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Foxymumma

Foxymumma

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Just wondering if anyone can give any clue on my mares colouring, I thought she is slowly whiting out, but after seeing some pictures of snowflake appaloosa's Im starting to wonder if she has some sort of influence in her breeding.. any help greatly appreciated!

also some advice on genetic testing for colours? Ive heard this is possible has anyone any experience with this? and what sort of cost would be involved?

heres some pictures...

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She has no characteristics like the white sclera, but does have one stripey hoof, and also has some small black blotches on her sides as well as the white, but im not sure how visible in the photos they are.
I do have some more pictures if it would help! :D
 
Have you got any close ups of her muzzle, eyes or hooves? Only one striped hoof and the non-mottled skin says no appaloosa to me.

She looks classic grey (other than the spots) so I'd have to agree on the tetrach spot theory. Even if she is App then I'd say she was grey as well.

Sorry no idea what causes tetrach spots.

Yup Enfys, bircatcher spots are generaly smaller and 'solid' white spots rather than large roany egg shaped patches which is classic for Tetrach spots.

If you google The Tetrach you will find a pic of the TB they are named after.
 
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I would be interested in knowing what the result would be or even having a bit of a research myself into it. My yearling has developed 3 white patches (1 on his leg, 1 girth area and 1 on his neck all on the same side) and 1 ginger patch on his shoulder also on the same side. His colour is undecided at the moment. I have just consulted KarynK and she believes he will grey our eventually over the years. I have never seen anything with a coat colouring or patterning as your mare but she is a pretty little thing. I do have a massive soft spot for greys anyway but she is lovely.
 
Am assuming she has at least one grey parent as she is definitely grey!

The stripy hoof you can discount as it is on a white marked leg and for appaloosas the stripy hooves must be on a dark coloured leg. Attributing Appaloosas as Non Characteristic visually is on very dodgy ground, . JANANI’s mare on here tends to drive a truck through the the thory that a horse must have the 3 visible characteristics, after all what is to say that the mottled skin cannot be internal, i.e. stripy teeth! She is completely solid with just a tiny bit of pink skin on her and has produced verifiable appaloosa offspring to a brown TB stallion with very little white. But I do not think there is any appaloosa patterning in this horse and with snowflake pattern the skin underneath the white patterning is dark, it's really the appaloosa varnish coming through in a different way.

From the pictures it looks like the patches where the white is have pink skin underneath them, so I am thinking that as well as grey there is some form of de-pigmentation perhaps that might be associated with the grey gene or could be inherited from the same lineage but be from the Kit gene responsible for dominant white?

Don't have any really goo pictures of the Tetrach but from memory I think his white patches were dark underneath so it is either an unusual form of greying like his or it may be that There is an additional mutation here that makes this happen? Does she have TB in her as it is likely she will have him in her lines.
As for testing the only thing you can really test for at this time is grey and you know she has that. They are still looking for the Appaloosa genes and have only just scraped the surface on the kit gene and have already found 20 or so different mutations without much effort!!
As for testing the only thing you can really test for at this time is grey and you know she has that. They are still looking for the Appaloosa genes and have only just scraped the surface on the kit gene and have already found 20 or so different mutations without much effort!!
 
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enfys said:
I think that these may be Chubari spots, also known as Tetrach, Birdcatcher spots are smaller I do stand to be corrected:).
What unusual and attractive patterning.
http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/tbcolor3.html
http://www.theequinest.com/colors/rare/
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Ahhh I think this looks likely to be what it is then, as it is a TB thing, she is Tb x ID so may have inherited this through her tb genes?!
she has a rather large patch on her hind leg...
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Ilovefoals said:
Wow! Don't know anything about colour but just wanted to say what a gorgeous mare!!!
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ahh thank you :) It was love at first sight I must admit :D

Harper_Gal said:
I have seen another horse go the same way who was just a spotty grey! Very striking though isn't it!
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It really is she gets comments everywhere we go, Im hoping it may pull in the judges when I start showing her! lol

lillith said:
Have you got any close ups of her muzzle, eyes or hooves? Only one striped hoof and the non-mottled skin says no appaloosa to me.
She looks classic grey (other than the spots) so I'd have to agree on the tetrach spot theory. Even if she is App then I'd say she was grey as well.

Sorry no idea what causes tetrach spots.

Yup Enfys, bircatcher spots are generaly smaller and 'solid' white spots rather than large roany egg shaped patches which is classic for Tetrach spots.

