Can anyone explain my Greyhound's peeing?

Love_my_Lurcher

Love_my_Lurcher

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My Mum and I got our second dog in August from the Retired Greyhound Trust and we are having lots of trouble getting her house trained. She is an ex-racer and has never had puppies. She had never been in a house until we got her either. Since our Lurcher has been so good in the house (a couple of accidents when he has had an upset stomach overnight and that's been it with him) we (perhaps naively) thought that she would be fine too. Then it occurred to us that she would have never been house trained. Neamhnaid (Neeva) has had countless 'accidents'. She has peed in almost every room of the house. My Mum's bed has been peed on three times now. She will sometimes pee in the house even if the back door is open. There was one night last week when she had been on the sofa next to me. Her backside had been rammed up into my side and when I got up there was a wet patch on my jumper where her backside had been. She must have 'leaked' onto it. She has been to the vet and a urine infection has been ruled out. Over the past couple of months we have been telling her off for doing it in the house (just a firm vocal reprimand we do NOT yell or hit her and give heaps of praise when she does it outside). We thought that had worked as there was recent spell when she went for two/three weeks without doing anything in the house. However, over the past week-and-a-half, she has peed well over half-a-dozen times in the house. We are going through gallons of pet spray and their beds have been peed on so often they are now stained. We spoke to a lady who we sometimes see on our night time walk. She suggested training pads, so we got some yesterday to see if those will help. We need to get this sorted and we would appreciate some more advice.

To tell you more about her and her behaviour. She can be quite bossy with Brochan. She'll barge in if he is getting attention, will try and take toys out of his mouth (this has resulted in a couple of spats - minor ones though - nothing major) and has growled at him a couple of times if he has gotten too close to the sofa and she is on it. Recently she has started to lick his remaining bit. Yesterday she went and licked a fence where Brochan had peed on it. Then she did the same when he peed on a bush. She can also get a bit too excited when trying to engage Brochan in play. She will bark at him, sometimes nip him and air snap at his face. She will sometimes cry for no apparent reason. She is infamous for scavenging despite her being well fed. We try to be as careful as we can without stopping her sniffing the ground completely, but she still manages to scoff something on just about every walk. A muzzle would be the last resort, but then people would think she is dangerous. She will even try and steal food off your plate. She has succeeded in stealing a slice of toast from my plate and has also stolen food a couple of times from the grill pan. She is usually fine with other dogs, but there have been a couple she has objected to. One was an entire male who had gotten too close to her and she barked at him. The other was a female Mastiff who was a bit too keen on sniffing her. She snarled and growled at her. She will sometimes follow you to the toilet and have a good sniff. There was a time when I had been walking them through some remote woods and I really needed to pee, so I relieved myself. She was next to me and tried to roll in it. She can also get a bit anxious on walks and spooks quite easily at things. She isn't keen on going out at night. She will lie on the sofa and try and hide her face in the corner. I am sure I have left things out, but I hope I've filled you in enough. Apart from the things I have mentioned, she is a friendly and affectionate dog and we love her to bits.
 
in light of the weeing/leaking on you on the sofa and the wet beds I would be thinking maybe she is incontinent to a degree.

do you go into the garden with her when you let her out and actually make sure she wees or just let her out and back in again?

you need to rule out incontinence, put a lead on and go into the garden or on a short walk with her till she pees then comeback in, praise when she pees outside with a simple good girl-stop telling her off, set her up to succeed by going out for a pee every hr for a couple of days then start to lengthen the time between outside trips-you need to re-enforce what you want with positive experiences.

lying on the sofa and hiding her indicates a thin skinned running dog that feels the cold and would rather stay warm and snuggly on the sofa than go out in the cold, but also maybe a dog that associates going outside with negative experiences.

call her to the back door and give her a treat even when you don't want her to go out.

getting fed up with over zealous introductions from other dogs is fair enough in my book, the owners of both dogs should stop her feeling anxious enough to protect herself by stepping in before that has happened-she has 'sworn' at other dogs to get them to back off by the sounds of it and you need to stop her feeling the need to do that by stepping in before it happens.

good luck
 
In terms of behaviour, she sounds like a typical greyhound to me, and I have known lots of them :) All of my bitches demonstrate all of the behaviour you have described, it isnt aggressive or wrong, it is just them being greyhounds. As far as muzzling her on walks is concerned, it really doesnt matter what other people think, it is whether muzzling her is the best option for you and her - my big dog is muzzled every time he goes out, it is purely preventative and I would rather do that than face any consequences for him.

