Can anyone talk me through these x rays- vet/farrier/EP's...

[Michen]

Hi all,

Hopefully some of you lovely lot from my last thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...-horse-was-sound-got-shod-and-is-now-crippled

will be able to shed some light on this.

My new farrier is coming on Thursday so I will of course go through everything then, to be honest when I spoke to him and the vet the day these x rays were done my mind was just so fuzzy and I was finding it hard to take everything in. All a bit emotional. To top it off had a disasterous scope this morning which was seriously traumatic urgh. This little horse has only been with me for three months having arrived off the track depressed and pretty broken. We have worked our way through horrendous mouth problems, back problems, skin problems and now we have the feet to deal with. I am absolutely throwing the book at him here with the blind hope that I can get him right and even if he can't do what I want him to do he can be a happy hack for someone (I only want to do RC activities!). In way too deep to back out now so here goes!

Anyway, vet and farrier have said his prognosis is "guarded" on the basis of these x rays. If you could read the thread I've copied before commenting that would be really useful

Just as a side note- I am going down the remedial farrier route first (at a cost of £180 quid a month... for fronts only!!) and if that doesn't produce results I'll be delving in to the world of barefoot. But I need to give this a shot first and place some trust in my vet and farrier.

Anyone got any thoughts on these x rays?

 

[Andalucian]

Hi, the right fore is the worst, ground parallel coffin bone and a very weak digital cushion, under run heels too. Absolutely no further material to be removed at the heels. Vet/farrier will want to jack them up in raised pads, gel inserts, maybe even bar shoes. All are best avoided as although they will make him "appear" more comfy short term, they actually crush the heels further forward making the long term problem worse. Bring the toe wall back to reduce the leverage at the toe, but don't lower it, there is not enough to work with.

I'd keep it simple while you deal with the ulcers, as the problems in the gut will make his feet more difficult to bring sound barefoot.

If he were mine, I'd remove the shoes, provide a very soft environment for him until he could cope with concrete. Then I'd use hoof boots and pad inserts cut in a specific way to assist him. But in a normal yard with stoney tracks between fields he just won't cope right now.

He would be the sort of horse to send to a barefoot rehabilitation centre where knowledgable people could get him through transition, we are talking 3 months minimum to become sound unshod on hard surfaces here I would guess.

 

[ester]

Frank had a similar angle on his coffin bone. We managed to make his heels look better in shoes but I am not sure it is possible to functionally increase the heels while the horse is still in shoes as if you wedge etc you just end up crushing them longer term (by vet was v. keen not to wedge!).

We never re-xrayed but the disappearance of the bullnosing/better concavity indicates we have probably moved the coffin bone back but I think that is only because barefoot enabled all the internal structures at the back of the hoof to work correctly and beef up to push the pedal bone back into a better position. It's probably still not perfect as he still has flatter than ideal soles but much much better.

Following up from the other post (his RF does make me a bit sad to look at!) where I think Andalucian suggested he probably wouldn't be the easiest to transition, I guess he might be better to stay shod at the moment but longer term some time out of shoes at some point.

 

[JillA]

I'm no expert but I do know that Nic at Rockley Farm has rehabbed a lot of horses with chronic foot problems. Why not ask her?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

If this was my horse I wouldn't let remedial shoes within 50ft of the poor beast and I'd be on the phone to Rockley.

I don't know if I linked this video for you before, but remedial shoeing is starting to be outdated now and BF rehabs are becoming the way forwards. Don't let your horse suffer further because your Vet and Farrier are behind the times. http://www.thehorse.com/videos/34609/is-the-hoof-smart-adaptability-of-the-equine-foot

 

[Michen]

Frank had a similar angle on his coffin bone. We managed to make his heels look better in shoes but I am not sure it is possible to functionally increase the heels while the horse is still in shoes as if you wedge etc you just end up crushing them longer term (by vet was v. keen not to wedge!).

We never re-xrayed but the disappearance of the bullnosing/better concavity indicates we have probably moved the coffin bone back but I think that is only because barefoot enabled all the internal structures at the back of the hoof to work correctly and beef up to push the pedal bone back into a better position. It's probably still not perfect as he still has flatter than ideal soles but much much better.

Following up from the other post (his RF does make me a bit sad to look at!) where I think Andalucian suggested he probably wouldn't be the easiest to transition, I guess he might be better to stay shod at the moment but longer term some time out of shoes at some point.