If you google The Tetrach you will find a pic of the TB they are named after.
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Heres a closeup of her head
8dbaca8a-1.jpg

She has one black hoof, 2 pink hooves and a hafl black half pink striped hoof

Flash_28 said:
I would be interested in knowing what the result would be or even having a bit of a research myself into it. My yearling has developed 3 white patches (1 on his leg, 1 girth area and 1 on his neck all on the same side) and 1 ginger patch on his shoulder also on the same side. His colour is undecided at the moment. I have just consulted KarynK and she believes he will grey our eventually over the years. I have never seen anything with a coat colouring or patterning as your mare but she is a pretty little thing. I do have a massive soft spot for greys anyway but she is lovely.
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Im really looking forward to watching the progression through her whiting out, im 99% sure it is just whiting out, but couldnt explain the odd way it was happening, a few people commented they were positive she was an appaloosa, contrary to what her passport and breeding says, but these sites mentioned above does make a lot more sense to me now! I have a huge soft spot for grey horses, and could not resist her when i saw her!
 
KarynK said:
Am assuming she has at least one grey parent as she is definitely grey!

The stripy hoof you can discount as it is on a white marked leg and for appaloosas the stripy hooves must be on a dark coloured leg. Attributing Appaloosas as Non Characteristic visually is on very dodgy ground, . JANANI’s mare on here tends to drive a truck through the the thory that a horse must have the 3 visible characteristics, after all what is to say that the mottled skin cannot be internal, i.e. stripy teeth! She is completely solid with just a tiny bit of pink skin on her and has produced verifiable appaloosa offspring to a brown TB stallion with very little white. But I do not think there is any appaloosa patterning in this horse and with snowflake pattern the skin underneath the white patterning is dark, it's really the appaloosa varnish coming through in a different way.

From the pictures it looks like the patches where the white is have pink skin underneath them, so I am thinking that as well as grey there is some form of de-pigmentation perhaps that might be associated with the grey gene or could be inherited from the same lineage but be from the Kit gene responsible for dominant white?

Don't have any really goo pictures of the Tetrach but from memory I think his white patches were dark underneath so it is either an unusual form of greying like his or it may be that There is an additional mutation here that makes this happen? Does she have TB in her as it is likely she will have him in her lines.
As for testing the only thing you can really test for at this time is grey and you know she has that. They are still looking for the Appaloosa genes and have only just scraped the surface on the kit gene and have already found 20 or so different mutations without much effort!!
As for testing the only thing you can really test for at this time is grey and you know she has that. They are still looking for the Appaloosa genes and have only just scraped the surface on the kit gene and have already found 20 or so different mutations without much effort!!
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Yes her sire is grey, im not sure what colour her dam was, im still going through the tb database looking through her lines, maybe the Tetrarch will show up! it would be very interesting to find out! you have pretty much confirmed my thoughts on her whiting out in an unusual way :) Ill have to have a closer look at her white patches to see the skin colour underneath!

enfys said:
The Tetrach.

TheTetrarch1913.jpg
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Wow wasnt he gorgeous! I can see that the patching is very similar
 
Foxymumma said:
Im really looking forward to watching the progression through her whiting out, im 99% sure it is just whiting out, but couldnt explain the odd way it was happening, a few people commented they were positive she was an appaloosa, contrary to what her passport and breeding says, but these sites mentioned above does make a lot more sense to me now! I have a huge soft spot for grey horses, and could not resist her when i saw her!
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I'm not surprised that you couldn't resist her as she is lovely!

Since reading about this and noticing that Foaly has a few white spots, not as clear cut as your mare though) I have looked up his pedigree. Sure enough The Tetrarch has shown up 10 generations back! I was just about to give up as I am at work and should be working so was going to be the last line to look up and then there it was! Quite proud of my little Foaly spots now! :D I would love to know if your mare has The Tetrarch in her bloodlines too! Will try and put a photo up to show you his white spots but internet is not working for me :( They looks like dusty spots on the camera lens!

He has a little spot on his neck and just behind his shoulder on the girth area.
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On these ones you can see the spot on his hind leg a little better.
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Flash_28 said:
I'm not surprised that you couldn't resist her as she is lovely!

