Can anyone name any top riders who started out as working pupils?

livvyc_ria

livvyc_ria

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Just wondering which top riders didn't come through the route of PC and young rider teams etc and started maybe a few years later than others after completing working pupil positions?
 
I think you'll probably find it was quite common amongst the older riders. Even Pippa was a working pupil for Ruth McMullen - she didn't start her career as one but I think it probably shaped her future! It seems more of a recent thing to me for people to come up through ponies/Juniors/YRs whilst based at home with their parents. Maybe it's a reflection of the increasing cost behind running top horses - those that can afford them often have the facilities at home and can have trainers come to them?
 
Even the ones who've come up through they system and have excellent training at home often do a stint at another yard - possibly more stable jockey and less working pupil, but hard work nonetheless! Harry Meade spent time with WFP, and Millie Dumas has spent some time there this winter.
 
In dressage there's Carl Hester who started riding for Dr Bechtolsheimer and then his pupil Charlotte Dujardin who started with Judy Harvey.
 
most of them, probably!
I think I remember reading that Andrew Nicholson worked for Mark Todd, and groomed for him at the Olympics (or maybe it was WEG)... is that impressive enough?!
tbh the other way, Junior, YR, then Senior team progression, has if anything been less likely. A lot of really really top J and YRs just didn't have the horses, the luck, the backing, whatever, to continue and cement their position at a senior level... perhaps partly because having has such major success early on they found it really tough mentally to cope with just being another adult rider who wasn't in the top few, if that makes sense?
 
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kerilli said:
most of them, probably!
I think I remember reading that Andrew Nicholson worked for Mark Todd, and groomed for him at the Olympics (or maybe it was WEG)... is that impressive enough?!
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He groomed for him at the Badminton hew won with Southern Comfort - it was just in a book I read.
Also Caroline Powell came over to work for Clive Storey and then groomed for Ian Stark at the Atlanta Olympics
 
Matt Ryan was a WP for Richard Meade (Harry's father). Ollie T and JP Sheffield were WPs for Kenneth Clawson. Austin O'Connor, Jade Lazenby, Vicky Tuffs, Aaron Millar, Sam Watson all graduated from the school of Wiegersma - the list is pretty much endless...
 
Terry Boon, Bumble Thomas and Piggy French are also from the school of Ruth Mcmullen.

WFP spent a year in Saumur.
 
This will reassure my daughter who is convinced that by not spending the money to go through the YRs etc, we will forever hold her back! Not that we have the money but she doesn't see that! I've told her to get stuck in as a WP and if she works hard, and is good enough, she'll get some rides. Or she'll discover boys. :D
 
I think this is a really interesting point, but to me the interest would be which of the current top young riders started out as working pupils?

My point is that in the past there were many well known training establishments as has been commented on above the likes of Ruth Mcmullen etc. However, where are these training establishments now? It is easy to go and be a WP for a name but very often you can be the only one there, work like a dog and not learn as much as you might as your boss will be away much of the time competing and concentrating on their own career.

Going back to Ruth Mcmullen, people would go to her to learn, yes they would still work like dogs but it was geared to training of the pupils not a groom with a bit of teaching on the side.

It does seem to be becoming increasingly the norm that young people are trained at home on their own horses – pity as it does put those without the horsepower/parental help at a disadvantage.
 
I agree Optimist- the interesting part is linking which riders were at which establishments with certain trainers as there does seem to be a trend for certain places/people to 'churn out' great riders.
 
thanks DarkHorseB, dang my patchy memory, i knew it was something like that.
don't forget Lars Sederholm's legendary 'academy', lots and lots of very very good riders came from there.
we need something similar nowadays. shame the Olympics couldn't have been held somewhere new and then the facilities made into such a training academy. *sigh*
 
Jeanette Brakewell was with Chris McGrann for a number of years which I believe is where she got the ride on 'Over to You'. I think she was a working pupil.
 
A large number of SJ'ers spend time riding in others yards i think. Billy Twomey was at Michael Whitakers, Ben Maher was based at a swiss riders yard if i recall. Many good riders come out of the Shockemohle yard and likewise Henk Noorens.

Most top riders learn their trade in many yards.
 
Swirlymurphy said:
This will reassure my daughter who is convinced that by not spending the money to go through the YRs etc, we will forever hold her back! Not that we have the money but she doesn't see that! I've told her to get stuck in as a WP and if she works hard, and is good enough, she'll get some rides. Or she'll discover boys. :D
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My daughter is doing this, figure it will make or break her. I have been surprised how much she is enjoying it. I have had to eat my words because she is the last person on earth I thought would handle the early mornings. I have lost count how many times she stayed in bed while I went to the yard. From what I have seen a lot of their parents help out, I know I have had to. It would not be so bad if she had given up her car as that is £115 a month just on insurance. Just make sure she has a really good look around as T&C's vary as does living accommodation. My daughter is very excited about the start of the season, so I hope all her hard work pays off. Good luck if that is the route she goes I am sure she will enjoy it if she gets in with the right people.
 