I think this is my plan for now. I think within a couple of shoeings I should know if the situation is improving and can then take another view. He will be re x rayed in a few months to keep on top of it as well. In my (potentially wrong) view, if the farrier can't have him in near enough normal shoes with his feet looking a hell of a lot better within 6 months, then I'll be pulling the shoes. If it works and he improves and is sound then I'd like to pull the shoes in October anyway to give his feet a break regardless, though probably starting with the backs.

I just don't know... maybe I'm doing the wrong thing, I completely understand all the arguments for pulling shoes ASAP but equally, remedial shoeing has worked for lots of people and at the end of the day if it can even help a little bit he's got a better chance of being able to have some time out of shoes without being completely crippled straight away. I would think. Arghh!

 

[Michen]

Hi, the right fore is the worst, ground parallel coffin bone and a very weak digital cushion, under run heels too. Absolutely no further material to be removed at the heels. Vet/farrier will want to jack them up in raised pads, gel inserts, maybe even bar shoes. All are best avoided as although they will make him "appear" more comfy short term, they actually crush the heels further forward making the long term problem worse. Bring the toe wall back to reduce the leverage at the toe, but don't lower it, there is not enough to work with.

I'd keep it simple while you deal with the ulcers, as the problems in the gut will make his feet more difficult to bring sound barefoot.

If he were mine, I'd remove the shoes, provide a very soft environment for him until he could cope with concrete. Then I'd use hoof boots and pad inserts cut in a specific way to assist him. But in a normal yard with stoney tracks between fields he just won't cope right now.

He would be the sort of horse to send to a barefoot rehabilitation centre where knowledgable people could get him through transition, we are talking 3 months minimum to become sound unshod on hard surfaces here I would guess.

Thank you Andalucian, much appreciated. I think I'm still going to give my farrier and vet a shot (not that I don't value your advice- I really very much do) and if they can't improve the situation then his shoes will be pulled. We shall see.... x rays will inform!

 

[be positive]

I can see why you want to go with the vet, not sure I would with a horse that has probably had long term issues and those xrays but you have to rely on the professionals you know, what I would do while he is in shoes, it will help with ulcers as well, is to get the diet as barefoot friendly as you can, try to condition the feet as much as you can with shoes on, treat the frogs and soles regularly to get them functioning as best they can, watch carefully for any signs of thrush which may well be a problem in remedial shoes.
I would also get the hinds off so they are ahead of the fronts in transitioning, you will get a good guide of how he is doing if they are unshod, having the hinds in good nick will help if and when the fronts have to come off, taking all 4 off could be a step too far if done in one go.

I rehabbed a horse with poor xrays, he went into bar shoes for 2 sets, then gradually returned to normal shoes, we did spend some time bare which helped develop the heels, frogs and soles but he had to be shod to compete, eventing, so went back into them after a winter unshod, he stayed sound, although he was not really lame to start with, it only showed when flexion tested and the feet did improve significantly, diet played an important part, he did not have ulcers but had symptoms so was managed very carefully.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have never seen remedial shoeing help a horses heels .
I have seen good shoeing help over several shoeings to begin to bring the toe back .
However if this where my horse it would be a shoes off job experience has taught me that the heel is the most important thing you have to put in a situation to improve and my experience that is best done without shoes .
The route you are taking will be expensive and IMO unlikely to be successful whereas BF is relatively inexpensive in cash but expensive in owners time and effort which to me is a better way forward .
I have a TB here who had similar set of X-rays he had 18 months without shoes and has not looked back he spends part of every year unshod now .
I understand you going down the remedial shoeing route and one thing you can do now is get the horse onto the optimal diet ( the BF diet if you like ) and you need to sort the ulcers if he has them.
My TB Was helped greatly by six months on a double dose of protexin . I tried several hoof health type supplements and farriers formula helped a lot but the best result I saw was from the forage plus performance balancers .
I hope you get him right , I did my horses rehab at home ( easier than livery I know ) with help from the vet and a super trimmer .

 

[Michen]

I have never seen remedial shoeing help a horses heels .
I have seen good shoeing help over several shoeings to begin to bring the toe back .
However if this where my horse it would be a shoes off job experience has taught me that the heel is the most important thing you have to put in a situation to improve and my experience that is best done without shoes .
The route you are taking will be expensive and IMO unlikely to be successful whereas BF is relatively inexpensive in cash but expensive in owners time and effort which to me is a better way forward .
I have a TB here who had similar set of X-rays he had 18 months without shoes and has not looked back he spends part of every year unshod now .
I understand you going down the remedial shoeing route and one thing you can do now is get the horse onto the optimal diet ( the BF diet if you like ) and you need to sort the ulcers if he has them.
My TB Was helped greatly by six months on a double dose of protexin . I tried several hoof health type supplements and farriers formula helped a lot but the best result I saw was from the forage plus performance balancers .
I hope you get him right , I did my horses rehab at home ( easier than livery I know ) with help from the vet and a super trimmer .

