
to answer another of your questions;

Horses can be coloured, and be deemed not to have come from coloured stock- this will be as a result of a "historical coloured" in its pedigree (basically a coloured who has greyed out) This ancestor will be genetically coloured and would show up in the DNA, if not visually.

x
 
Faracat, that website is absolutely fascinating.

Although it's thrown up a bit of a query now...if a bay foal is born to two bay parents, with absolutely no known colour in its pedigree, is it possible that it can be born with a white marking on its...let's say withers? And would this be enough, without genetically testing it, to call it 'coloured'?
 
SarahThomas said:
This is very unlike me to post two threads in one day, but a situation has just arisen whereby I've been inspired to write an article for the STAGBI newsletter.

In very basic terms, I would like to know: How much white is needed on a horse before you would deem it to be skewbald/piebald? Pictures are welcome to help illustrate.

Anybody who knows anything about colour genetics and that sort of thing, I would be really grateful for your thoughts on this as well. Is it possible for a horse to be born with white patches where there is no 'colour' in its pedigree?

Thanks for your help, my basic Google searches haven't thrown much up yet due to work filters so I will do some more research tonight when I get home. Just thought I'd ask the experts first ;)
Click to expand...

As luck would have it... I was reading it last night: bspa say:

BSPA REQUIREMENTS FOR COLOUR
❖ The ideal skewbald or piebald possesses a colour distribution of 50/50 colour and white markings, however acceptable patterns range from the predominantly white to the predominantly dark coat.
❖ The colour must be distributed on the body above the elbow and stifle, markings exclusively on the face in isolation are not acceptable.
❖ Only natural markings visible from standing position and at a distance of 10ft (3m) are acceptable. The lesser of the two colours shall meet the minimum requirements of a single patch of colour located on one side of the body covering and area of 15 x 15 cm (approximately the size of a saucer) is the minimum requirement for acceptance and must be accompanied by two or more of the listed markers:–
1. The presence of colour to or above the hock and knee on two or more limbs.
2. One or two blue, or partially blue eyes. The eye may also be surrounded by
white (pigeon eye).
3. Apron face (white extending to include the eyes and beyond the jaw line)
4. White on jaws.
5. Pink lower lip.
6. Two-coloured mane or tail.
7. White under the belly.
8. Pink skin under white hairs and/or blue zone between white hair and any other
colour present.
9. The offspring of Homozygous Stallions or mares that have been tested by a
recognised Genetic testing laboratory either in the USA or UK and who have documentation to uphold their claim.
❖ Light or dark skin will only be taken into account in the case of a grey and white skewbald whose markings have faded.
❖ Tovero – A cross between Overo and Tobiano coat patterns. Must be proven by documented breeding details of parents.
❖ Tricolour – very rare – must have patches of three colours on the body, white or black in the mane or tail or where white markings meet any other colour and create “halos” of a different colour do not constitute a tricolour.
❖ Any equine in possession of a registration certificate from the American Paint Horse Association (APHA) confirming its status as a paint horse is acceptable.
❖ A test may be carried out for the presence of the Tobiano gene – this will be done at the applicants expense.

For full document, go to bspa, bottom of page: downloads, you can download from there
 
I would think it could be possible if there is a historical coloured in its ancestry... if for instance the grandsire was grey (but carried the coloured gene and had subsequently greyed out)

I may be wrong, but that is the only way I can understand it may occur?!

Whether genetically testing it or not, it would be classed as coloured, as it would have a patch of white hair above the level of the stifle.

ets: (as long as the white patch was big enough, and not just a result of trauma- eg. pressure sore or injury which resulted in damage to the folicles, thus producing only white hair );)
 
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SarahThomas said:
Faracat, that website is absolutely fascinating.

Although it's thrown up a bit of a query now...if a bay foal is born to two bay parents, with absolutely no known colour in its pedigree, is it possible that it can be born with a white marking on its...let's say withers? And would this be enough, without genetically testing it, to call it 'coloured'?
Click to expand...

It couldn't be carrying any of the genes that would make it coloured but there is a possibility a horse could be born with a white marking from an injury or disease or other reason, but it wouldn't pass it on to any offspring. If a horse was out of two bay parents and ended up with white markings the first thing would be to check it was actually by the stallion it was meant to be by.
 