Since reading about this and noticing that Foaly has a few white spots, not as clear cut as your mare though) I have looked up his pedigree. Sure enough The Tetrarch has shown up 10 generations back! I was just about to give up as I am at work and should be working so was going to be the last line to look up and then there it was! Quite proud of my little Foaly spots now! :D I would love to know if your mare has The Tetrarch in her bloodlines too! Will try and put a photo up to show you his white spots but internet is not working for me :( They looks like dusty spots on the camera lens!
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He is absolutely gorgeous! I can see his spots, he looks to be roaning out too? my mare has been looking like she is roaning out, shes gone almost a strawberry roan behind her withers across to her loins since these pics have been taken, I thought it was the sun bleaching her coat but its under her belly and girth area too, where are you looking through his pedigree? Im going through the thoroughbred database...
I find looking through their ancestry so interesting! :D
 
Foxymumma said:
He is absolutely gorgeous! I can see his spots, he looks to be roaning out too? my mare has been looking like she is roaning out, shes gone almost a strawberry roan behind her withers across to her loins since these pics have been taken, I thought it was the sun bleaching her coat but its under her belly and girth area too, where are you looking through his pedigree? Im going through the thoroughbred database...
I find looking through their ancestry so interesting! :D
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Thank you! :D I rescued him in early May which is why he is a bit runty and skinny. When people say how they think he is gorgeous it really does make me feel like a proud muma! ha ha

When he turned up he was a bay! In his passport he is down as a bay too. Then he went quite roany. The pictures are quite deceiving though as when you look at him in the flesh he doesn't appear as grey as he does in the photos and looks more bay esp on his bottom, which is why his spots are quite easy to see.

I would love to keep up with how your mare's colouring progresses. She does look she has a bit of a bay tinge in the photos that you have put up.

I think it was the TB database I was looking at. But I had to go back so far. I was actually just about to give up and save it till after work. But will probably have another look into it later as as it is incredible reading it all! Have found some interesting info on The Tetrarch too if you find your mare has him in her bloodlines.
 
Flash_28 said:
Thank you! :D I rescued him in early May which is why he is a bit runty and skinny. When people say how they think he is gorgeous it really does make me feel like a proud muma! ha ha

When he turned up he was a bay! In his passport he is down as a bay too. Then he went quite roany. The pictures are quite deceiving though as when you look at him in the flesh he doesn't appear as grey as he does in the photos and looks more bay esp on his bottom, which is why his spots are quite easy to see.

I would love to keep up with how your mare's colouring progresses. She does look she has a bit of a bay tinge in the photos that you have put up.

I think it was the TB database I was looking at. But I had to go back so far. I was actually just about to give up and save it till after work. But will probably have another look into it later as as it is incredible reading it all! Have found some interesting info on The Tetrarch too if you find your mare has him in her bloodlines.
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Oh bless him! you should be a proud mum! he is lovely!
Ive had up the tetrarch's pedigree, and although I havent yet found the tetrarch in her lines I have found his grandsire and great grand sire in her lines!...Bona vista and Bend or
oooh this could get interesting! lol I found this site you may be interested in reading! http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/TheTetrarch.html
it tells you all about his history and his lines and progeny :D
 
Foxymumma said:
Oh bless him! you should be a proud mum! he is lovely!
Ive had up the tetrarch's pedigree, and although I havent yet found the tetrarch in her lines I have found his grandsire and great grand sire in her lines!...Bona vista and Bend or
oooh this could get interesting! lol I found this site you may be interested in reading! http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/TheTetrarch.html
it tells you all about his history and his lines and progeny :D
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Thank you :) Also thank you for the link. Made great reading! So tempted to leave my little lad as a colt now! He is such a cool little dude! I was just astoinshed that he had Sadler's Wells in his breeding before and now this!

Keep on looking and you may find Tetrarch in her breeding. If you need help then just give me a shout and I am happy to look too! :)
 
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Thought you might like to see this its a TB and its from a different sire line goig back to Northern dancer lovely example of bend or spots and rabicano colouring
Just noticed your mares tail Foxymumma and its white from bottom up this is a strong splash white indicator along with thoes white dipped legs! I would go with the splash gene as well
 
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angrovestud said:
PIC_0154.jpg


Thought you might like to see this its a TB and its from a different sire line goig back to Northern dancer lovely example of bend or spots and rabicano colouring
Just noticed your mares tail Foxymumma and its white from bottom up this is a strong splash white indicator along with thoes white dipped legs! I would go with the splash gene as well
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I have just read in the link that Foxymumma gave that The Tetrarch had both dark and white splashes and the name Bend Or did come up as to why he had the dark splashes. Was only skim reading so I could have it wrong.

It is just fascinating that the spots have started to show up on Foaly almost after a century's worth of breeding!
 
Flash_28 said:
Thank you :) Also thank you for the link. Made great reading! So tempted to leave my little lad as a colt now! He is such a cool little dude! I was just astoinshed that he had Sadler's Wells in his breeding before and now this!