Thanks Goldenstar. Ridiculously, the scope was awful today. He wouldn't swallow for love or money and when we did finally get into the stomach we could only get to the main wall, the scope kept kinking etc and it was just pretty disasterous all round. Luckily we got a tiny red patch on camera- enough to send to the insurance company so he's on gastroguard as of now and will re assess in two weeks. I'll look into the forage plus- thank you!

 

[Michen]

I can see why you want to go with the vet, not sure I would with a horse that has probably had long term issues and those xrays but you have to rely on the professionals you know, what I would do while he is in shoes, it will help with ulcers as well, is to get the diet as barefoot friendly as you can, try to condition the feet as much as you can with shoes on, treat the frogs and soles regularly to get them functioning as best they can, watch carefully for any signs of thrush which may well be a problem in remedial shoes.
I would also get the hinds off so they are ahead of the fronts in transitioning, you will get a good guide of how he is doing if they are unshod, having the hinds in good nick will help if and when the fronts have to come off, taking all 4 off could be a step too far if done in one go.

I rehabbed a horse with poor xrays, he went into bar shoes for 2 sets, then gradually returned to normal shoes, we did spend some time bare which helped develop the heels, frogs and soles but he had to be shod to compete, eventing, so went back into them after a winter unshod, he stayed sound, although he was not really lame to start with, it only showed when flexion tested and the feet did improve significantly, diet played an important part, he did not have ulcers but had symptoms so was managed very carefully.

Thank you, that is encouraging to hear. His diet is already barefoot friendly ( I think!) as ulcer diets seem to be more or less the same? Low sugar, low starch etc. He's currently on Saracen super fibre pencils, speedi beet, topchop lite (I've switched from healthy tummy as worried about the alfalfa with his feet) and just starting some micronized linseed. I am looking to change this to pure feeds though- if he will eat it.

I will do what I can for him- vets and farriers have a timeline- so I'll know when enough is enough and to pull those shoes. Fingers crossed

 

[ester]

I think if/when you do go bare you will find it a lot easier if you have someone like Andalucian on side who can advise on boots/keeping him comfortable. I said on another thread recently I do think it is important they are kept comfortable enough during transitioning. Or if not considering sending him somewhere like rockley with conforming/soft surfaces as Andalucian says, and shoeing him now will give you a bit of time to consider all those options too.

 

[Andalucian]

Thank you Andalucian, much appreciated. I think I'm still going to give my farrier and vet a shot (not that I don't value your advice- I really very much do) and if they can't improve the situation then his shoes will be pulled. We shall see.... x rays will inform!

It's OK we all have our own journey and you need to consider the whole situation you're in, just remember, remedial shoeing will make it appear more comfortable, but don't be fooled, he needs to be happy in normal shoes before you accept it's working. Good luck with him, show me the next X-rays too xx

 

[HaffiesRock]

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say how amazing you are OP and how lucky your horse is.

 

[Michen]

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say how amazing you are OP and how lucky your horse is.

Oh thank you xx He makes it easy with his charming personality! I actually only went to view him as I won a bet on him at Kempton Park a couple of years ago (one of the few bets I have ever won hence why so memorable!) and it bought us all a bottle of champers- guess he's getting repaid now

The big ex national hunt horse I was after ended up being a scrawny messed up little sprinter, but it will be so worthwhile if he comes out the other side of all this.

 

[Michen]

It's OK we all have our own journey and you need to consider the whole situation you're in, just remember, remedial shoeing will make it appear more comfortable, but don't be fooled, he needs to be happy in normal shoes before you accept it's working. Good luck with him, show me the next X-rays too xx

I agree- as does my farrier thankfully. I am sceptical and I think in my heart of hearts I know barefoot is probably the way this ends up going, but hey ho- I've started this road now and will see it through until neddy tells me enough is enough. I'll post them when I have them, couple of months I would think! Thanks again for all your help

 

[Goldenstar]

Oh thank you xx He makes it easy with his charming personality! I actually only went to view him as I won a bet on him at Kempton Park a couple of years ago (one of the few bets I have ever won hence why so memorable!) and it bought us all a bottle of champers- guess he's getting repaid now

The big ex national hunt horse I was after ended up being a scrawny messed up little sprinter, but it will be so worthwhile if he comes out the other side of all this.

That's a lovely story, he's so lucky .