Calling all Welsh Section D experts!

[EarlGrey]

I'm hoping to travel to Wales next week in search of a new 'project'.
2 - 3 year old unbroken or lightly broken pref gelding. The aim is for M&M showing and M&M workers.

I know a nice horse when I see it but I have limited experience of Section D's so don't know what the judges look for and what 'true to type' is.
At this age, how much bone should they have?
I have seen mentioned on here that judges prefer not too much white marking.
Does it matter what height? (I would need something to mature to around 15hh)
Action? Should they have a high knee action?
Breeding? Is breeding so important when showing Welshies?

Sorry if some of these questions seem a bit silly but I haven't shown M&M since my Welsh B years ago. Any tips would be great!

Thank you!

 

[Natch]

Oooh Earlgrey I would really suggest you get info from WPCS (the welsh pony and cob society) who will have breed specifications and might have guides etc rather then ask us motley lot on a forum.

I am into showing Welsh Ds but can't really give you any advice on the questions you ask.

What I can say is lots of breeders seem to feed up to get the D to grow a lot in its early years to show as a youngster, and shoe them too young, so watch out for both of those that IMO could lead to health issues later on in life.

Lots of the welshes are getting more and more white because breeders are trying to breed 4 even white socks (which does look amazing in the show ring) but they are getting spots on their bellies and too much white elsewhere, so beware of that because that's generally very frowned upon.

Do you know what you are letting yourself in for with a young welsh D????

 

[Chunkie]

Hi - I would never claim to be an expert, but I do love Welsh Cobs and am on my second one.

I think it's true about the markings, but you won't see many with great splashings of white anyway. There is now no upper height limit on Section D's, but I personally don't like to see them over about 15 hands.

If you have a look on the WPCS website it gives quite in-depth info on the conformation and movement characteristics you should be looking for - you may find it quite useful.

Don't know much about breeding - I always say that a pedigree can't win a rosette - but having said that, both of mine have been sired by Prince of Wales Cup winners! I think the way they are put together counts for more than anything else

 

[Ezme]

Go and have a look on the breed standard if your intending to show. My mum is obsessed with Welsh D's and gets really angry (like scarilly angry) when she sees D's over 16hh. I can kinda see her point, they do tend to lose type when their big and I can't imagine an original D being that big. Think its a modern thing

 

[minesadouble]

Echo others on checking W.P.C.S. website but from my own experience of M & Ms my advice would be 4 even whites are good - though not more important than good conformation. For ridden classes you don't want the'full on' knee action of the in hand cobs though invariably you'll have a hint of knee action - you are looking for free forward action & hind leg movement important too.
Be wary of buying a youngster that looks VERY substantial as a youngster (foal/yearling I'm mainly referring to here) as they can turn out 'stufffy' once they are ready to ride. Good luck with your search!

 

[girla]

You certainly should contact the WPCS and check out there website. Also please look out for the Welsh Pony associations in your area ie Home Counties, Eastern Welsh Etc as they are extremely helpful and nearly always know of some one who is selling quality stock for In Hand or Under Saddle or both. I see that you are travelling to Wales to by your Wlesh Cob and even though there are beautiful animals there are are equaly the same amount in Essex,Kent and other counties.

Regarding colour i think it is entirely up to you what you prefer, 4 whites are lovely but a beautiful bay or a stunning black is just as good.

I bred D's for over 20 years and loved them all, but personaly if your are looking for something under saddle look for a good length of stride, something that covers the ground, not a straight up & down as they will get no where. A good sloping (spelling) shoulder and a good amount of bone underneath. Not to thick in the neck/Jowel a good quality head, large but kind eye, good not to large a ear and good nostrils that sit like pears. A good quality head no roman noses. A good tail set (sit up on the bum and not half way down, and a good dense hoof with plenty of spread (like dinner plates). Even though you are looking out for a youngster he/she should have this type of make up from young and hopefully you will be able to judge what they will make and not what they look like at the moment.

Good luck in your search and take your time as there are a lot of people out there desperate to bag a buyer.

 

[1275gta]

I would personally have a look at a lot of websites and look at the breeding and look at pictures of them mature, to get an idea of blood lines.

I would personally not buy anything with Ebb Victor lines as they tend to be very sharp, I am also wary of Nebo Daniel and black magic lines for a similar reason.

For showing they seem to prefer somthing with two or four white feet and a blaze.

Good luck hunting can't weigh to see pictures.

 

[teabiscuit]

gypsycob, are you saying aviod nebo black magic lines?

you'll have your work cut out won't you?

he's bloomin everywhere

these people are great for ridden welsh cobs and don't believe in overfeeding youngsters for the show ring

http://www.welshsporthorses.com/

 

[teabiscuit]

this site has lots of welsh cobs and welsh cob pedigrees to browse through

http://www.welshcobs.info/

 

[1275gta]

Well I would personally, yes I know difficult but the ones I have come accross have all had 'spirit'.