Have you ever actually house trained her? You have to bear in mind that if she has never lived in a house before she simply doesnt understand house training - rather than telling her off when she gets it wrong, you need to show her what is the correct behaviour?

So every time she wakes up, every time she has something to eat, every time you see her sniffing around - take her outside and wait with her until she has a pee. Give her lots of praise as you have been doing when she gets it right, and maybe give her a key word/command so she can associate that with going out and doing what is needed :)
 
Good advice above - unfortunately it's a case of intensive trips to the garden until she learns what you mean! I'm sure you'll sort it. Treats every time she goes outside.

The sniffing and licking pee is fairly standard, I wouldn't worry about that.

I'd also get a phrase for this in general - in our house it's 'go widdle'. My two know both of these - you can use it as an instruction when you want them to go, or as a question (my little one will bark if he wants to go, if you ask him!).

Just try to avoid the instruction at volume on the back doorstep in a suburban area - I do get some funny looks shouting 'GO WIDDLE' seemingly at nothing, as the dogs are invisible below the fence line...
 
Agree with all of above comments and I would be curtailing her movement a lot more. This will help with both the peeing and the stealing.

This is where we sleep, this is where we pee, this is where we eat. You now know she thieves food, so do not let her mooch around the kitchen when you are eating or cooking.
Do not let her mooch around when you cannot watch her and I would keep her crated when you cannot watch her. If she has been in a kennel before this will be no trauma for her and may even make it easier for her to understand. I pee out there, not in here.
Dogs are pretty transparent when it comes to toileting, they usually sniff, circle or slow down - I know exactly when my dog is going to go and what he is going to do.
His keyword is 'pee pee' - and the routine is, you come out of the kennel or the crate or the car and we go to a grass area and I say 'pee pee' - that is just what happens.

So when she is loose in the house, watch her and if you see her display these behaviours, put her outside and use a keyword and if she goes, praise.

I know you think that a vocal admonishment is not a strong reprimand, but she may be peeing sneakily because of it. You need to correct/re-direct before a dog starts the behaviour, not afterwards, they don't understand/make the link and think 'oh, I better not do that in front of them again' not 'oh, she means for me to go outside'.

Oh and no shared toys, that will cause spats in a lot of multi-dog households.

Muzzle might not the worst thing in the world if it keeps her safe/not swallowing anything that might be bad for her and she should be used to wearing one as an ex-racer.
 
Could be incontinance but will need to rule out just lack of understanding where to go. They are sensitive breed so telling them off can upset them & mean just avoiding doing it in front of you. I've always treated new greyhounds similar to pups with regards to house training and agree its best to take them out so you can heap praise on & keep note of output. Leaving a door open can blur the boundary between indoors & outdoors for an unhousetrained dog too.
 
I haven't read all the replies, but if your bitch has come from a Rescue, then presumably she's been spayed. Spaying in older bitches is often the cause of incontinence (for those who wish to contradict me, check with your vet, first). I never have bitches spayed, and wouldn't. The other point is that greyhounds in training are kennelled, often in little more than box style cubicles, which would be similar in size to what others call a crate and generally, or at least all those greyhounds which I've known of, have always been the cleanest of all dogs, ever. The incidence of her urinating over your sleeve would almost certainly point towards a case of incontinence rather than laziness, I'd have thought, in as much as it would be highly unlikely to have been an intentional act.

Regarding her behaviour; I've never had a greyhound behave as yours. Her interest in where the male dog has urinated, would fit in to a masculine behaviour pattern, and one where she's attempting to assert her authority. Have you noticed that when she urinates, and when she's doing so outside, that she actually starts the process of cocking her leg? It's often seen in dominant or masculine bitches.