Keep on looking and you may find Tetrarch in her breeding. If you need help then just give me a shout and I am happy to look too! :)
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lol, im finding it facinating! Im sure ive just seen sadlers wells in my mares breeding too...
Ah thank you! Im just trying to research what other influential sires she has in her breeding.. im not positive what im looking for but thats all in the fun of researching eh lol

angrovestud said:
PIC_0154.jpg


Thought you might like to see this its a TB and its from a different sire line goig back to Northern dancer lovely example of bend or spots and rabicano colouring
Just noticed your mares tail Foxymumma and its white from bottom up this is a strong splash white indicator along with thoes white dipped legs! I would go with the splash gene as well
Click to expand...

Northern dancer plays a big part in her lines on the dams side, so maybe they share similar genes?! Im finding this all very facinating so far ive spend about 3hrs just looking through her lines lol.
That is a gorgeous coloured tb in the photo!

my mare also has some black marks on her side, i think i may try to get some closeups, one looks like a pawprint! so would that be a different gene mixed in there too?
 
Foaly has Northern Dancer in his lines too as Northern Dancer sired Sadler's Wells. Sadler's Wells is Foaly's great grandsire so Northern Dancer is the great great grandsire :) But it isn't from the Northern Dancer line that Tetrarch shows. If I can get his pedigree into an easy diagram I will try adding it.
 
Harper_Gal said:
Pretty sure my friend's spotty is Sadler's Wells... but I can never remember, she has two TBs and she's always ramming home how posh they are!

Would love to find out if Mia, like foaly, has suddenly decided to throw back to 100 years of pedigree and come out spotty!
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Your friend also has a spotty horse? Would be interesting to hear back. Waiting to see what Foxymumma finds in her mares pedigree :)

Little Foaly isn't full TB, he is an ISH. Dad was Cruisings Ambassador (ISH) and mum was full TB and bred to race. As he isn't full TB I am just in awe that Foaly has all of a sudden developed these spots after almost a century from just one side of the family!
 
Flash_28 said:
Your friend also has a spotty horse? Would be interesting to hear back. Waiting to see what Foxymumma finds in her mares pedigree :)

Little Foaly isn't full TB, he is an ISH. Dad was Cruisings Ambassador (ISH) and mum was full TB and bred to race. As he isn't full TB I am just in awe that Foaly has all of a sudden developed these spots after almost a century from just one side of the family!
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I finally found The tetrarch on my mares dams lines lol! and Roi herode on the sires side! took me long enough to find him haha

Are there any other good horses i could be looking for in her tb ancestry?

my girl is ISH too... her sire was star kingdom (RID) from the king of diamonds lines :)
 
Foxymumma said:
I finally found The tetrarch on my mares dams lines lol! and Roi herode on the sires side! took me long enough to find him haha

Are there any other good horses i could be looking for in her tb ancestry?

my girl is ISH too... her sire was star kingdom (RID) from the king of diamonds lines :)
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Ha ha! It did take me quite a while to find him in Foaly's lines. Just glad I only had to look on the one side! Wouldn't have been so much fun on if he was a full TB. Who is your mare by? Northern Dancer is quite a famous and rather good horse. She will probs have Hyperion in there somewhere too. I tend to look the stallions up. I know a few good TBs as I used to work in racing but hadn't heard of Foaly's grandsire on the dam's side. When I looked him up I found out he was a Group 1 winner!

I have heard of Star Kingdom but not so great on ISH and IDs. I have to be honest I hadn't heard of Cruising before Foaly and didn't realise just how good he was. I have since heard of King of Diamonds though!

How old is your mare now?
 
Flash_28 said:
Ha ha! It did take me quite a while to find him in Foaly's lines. Just glad I only had to look on the one side! Wouldn't have been so much fun on if he was a full TB. Who is your mare by? Northern Dancer is quite a famous and rather good horse. She will probs have Hyperion in there somewhere too. I tend to look the stallions up. I know a few good TBs as I used to work in racing but hadn't heard of Foaly's grandsire on the dam's side. When I looked him up I found out he was a Group 1 winner!

I have heard of Star Kingdom but not so great on ISH and IDs. I have to be honest I hadn't heard of Cruising before Foaly and didn't realise just how good he was. I have since heard of King of Diamonds though!

How old is your mare now?
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oh dont even go there... id have been sitting here till next week if she was a full tb lmao!
shes by Darshaba (cardinal flower x inquisitive lady)

ive found a few which ring some bells with me as what I think are maybe good lines...
Selene, Chaucer, Cyllene, Galopin, Bona vista, Doncaster, Hyperion, Birdcatcher, Roi herode, Native dancer and The tetrarch...

but other than that Im not too sure what im looking at! lol!

Shes rising 5, how old is foaly? and do you know the parentage of cruising? is he TB x ID or from ISH?
 