 

[star]

I dont think I've met a welsh cob who hasn't got Nebo Black Magic in it's pedigree somewhere. Both of mine certainly do. And yes, both have spirit, but that's the breed - they are not for novices, can be naughty little monkeys but have a fantastic nature when you get them on your side. My old boy will try anything for me, was highly trainable and very talented. Hoping the new one will prove to be the same. I looked at loads of pics of Welshies before i went searching for my new one, worked out exactly what type i was after, what issues i could deal with and didn't want to deal with etc. I like Llanarth breeding which seems to give a nice performance type without too much knee action. Personally wouldn't want one which had been shown as a youngster as they tend to feed them up and shoe them in weird ways. I'd rather something relatively untouched. All mine has done is hunt. Also, they shouldn't be broken too young. Mine has just turned 6 and is still filling out and growing - they can be very late to mature.

 

[Marchell]

Well, lots of good advice already given.

As Teabiscuit says (thanks for the link by the way!) we breed Sec D's and Welsh Part breds and believe strongly in their developement as youngsters. The Welsh as a breed are late developers and it is very easy to get into the trap of over feeding, especially if you are invloved in the in-hand showing scene (which we are not!). Cobs need to develop naturally and not carry too much 'grain' weight at a young age, otherwise this affects their legs (and brains!)
As mentioned above, look for a cob with a good shoulder, enabling a forward as well as a bit of knee action. Those that have the 'up and down' action are more suited to driving or in-hand as they can give a very unfomfortable ride under saddle.
However a VERY important point that is frequently overlooked by both breeders and buyers is the conformation from the wither (if you can find one on a Welsh Cob! , to the loins). A great many W.Cobs have no physical room for the placement of a saddle - I don't wish to post example images but have a look around, they are in abundance.
They appear as massively strong animals, with huge necks and sometimes look 'IMPRESSIVE' until you break them down - look for that classic 'dip' where no saddle can ever sit properly.
Bloodlines - do they matter? Well as ones that stand our stallions we would of course say "Yes" but that said, ridden cobs come from directions and I would say personally that the 'Name' is less important under saddle, its what the animal /rider can physically achieve that counts.Conformation as mentioned above, is just as important as any blood although I would say that there are some lines to avoid on a temperament arguement. If you have a sire /dam that is a proven performer, then of course it can help immensly towards gauging the offsprings potential.
Temperament = Sprit, character, intelligence, that sums up the Welsh Cob. They are NOT for the novice owner (as so many have found out). For the ridden work look for a youngster that has been handled and not one that shoots off round the field with its tail over its back at the first sight of humans (Yes, it looks great and is sought for the die hard inhanders but can horrendously wrong for those destined for other things).
Welsh Cobs will give you their all IF they understand,respect and work with you.Get it wrong (or get a wrong un!) and it can be really hard work and then they rarely give in.
We love them just the same!

 

[horseygirl28]

Never knew much about Welsh D's before stumbling accross my beloved chap! He has been the BEST horse I have ever had and I know I will never ever find anything like him again. He has tons of character, hes really just like a person and I sometimes joke, if he could sit in a car next to me he would, hes just such a character!!
Anyway, hes highly intelligent and when i first had him he was rather bargy and used to drag me around alot when leading him around and there were times I wondered if I could cope with this highly intelligent animal. He is also highly sensitive and can get upset very quickly and I sometimes wonder had he ended up with someone else he could have been so easily wrecked, there are times when hes needed firm handling but I would never dream of getting angry with him as hes so sensitive. But hes matured into the most wonderful horse and hes done everything ive ever wanted to do from showing, hunter trials, one day events, fun rides, hunting, bsja etc. Hes now a fantastic show jumper at 17 years old (he looks amazing too everyone would think he looks 8, lovely glossy coat etc) and wins and wins each time out. I cant think of a time where I havent been placed on him. Hes a strong ride but totally safe. Bombproof hack, but can zoom up the road if a leaf moves!! Hes a lovely bright bay (dappled) with white socks and thin blaze and stands at 15.2HH, he has masses of presence and I cant recount how many times people have asked me if i will part with him (for a lot of money) the answer is NO hes staying with me for life, hes given and taught me so much, I owe it to him to make sure he has a happy rest of his life and I hope he will go on for a good many years. I am now on a mission to find a relation of his, not proving easy at all! Welsh D's are FAB!

 

[EarlGrey]

Wow!

Thank you so much for all this input! You've all given me lots to think about when making sure I get the right little guy (or girl).
That's really interesting about which bloodlines are hotter than others. I think for my first Welsh D I will try and go for something that is not predisposed to being super-sharp.

In your opinions, do you think it is worth going to Wales for one? I see someone mentioned above that there are nice sec D's near where I am but I always thought the price would be much higher than in Wales. I really can't afford very much (and realise I am probably not going to have a HOYS winner for that little) that is why I am happy to do all the breaking and take my time with it.

 

[EarlGrey]

Yours sounds lovely horseygirl28! I hope I'm so lucky that I find one so talented and good-natured, although I know the way they are treated and schooled has a lot to do with it.
I have a 4yr old (non-welsh) cob who I think will turn out just as yours has. He has lots to learn yet but has already made himself 'buddy-for-life'.

 

[conniegirl]

Earl Grey. I'm in north wales and i do have to say that there are an awful lot of nice section D's for sale round here for not much money particularly if you are looking for youngstock.