She may well do it with the dog anyway, but I'd suggest that with you she's managing to put you in your place with her stealing food from you and if you allow her behaviour to continue, the next plan may well be putting you firmly in your place!

I'd suggest that your dogs are fed separately from each, and to the point that neither are allowed within range of each other until their food bowls are removed. Toys are of use to teething puppies, but of no use to adult dogs, in my view, and if you allow them to continue, then there will eventually be more than a "spat". Have you ever seen greyhounds having a proper set to? Make sure that you have adequate veterinary insurance!

If you walk both your dogs together, and in public, and considering her rather forceful take on life, currently, then I would most definitely muzzle the bitch when you're out in any public place.

Your bitch is showing the classical signs of a dog which has little respect for her owner. It would be rare for dogs which have come out of training to behave as she is, as they're generally gentle souls, but there must be the odd one or two, and it seems that you've ended up with one. Mostly, greyhounds don't mistake kindness for weakness, but again, that's mostly! A degree of discipline needs to be installed and maintained, I'd say, and it wouldn't hurt to start by insisting that dogs have their own beds and don't share your sofa with you.

Alec.
 
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NellRosk said:
Quick question, why not? Always thought it was the 'done' thing if you weren't interested in breeding and that the chances of cancer in the mammaries was higher if not spayed?
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Plus unwanted pregnancies, pyometra, straying bitches and dogs, I think at spayed bitch fits into most households much easier than an entire on. Saying that my bitch is entire as every time she has to be stitched up (there have been many times) she reacts to every type of suture material that is used-the risk of a spey site breaking down worries me and the vets so we have opted to leave her entire but, seasons are a pain, on lead excersise that are long walks, she is clingy when in season and she smells a lot more too. she is in season at the mo and will only sleep soundly if she is touching me, she is currently asleep with my foot on her side and growling, running and wagging her tail whilst she sleeps
 
NellRosk said:
Quick question, why not? Always thought it was the 'done' thing if you weren't interested in breeding and that the chances of cancer in the mammaries was higher if not spayed?
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Having seen three pyos this week already (and it's only Tuesday, there'll be at least another couple before the week is out) I can't believe anyone wouldn't advocate routine spaying of bitches. Drastically reduces the incidence of mammary cancer as well if done early, the risk increases with each season.

I'm told (by a vet) that the latest studies show only a weak link between early spaying and urinary incontinence. Anecdotally there's as many entire leaky bitches as spayed ones. Risk of a pyo or mammary lump requiring surgery is much higher than the risk of incontinence however you look at it.
 
NellRosk said:
Quick question, why not? Always thought it was the 'done' thing if you weren't interested in breeding and that the chances of cancer in the mammaries was higher if not spayed?
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The health risks to neutering dogs, both male and female and strangely, for opposing reasons, are there just as if they aren't done, it seems to me. My only real dislike of the procedure is that both male and female lose the characteristics of their sex, and they become changed and by appearance too. There's a legion on here who will disagree with me, and assure you that their dog is completely unchanged. Were my opinion asked if it should be done as a convenience, then I'd say not, but thankfully, it's for the individual to decide.

Alec.
 
Twiggy2 and blackcob.... That's what I've always thought too. Just wondered if there was something I didn't know about when it came to spaying bitches and why you wouldn't want to do it.

And Alec, I hated having my bitch in season in the house, messy and unnecessary. And as for changing her personality, I was rather hoping spaying would calm her down! But no she's still nuts.
 
I had a bitch with really bad urinary incontinence, she was entire. I also lost an older bitch to pyo and will always blame myself for not getting round to having her spayed. My younger bitch is going in tomorrow to be spayed (eek), I do not intend to breed from her so can see no reason to keep her entire. Her mother was done 12 months ago, the only change in her appearance is that she has got a slightly thicker coat, which I like :).
Sorry to hijack OP, I hope some of the good advice given you by other posters will help.
 
blackcob said:
Having seen three pyos this week already (and it's only Tuesday, there'll be at least another couple before the week is out) I can't believe anyone wouldn't advocate routine spaying of bitches. Drastically reduces the incidence of mammary cancer as well if done early, the risk increases with each season.