Bspa rules for coloured classes:
These Classes are to be judged only on the colour and markings of the horse or pony, conformation does not play a part in the judging procedure and entrants should not be trotted up to look at conformation or movement, this does not matter in this class.
A Colour and Markings Class should be judged 90% colour and markings, 10% judge’s choice (which may differ from judge to judge, so if you have won under one judge you may not under another).
Colour patterns should be valued equally, Tobiano or Overo, blue eyes should not be penalised (a Special Award for the Best Blue Eyes may be given in some Colour and Markings Classes). Entrants should be viewed from both sides, back and front, and should be asked to change the rein so the judge may view them from both sides. The line up should have plenty of room left between exhibits so the judge may walk between exhibits freely.
1. A good depth of bold colour, clearly defined blocks of colour (no base colour should be preferred, i.e. black preferred to bay or chestnut etc).
What a judge should be looking for:
2. A good even distribution of colour on both sides of the animal.
3. Mirror markings, i.e. the same coat pattern both sides of the animal is desirable.

In hand
Best Colour and Markings
90% colour and markings, including Overo & Overo marked
10% judge’s discretion

In hand skewbald and piebald

80% conformation and type characteristics, including Overo/Overo Marked
20% colour and markings.



RIDDEN CLASSES
Ridden Skewbald and Piebald. 40% conformation and type characteristics

60% Ride, performance, manners and display

In cases where colour is minimal, perhaps best to go in a skewbald and piebald class rather than a 'coloured class'
 
Gloi said:
It couldn't be carrying any of the genes that would make it coloured but there is a possibility a horse could be born with a white marking from an injury or disease or other reason, but it wouldn't pass it on to any offspring. If a horse was out of two bay parents and ended up with white markings the first thing would be to check it was actually by the stallion it was meant to be by.
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Did the bays have, white socks or facial markings at all?
 
I don't think in the instance I'm thinking of that genetic testing will be carried out. It's a question now of whether the white is a significant enough amount (it's definitely above the stifle) to be classed as coloured.

Although, if a vet calls it, they call it. They are after all professionals!
 
whisp&willow said:
I would think it could be possible if there is a historical coloured in its ancestry... if for instance the grandsire was grey (but carried the coloured gene and had subsequently greyed out)
Click to expand...

That isn't correct. One of it's parents needs to be coloured although they may be with minimal white on them. It can't skip a generation. If in doubt the parents would need to be tested.

Sabino horses can look as if they are solid coloured with socks etc. but the colour may be expressed very differently in each generation so that might make someone think that a bay horse has had a coloured foal.
 
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SarahThomas said:
I don't think in the instance I'm thinking of that genetic testing will be carried out. It's a question now of whether the white is a significant enough amount (it's definitely above the stifle) to be classed as coloured.

Although, if a vet calls it, they call it. They are after all professionals!
Click to expand...

Have you a picture?
 
Gloi said:
That isn't correct. One of it's parents needs to be coloured although they may be with minimal white on them. It can't skip a generation. If in doubt the parents would need to be tested.

Sabino horses can look as if they are solid coloured with socks etc. but the colour may be expressed very differently in each generation so that might make someone think that a bay horse has had a coloured foal.
Click to expand...

:cool: thanks for the info. x
 
It really depends on how you differentiate between a coloured and non-coloured horse.

Also the importance placed on phenotype over genotype.

The same genes that cause white markings on the face and legs, can cause white markings on the body. Therefore you can have two genetically identical horses (black + sabino, for example) but one has white on the body and one doesn't. so the one with white on the body, legs and head is a Piebald (black sabino) and the one with white on it's legs and head only is a black horse (black sabino).
 
Gloi said:
Have you a picture?
Click to expand...

No I don't, although I am going to check the mark up tomorrow. I'm wondering now whether its an injury that has resulted in a patch of white hair prior to the mark up being done. Said horse has been parentally verified and as far as I'm aware neither parent has any colour in its pedigree.

All of this has opened the door to a potential newsletter piece on coloured Standardbred racehorses, which there are a growing number of in this country. If nothing else I've learnt a lot already about colour genetics!
 
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