I think it depends a bit on how you define your terms - I don't think you'll find a top rider who hasn't worked for another top rider at some point. Horses are all about inherited feel and communal knowledge and other "intangibles" so just having a few horses at home simply doesn't give people the background. Even people like Alex Hua Tian have ridden for other people.

Re Phoebe, she left school at 13 :eek: to go to Tanya Liddle/Kyle and then was with Val Gingell who gave her the ride on The Busker.

But there are lots of ways to do it. After all, Ginny didn't work away, but she had top class schooling in all aspects at their own place.

Re parents helping . . .I don't think that's ever been different. After all, in the competitive programs, it's always been easier for people to get in if they've already shown some form. Plus, if you're not getting paid, someone has to at least buy your clothes and pay your travel! I know many working students who have already had some quite high level competitive experience, although that's more like an apprenticeship, I guess.

Anyway, if you don't have options then you gotta do what you gotta do. :)
 
But with all due respect, there is a great difference between parents helping by buying clothes and food and funding a top level horse/horses plus training.

My point is that the training establishments that existed in the past simply aren’t there any longer. I completely agree that there probably will not be any current top riders who haven’t worked for another rider at some point, but nowadays it is often for a couple of months at a time rather than the long term commitments of the past. Possibly as horses are being kept going at home whilst the rider is away gaining experience.

What I believe is missing is the places that young people can go to really learn horsemanship. By this I mean how to do the job on every single horse you sit on, not just how to press the buttons of the particular horse you are riding, which may well have been produced for you. The increase in this latter trend is obvious to me in the massive increases in the numbers of people on the pony/junior and to a lesser extent the young rider programmes.

I suppose the question is, will this success by these new methods translate to the senior ranks? Due to the earlier responses to this post I don’t think it has yet as all of our senior riders seem to have “done their time” as working pupils in some form, but I believe this is a relatively new phenomenon and we need to ask this question in ten years time.
 
Optimist said:
What I believe is missing is the places that young people can go to really learn horsemanship. By this I mean how to do the job on every single horse you sit on, not just how to press the buttons of the particular horse you are riding, which may well have been produced for you. The increase in this latter trend is obvious to me in the massive increases in the numbers of people on the pony/junior and to a lesser extent the young rider programmes.
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George Morris agrees with you, hence the symposium mentioned on another thread. ;)

I do get your point and I think there is a lot to it, although other countries have not ever really had those centralised training set ups and have managed to produce some good riders. Even the US hasn't really had anything since Gladstone and that's a generation back now. I do think even the UK produced good riders outside of those systems though, so that should give some hope.

I do agree the calibre and number at JR and YR levels has increased exponentially but I wonder if those ranks are a bit of a loss leader. Very few of those kids do go on to be professionals and certainly not every professional has excelled in that system. I suspect the stand out stars would have been stand out stars in the past, too, perhaps in Pony Club then entering the adult ranks very young, as prodigies used to do. I do think success in those levels brings attention and possibly financial support, but it also brings a lot of pressure and can dump people in at the deep end, not because they necessarily want to be there but because other people want things from them.

On the same note, super supportive parents are obviously a blessing but they can also be a curse. I've seen quite a few kids who would really have benefited from going away and growing up but its the parents who prevented it and denied their children the tools necessary to become a good professional. Again, lots of these kids get a few rides but if they can't make anything of them and they can't sustain a business, it ends up in the same place.

Now, if we're talking sustaining a business, having a facility that is not entirely paid for by horses is a HUGE bonus and, in fact, there are very few at the top without some "behind the scenes" family support. But that doesn't mean everyone and, as I said, you gotta go with what you've got!
 
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I think TS and Optimist make a very interesting point here.

I think it will take some years before we start to see if the huge increase in training and funding and programmes for YR and ponies makes a difference to the sport at top level. It is almost impossible to do well at these programmes without a horse produced for you, which you have learned to ride. That does not mean a young rider cannot also be riding lots of other horses though, but without the experience of sitting on lots of different horses and producing your own, IMO will be difficult to do well as a senior. But maybe not so if your parents buy you horses forever?
 
If I was a young rider I'd want to be in an establishment that could offer me everything I'd need to make a living out of horses,

The Billy stud comes to mind,

International trainers
Breeding side of things
Business planning and marketing
Liaison with clients, owners, sponsors etc etc
Opportunity to compete nationally and internationally
Huge array of horses all at differing levels to train / ride on.
etc etc

I personally wouldn't think there a huge value in being with a one man band fire fighting his / her own living.
 
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