Can any one help? or has this happened to you?

[Tessflower42]

Hi, I have just joined. I live on a farm and I am need of some advice or if any one can point me in a direction, I would be so grateful. we have new housing estate so anything upto 30 people on a Saturday or Sunday use the fields.
We have 70 acres, all with footpaths, we have one person with 2 collie dogs not sticking to footpaths. Been told to put dogs on the leads in the fields with cows. He doesn't. last year his dog got kicked and had to be put down. No proof it was here... HSE came out. not sure who reported it. They saw the cows, they tickled the cows, saw the dogs kissing noses of the cows, saw other people walking and dogs, not just feet away but the other end of the field! signs are up saying cows and calves in field, keep dogs on leads, if chased let go of lead. Well now HSE are fining us £4000 odd, to pay for fee for intervention. We have public liability but this doesn't cover it..
section3 (1) of the health and safety at work etc. act 1974!!!
Any ideas??????

 

[FestiveG]

Contact a solicitor immediately! Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I think you should have done that at the beginning. If you know who the dog belonged to, try and get the fee paid by him!

 

[Orangehorse]

NFU? Legal insurance on your household policy?

 

[TPO]

I think you need legal advice. Can you contact your insurance provider (NFU)?

 

[Polos Mum]

Definitely one for professional advice from a specialist. You can't argue with HSE because someone on the internet told you something.

If its the fee for their investigation I guess you probably signed something when they started - inadvertently probably, to accept paying for their report. A couple of visits, interviews and a written report could easily be that much. Dig out the paperwork and see what you agreed to.

If it's a fine - you need to understand what you've done wrong so you can fix it or they will be back with bigger fines

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I think HSE have powers to charge for time and materials for any investigation or inspection they carry out. It doesn’t sound like fine. It sounds a lot so I do hope they’ve given you a breakdown of costs.

ETA link

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fee-for-intervention/what-is-ffi.htm

 

[paddy555]

I think HSE have powers to charge for time and materials for any investigation or inspection they carry out. It doesn’t sound like fine. It sounds a lot so I do hope they’ve given you a breakdown of costs.

ETA link

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fee-for-intervention/what-is-ffi.htm

I'm struggling a bit with the original post which gives the impression that there was no problem yet now there is a fine of 4k. and per the above link hse charge £157 per hour so 4k is a lot of hours. No doubt there will have been a letter or invoice detailing the hours and work they had to carry out to rectify the situation.

At the bottom of the above link is "queries and disputes process"

I think you need to start by looking at all the paperwork from hse and find out how the 4k is broken down. For that number of hours they must have been working for quite a while and suggested alterations that you had to make. Then if you think it is unfair follow the procedures on the queries link to get more information. By that stage you will see if what they have charged is fair and valid or if there is a case to appeal and take it further.

ATM contacting a solicitor is simply expensive until you have all the paperwork, which you will have to dig out for a solicitor anyway, and have the exact reasons as to why you have been charged.

 

[Tessflower42]

NFU? Legal insurance on your household policy?

Hi NFU, will not help because even though the farm policy is with them, I am not in their union!

 

[Goldenstar]

I don’t think it’s a fine I think it’s a charge for an investigation .

 

[Goldenstar]

The charge seems excessive to me .

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

I'm struggling a bit with the original post which gives the impression that there was no problem yet now there is a fine of 4k. and per the above link hse charge £157 per hour so 4k is a lot of hours. No doubt there will have been a letter or invoice detailing the hours and work they had to carry out to rectify the situation.

At the bottom of the above link is "queries and disputes process"

I think you need to start by looking at all the paperwork from hse and find out how the 4k is broken down. For that number of hours they must have been working for quite a while and suggested alterations that you had to make. Then if you think it is unfair follow the procedures on the queries link to get more information. By that stage you will see if what they have charged is fair and valid or if there is a case to appeal and take it further.

ATM contacting a solicitor is simply expensive until you have all the paperwork, which you will have to dig out for a solicitor anyway, and have the exact reasons as to why you have been charged.

It sounds like there are issues of H&S that’s the OP needs to deal with and put measures in place which the investigation found. A severe breach would have probably resulted in a prosecution, instead they’ve presumably had inspection and advice from the HSE. Either the OP pays for HSE time or the tax payer does. Whether the charges are excessive or not is another matter which the invoice should show. At the rate shown it indicates 26 hours work which does sound a lot but we don’t know the full circumstances.

 

[Ossy2]

Agree with above sounds a bill not a fine. So do you own and operate the farm? For you to be hit with a bill for their time they must have found you to be in breech of H&S legislation in some way. My understanding is they can’t charge you if their investigation didn’t find anything. The fee should be accompanied with a report on their findings, if there isn’t a report then you need to request one and You need to register your dispute of the invoice but from HSE correspondence you should clearly know their findings and they should have given advice on how to improve things so if the invoice is out of the blue in that respect then you need to dispute and request the details. Ultimately if they have found you in breech of something and you work the farm as yours or you are the employer you will need to pay the bill.

I do environmental and H&S auditing, not for the HSE, but 26 hours isn’t unreasonable for an inspection, reporting and follow up advice especially if it includes travel time and expenses to your property.