I'm told (by a vet) that the latest studies show only a weak link between early spaying and urinary incontinence. Anecdotally there's as many entire leaky bitches as spayed ones. Risk of a pyo or mammary lump requiring surgery is much higher than the risk of incontinence however you look at it.
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This exactly. In 2.5 years of practice I have seen far more cases of pyo's and mammary cancer than I have urinary incontinence. And quite honestly, urinary incontinence is an inconvenience, rather that than a dead dog. In my own experience, i would say at least 50% of older entire bitches that come in as 'off-colour' will be pyo's.
 
Alec Swan said:
The health risks to neutering dogs, both male and female and strangely, for opposing reasons, are there just as if they aren't done, it seems to me. My only real dislike of the procedure is that both male and female lose the characteristics of their sex, and they become changed and by appearance too. There's a legion on here who will disagree with me, and assure you that their dog is completely unchanged. Were my opinion asked if it should be done as a convenience, then I'd say not, but thankfully, it's for the individual to decide.

Alec.
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Totally agree and have the same views as you Alec. I feel that vets are to quick to spay/neuter babies for a start, so that in a dogs case their bones don't grow and fuse properly through the lac of testoserone thus given them a strange appearance. I always ask, would you advocate doing it to a 6 year old human child?
 
I have never read such a total load of rubbish in my life - as usual from Alec Swan, who has the most archaic views on dog management I have ever had the misfortune to encounter - thank goodness we have qualified vets on the forum who can give a proper representation of the facts :)

OP I have adopted or known of literally hundreds of rescue greyhounds who have all been neutered before they have been re-homed, which is the responsible and sensible thing to do, and there has been no change in appearance, behaviour or characteristics of their sex in the animals involved. In fact I must tell my 35kg strapping greyhound dog that he is a girly because he has been neutered, I don't think he would recognise that suggestion :p
 
Many thanks for the replies and for what sounds like really useful advice. Although I do think that Alec's replies have been extreme. Whilst I agree if a dog doesn't have existing health/behavioural problems then they shouldn't be neutered, but in a lot of cases neutering them can be the best way forward. I don't believe for a second that allowing a dog on a sofa is inviting them to take over the house. Neamhnaid sleeps on the sofa at night and enjoys it during the day. We are able to get her off it and she doesn't object to Brochan being on it too. You'll see in my signature that the pair of them can share it and there have been no problems when they are both on it at the same time. I can count on one hand the number of times she has growled at him when he has gotten close to the sofa and she's been on it with me. We won't be denying them toys either. They are great for keeping them stimulated mentally and physically. It would also be hard to get them to run around off lead without a ball. They are only allowed off lead in a big enclosed local garden or a large enclosed nearby field. They are NEVER let off anywhere that we think would be a problem.

Anyway, we are going to start taking Neamhnaid out the back on the lead at regular intervals and see how that pans out. Will keep you posted.

Thanks again. :)
 
Nobody is saying deny them toys, just not have them lying around the house for either of them to pick up or scrap over. Dogs can and do bicker over high value items.
Make yourself part of the game and be the provider and the taker away of toys, make it more interactive and play with them/use them as a reward for the dogs individually is what I mean and bring them out at certain times and put them away again. If they are crated they could have their own toys in their own crate, etc etc etc.
 
CaveCanem said:
Nobody is saying deny them toys, ........
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Not quite so C_C, it was me who suggested that toys for adult dogs are or no benefit, and I stand by what I said. Particularly in the case of two adult dogs, and with toys being one of the likely catalysts for dispute, not only do I see no benefit to them, I see them as a high risk. Archaic my views may be, but there are those who would consider them to make sense.

Alec.
 