Foxymumma said:
oh dont even go there... id have been sitting here till next week if she was a full tb lmao!
shes by Darshaba (cardinal flower x inquisitive lady)

ive found a few which ring some bells with me as what I think are maybe good lines...
Selene, Chaucer, Cyllene, Galopin, Bona vista, Doncaster, Hyperion, Birdcatcher, Roi herode, Native dancer and The tetrarch...

but other than that Im not too sure what im looking at! lol!

Shes rising 5, how old is foaly? and do you know the parentage of cruising? is he TB x ID or from ISH?
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Yeah I think I would have been too if he were full TB!

How many generations back was The Tetrarch for your mare? I have noticed quite a few of the names that you mention. I left my notes I made today at work so can't remember some off the top of my head :( Do know that Hyperion, Northern Dancer, Gainsborough and Pharos were def there. But think Gaolpin may have been there too but not sure.

I'm not too sure on most of the names that have come up either so will slowly work my way through and have a read up I think! Might take me a while though!

Foaly is now 16 months old so quite a bit younger than him. I do wonder if more spots will appear by next year when he sheds his winter coat. I only know a bit about Cruising and that is what I have looked up on the internet. Cruising is by Sea Crest (RID) and out of Mullacrew (ISH). Foaly is by Cruisings Ambassador (ISH) (by Cruising out of Bude another ISH) and out of a full TB. Hope that makes sense!

Little link has a little about King of Diamonds and Cruising.
http://www.millstreethorses.com/stallions.htm
 
Just noticed that in the ISH side of things that Nashrullah is the grandsire to Cruising's dam Mullacrew. Nashrullah's grandsire is also The Tetrarch. So along the lines he appears twice for Foaly. The Tetrarch produced Mumtaz Mahal who then produced Mumtaz Begum who then in turn was dam to Nasrullah. I really need to put this all in a simplied diagram!
 
Flash_28 said:
Yeah I think I would have been too if he were full TB!

How many generations back was The Tetrarch for your mare? I have noticed quite a few of the names that you mention. I left my notes I made today at work so can't remember some off the top of my head :( Do know that Hyperion, Northern Dancer, Gainsborough and Pharos were def there. But think Gaolpin may have been there too but not sure.

I'm not too sure on most of the names that have come up either so will slowly work my way through and have a read up I think! Might take me a while though!

Foaly is now 16 months old so quite a bit younger than him. I do wonder if more spots will appear by next year when he sheds his winter coat. I only know a bit about Cruising and that is what I have looked up on the internet. Cruising is by Sea Crest (RID) and out of Mullacrew (ISH). Foaly is by Cruisings Ambassador (ISH) (by Cruising out of Bude another ISH) and out of a full TB. Hope that makes sense!

Little link has a little about King of Diamonds and Cruising.
http://www.millstreethorses.com/stallions.htm
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Ooh thanks for the link thats interesting reading! your foaly has king of diamonds in his sires lines, ive been told its the best by a friend who breeds ID's!
My mares previous owner had her from a 3yr old and said she was going to email me piccys as she was completely different to how she is now! but i havent heard from her yet.. i would love to have seen her when she was a foal etc, i may contact her breeder to see if they have any records or pictures etc :)
 
Flash_28 said:
Just noticed that in the ISH side of things that Nashrullah is the grandsire to Cruising's dam Mullacrew. Nashrullah's grandsire is also The Tetrarch. So along the lines he appears twice for Foaly. The Tetrarch produced Mumtaz Mahal who then produced Mumtaz Begum who then in turn was dam to Nasrullah. I really need to put this all in a simplied diagram!
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Oh wow!! thats getting technical now! lol
yeah me too... but i think were gonna need a HUGE peice of paper! :eek:
 
Foxymumma said:
Ooh thanks for the link thats interesting reading! your foaly has king of diamonds in his sires lines, ive been told its the best by a friend who breeds ID's!
My mares previous owner had her from a 3yr old and said she was going to email me piccys as she was completely different to how she is now! but i havent heard from her yet.. i would love to have seen her when she was a foal etc, i may contact her breeder to see if they have any records or pictures etc :)
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There is just so much to read on them all! I'm still surprised by who I am finding in Foaly's bloodlines! I have heard of King Of Diamonds and now need to have a little lookie on where he appears on that side! Esp if he is the best of IDs! :)

Would be cool to see what she looked like when she was younger or even as a foal. I think Foaly will develop more spots until he greys out totally. My little spotty wonder horse!

Foxymumma said:
Oh wow!! thats getting technical now! lol
yeah me too... but i think were gonna need a HUGE peice of paper! :eek:
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It is getting far too technical for my little brain!! ha ha We really will need massive pieces of paper!!
 
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