 

[paddy555]

OP, please note that you have only 21 DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THE INVOICE to raise a query


if yourself and the hse cannot then sort it out and you want to take a dispute further then you have a further 21 days from the date HSE sort out your original query to raise your dispute

 

[Tessflower42]

Thank you guys, nice to get some feed back.. It is a fee for intervention. so Yes it is for their time. I didn't ask them to come out. We do own the farm, with cattle.
They say we have to pay because we are in breach of the law. Because the signs weren't robust enough!! even though photos were taken and very clear. And saying we should of had the foot path fenced off!!! since when was that ever a legal thing. Our cows are lovely as they saw, but being chased by a dog, they are going to protect. I have contacted a few solicitors, even though they are suppose to deal with Agriculture they cant help!!
this is a reply.
My E-Mail and the NoC both specified the breach of law – Section 3(1) of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. This law places a duty on you: -
to conduct your undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety.

for starters it was a dog, not a person and the same person was here with his other dog on sunday, just strolling through, no lead, not on the foot path!!

 

[SEL]

Are the agricultural solicitors saying why they can't help?

 

[Tessflower42]

OP, please note that you have only 21 DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THE INVOICE to raise a query


if yourself and the hse cannot then sort it out and you want to take a dispute further then you have a further 21 days from the date HSE sort out your original query to raise your dispute

I did dispute it, they took nearly 3 months to get back to me..

So do you think it is fair, that a person, who you have told on more than 5 occasions to get their dog on a lead and they choose not too, to let them run around cows and you tell them not too, for me to get the blame..
If a dog chases a cow, what else could the irresponsible person think is going to happen? I have 3 dogs that are with them every day.. even been in the pen when they have given birth.. with me when they are out roaming the fields, never a problem once..

 

[Tessflower42]

Are the agricultural solicitors saying why they can't help?

Dear Ms Wheeler

Thank you for your email. I have checked with a couple of lawyers here and unfortunately this is not something we are able to assist you with. However, below are the details of a couple of firms who may be able to assist and I hope this helps :-

Barcan & Kirby – Thornbury - https://barcankirby.co.uk/?utm_source=gmaps&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=thornbury – Tel. 0117 253 0341 (a Bristol number but I believe they have a centralised system)

WSP – Dursley - https://wspsolicitors.com/contact/dursley-solicitors/?utm_source=gmaps&utm_medium=organic – Tel. 01453 383 988

Star Legal – Thornbury - https://www.star-legal.co.uk/ - Tel. 01454 414 342.

Alternatively the Law Society website will provide you with solicitors in this area who will be able to assist.

I am sorry we are not able to help in this instance.

 

[AmyMay]

So did you contact any alternative solicitors?

 

[Tessflower42]

It sounds like there are issues of H&S that’s the OP needs to deal with and put measures in place which the investigation found. A severe breach would have probably resulted in a prosecution, instead they’ve presumably had inspection and advice from the HSE. Either the OP pays for HSE time or the tax payer does. Whether the charges are excessive or not is another matter which the invoice should show. At the rate shown it indicates 26 hours work which does sound a lot but we don’t know the full circumstances.

yes its 27 hours. at £154. i have a break down. but they came out, they contacted me, Where am I at fault.. I dont see how..

 

[Tessflower42]

So did you contact any alternative solicitors?

i have contacted 5 so far and all are supposed to deal with agriculture!!

 

[Ossy2]

Ok so forget the dog here From what I can see the HSE aren’t particularly investigating that incident in isolation, although that incident may have prompted someone to complain your set up is not safe, that is what their investigating... they are investigating your set up and whether your safety precautions are suitable to prevent Potential injury/harm to a person. They’re view on this occasion is they do not. Be it your signage or whether fencing could Be erected. Have you Risk assessments that assess the need for fencing where footpaths are? We’re these provided to the HSE.
maybe a solicitor isn’t what you need right now but an independent H&S consultant that can review your operations and the HSE report and argue whether you are in Breech or not.

 

[Tessflower42]

HSE were here, walking around the cows, taking pictures, checking styles, which we have had kissing gates installed. Even HSE said well they don't look dangerous!!
The family have farmed here for over 50 years, I have been here for 30+ years.

 

[Polos Mum]

Sadly I don't think there is much to be argued with - unless you can some how prove that they didn't spend 27 hours on your investigation. Did the invoice break down where they spent that time. To be honest if they came a couple of times and spoke to a few local residents - I don't think it is that much time really.

It's not about fault or who did what to whom. This is just a bill for the time spent by HSE. If the invoice was 3 months ago and you only had 21 days to lodge a formal complaint about how long they took then I suspect that option will have timed out.

 

[Tessflower42]

Ok so forget the dog here From what I can see the HSE aren’t particularly investigating that incident in isolation, although that incident may have prompted someone to complain your set up is not safe, that is what their investigating... they are investigating your set up and whether your safety precautions are suitable to prevent Potential injury/harm to a person. They’re view on this occasion is they do not. Be it your signage or whether fencing could Be erected. Have you Risk assessments that assess the need for fencing where footpaths are? We’re these provided to the HSE.
maybe a solicitor isn’t what you need right now but an independent H&S consultant that can review your operations and the HSE report and argue whether you are in Breech or not.