CaveCanem said:
Nobody is saying deny them toys, just not have them lying around the house for either of them to pick up or scrap over. Dogs can and do bicker over high value items.
Make yourself part of the game and be the provider and the taker away of toys, make it more interactive and play with them/use them as a reward for the dogs individually is what I mean and bring them out at certain times and put them away again. If they are crated they could have their own toys in their own crate, etc etc etc.
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Don't worry. That comment wasn't aimed at you. It was directed at Alec who thinks that only puppies should have toys to teethe on and that they are of no use to adults. Crating might be an option for Neamhnaid, but not for Brochan. They do have access to their toys whenever they want, but putting them away and only letting them play with them at certain times sounds sensible.
 
I don't leave dog toys lying around as Polo is very possessive of them so we have our little play and then they are put away.
I would hate to deny a greyhound the chance to play as they have had no proper puppyhood. Basically I have treated all my rescue greyhounds as overgrown puppies and it's lovely to watch a dog which has been kept in a tiny kennel and only taken out for exercise, to realise that he can have fun!
 
I remember having to set the alarm clock for 3 in the morning for a few weeks when I brought an ex-racer straight from training into the house. She quickly (two weeks) learnt to be clean. Your bitch really sounds as if she suffers from incontinence besides needing house training. Especially when you say she has leaked while lying down. Depending on the cause this can be treated. Your vet should be able to help.

re. neutering which is beside the subject, sorry, does nobody in this country know that neutering is illegal in Norway? Perhaps all Norwegians have archaic views on dog management? Or just perhaps, they and Alec have a valid point of view?
 
planete said:
re. neutering which is beside the subject, sorry, does nobody in this country know that neutering is illegal in Norway? Perhaps all Norwegians have archaic views on dog management? Or just perhaps, they and Alec have a valid point of view?
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Yes Norwegians are archaic as they also hunt whales, I dont think Alec does.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Yes Norwegians are archaic as they also hunt whales, I dont think Alec does.
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My only association with whales, is that I once very nearly married one. Thankfully, she saw sense at the last minute.

Those Norwegians who hunt whales eat them and they have a sustainable harvesting system, and when the numbers are down, so is their harvest. It's one of the very few sustainable ecologies which exists today, and the last time that I looked into it, the system had the approval of the likes of Attenborough and his like.

I'm almost certain of my facts now, and it's from something that I read, and it's that Norway has the lowest murder rate, the lowest rate of prosecuted pedophiles, the lowest rate per capita of drug addicts and one of the healthiest populations in, or as part of, the European mainland. Perhaps being archaic has something to recommend it! :wink3:

Alec.
 
It's perhaps worth pointing out that neutering a bitch and a dog are two wholly different enterprises. Having canvassed the opinion of vets at work the information I give out at the puppy parties is to always spay a bitch but we advise leaving males entire unless there's a specific problem or concern. We can, and have, declined to castrate dogs on behavioural grounds. And we bust the old 'it'll calm them down' myth. :p

Had another pyo today!

As far as the OP goes - I would want to take her back to the vet for another work-up, there's lots of other things that can cause incontinence besides a UTI. The fact that she leaked on your arm makes me wonder if there's something else going on. It's also entirely possible that she's just never been properly house trained and as I think someone mentioned above it may be worth treating her like a puppy for a while, taking her out frequently and setting her up for success rather than waiting for failure. A work colleague has recently taken on an ex-racer and it's been really enlightening as to their quirks, they're simply not treated the same as a pet dog during their careers and may take a while to adjust.
 
Harpoon killing is the technique most widely practised, but it is a cruel method of killing, involving shooting a harpoon that detonates inside the whale's body. Death in this way can take anywhere between a minute and an hour, or even longer. Even David Attenborough, who often prefers to stay out of these discussions, has added his voice to the debate, asking whether whale hunting "should still be tolerated by a civilised society.

Sorry to hijack your post op but I agree with others about treating her as a puppy and going back to basics, I have a foster dog who has spent most of his life in kennels, I have him house trained now after 8 plus weeks but he is managed rather than house trained. I give him lots of opportunities to perform outside, when he dosnt go and I know I cant supervise him in the house I pop him into his crate with a kong or chew. Im setting him up for success by managing him this way, I dont think he will ever be a dog that will ask to go out of his own accord.
 
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