Thank you. They have said they want us to put up electric fence, but when we did that, people came knocking on my door that their dogs had had a shock. Even though we had given them 2 meters and signs every other section and signs on the posts coming into the field. Even had someone complain when we turned on the light at 2am when we were calving!
its also not a straight forward field, imagine a rectangle with 3 entrance/ exits. We are not allowed to redirect the foot path..

 

[Ossy2]

HSE were here, walking around the cows, taking pictures, checking styles, which we have had kissing gates installed. Even HSE said well they don't look dangerous!!
The family have farmed here for over 50 years, I have been here for 30+ years.

It’s not about whether they dangerous or not it’s about whether you’ve properly assessed the risks and put reasonable measures in place to either eliminate or reduce the risk to an acceptable level. The HSE have said you haven’t you either need to provide info that they are wrong, and believe me they’re not always right, or pay the bill.
eg do your signs confirm with signage requirements, size content etc and they properly spaced etc.

 

[Tessflower42]

Sadly I don't think there is much to be argued with - unless you can some how prove that they didn't spend 27 hours on your investigation. Did the invoice break down where they spent that time. To be honest if they came a couple of times and spoke to a few local residents - I don't think it is that much time really.

It's not about fault or who did what to whom. This is just a bill for the time spent by HSE. If the invoice was 3 months ago and you only had 21 days to lodge a formal complaint about how long they took then I suspect that option will have timed out.

They didn't speak to any one local, they sat and observed some locals, not paying any attention to signs and just letting their dogs go where ever.. The highways lady was here at the time and she was going to shout at one person, she couldn't believe how no one took any notice of signs, even the police signs saying its a crime and your dog could get shot...
the locals can't believe it, nor our councillors. some have live here all their lives, they are dumbfounded!

 

[Polos Mum]

They didn't speak to any one local, they sat and observed some locals, not paying any attention to signs and just letting their dogs go where ever.. The highways lady was here at the time and she was going to shout at one person, she couldn't believe how no one took any notice of signs, even the police signs saying its a crime and your dog could get shot...
the locals can't believe it, nor our councillors. some have live here all their lives, they are dumbfounded!

Maybe try writing back and asking them to justify the 27 hour then, but if they do then there isn't much for you to challenge them on. The bill isn't anything to do with who's right or wrong - just how much time they have spend on your investigation.

 

[Tessflower42]

So look like I will have to pay...

Nothing has ever happened here, one person thinks he has the right to roam and puts this much stress on a family that really doesn't need anymore..

What has happened to the country code..

Maybe try writing back and asking them to justify the 27 hour then, but if they do then there isn't much for you to challenge them on. The bill isn't anything to do with who's right or wrong - just how much time they have spend on your investigation.

it's so upsetting, I didn't ask them to come out. People seem to think they have a right to do anything. Then we get the blame. They take photos of us mending the barn in a tractor bucket, moaning about the smell of cow manure when we are spreading, moaning about muck on the footpaths, cow mooing, nightmare. Answer I think is to sell up for building, thats what all these local farmers are doing.. thank you for your time xx

 

[paddy555]

I did dispute it, they took nearly 3 months to get back to me..

So do you think it is fair, that a person, who you have told on more than 5 occasions to get their dog on a lead and they choose not too, to let them run around cows and you tell them not too, for me to get the blame..
If a dog chases a cow, what else could the irresponsible person think is going to happen? I have 3 dogs that are with them every day.. even been in the pen when they have given birth.. with me when they are out roaming the fields, never a problem once..

it may have helped if you had put the full story in your first post. It is irrelevant if I or anyone else think it is fair that someone has let their dog off it's lead or anything else. I am sure your cows are wonderful, I love cows so I would think that. Personally I would never go through a field of strange cattle with or without a dog but that is also irrelevant. However people do have a right to use a footpath, and whilst I am very much on the side of the farmer, the public walking through a field of cattle, however lovely they are, is an accident waiting to happen and clearly needs measures to reduce or eliminate the risk. It's not really a case of speaking to locals simply the public and cows are in the same field and the potential for an accident and there have been some.

I think this is something that is going to happen time and again as housing estates are built near farm land and the public and their pets walk in the countryside. Not fair on the farmer but then again the public do have rights if not common sense.
Sadly I cannot see that you can do anything other than pay.

If your electric fence gives the footpath it's required width then if dogs are not on a lead and get stung at least you know the fencer is working.

is this field valuable to your farming? as you are so close to a housing estate what about a dog walking field? that way you could make money out of putting up with them

 

[Orangehorse]

Working from a tractor bucket is a no-no. Although we used to do it, we bought a proper cherry picker thing to go on the loader.

I know someone who had a £9,000 fine for a technical breach of H & S law, even though they had been let down by another firm who had a contract to inspect all the vehicles, they hadn't done it within the time limit and the company owner was in court for not having an up to date inspection.

I think all you can do is to argue your case, but I doubt if you can do anything about it. Had you been a member of the NFU they might have been able to help more, but that isn't any comfort to you now.