Can Horses have Autism?

DabDab

DabDab

Thinks the luddites had a point...
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I know this is a strange question, and it is not something that I ever considered of thought about until I got me current youngster. I have grown up with Autistic family members and this horse really seems to exhibit the same symptoms. In the most basic way he is completely socially inept around other horses, despite the fact that he lived out in a mixed herd for the first 3 1/2 years of his life, barely toughed by human hands. If he's out in the field with another horse he spends his time either running away (from even the most docile creature), or touching them inappropriately (e.g. taking their whole tail in his mouth and pulling on it.).

I love him to bits and I wouldn't be without him, but he really is an odd creature - great memory though.

I did some research on the possibility of this on the internet and found this article on mice, but it's not completely relevant. I just wondered if anyone else has ever noticed similar personality traits in a horse or knows of any research - it's purely to satisfy my own curiosity.
 
I think it would be extremely difficult to say whether horses can actually be autistic, especially given the difficulty in diagnosing it in its 'original species' ie, humans. The range of social and cognitive functions in different species are not necessarily comparable and so what is 'normal' in one species may not be a 'normal' outworking in another. The difficulties with social interaction is only one aspect of autism anyway and in itself would not be a conclusive diagnosis...

BUT, I found this an interesting thread as my RI has described one of the RS horses in this way - if he was human, he would be autistic (she work with RDA and children with autism BTW). She was not trying to say she thought the horse WAS autistic, but that aspects of his mindset seemed to echo those of autistic individuals - which actually was helpful in understanding his personality and how to ride him to get the best out of him. Although anthropomorphising is a risky business, I think it can sometimes help humans understand another species if they can be described in human terms.

Bit waffly, sorry!
 
Oh I agree with you, it would be almost impossible to say for certain either way. However, there have been huge advances in using brain scan technology to diagnose humans with ASDs in recent years, so you never know. I only gave the social interaction example of his behaviour purely because I thought on the forum would be able to relate to it.
I have also done a lot of work with the RDA and used to work in a special school so I have considered that I may be drawing parallels that aren't there, it would make an interesting research project though...
 
FubsyMog said:
if he was human, he would be autistic
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Agree with this, my pony has been described as if he was human he would be autistic too by many, including my instructor after 10 mins of meeting him and someone who's son is autistic.

He's a bit OCD too and needs to touch stuff with his mouth and things need to be just so, he's totally strange but is very talented. I have not pandered to this pony in the beginning we tried to stop him doing his various 'behaviours' but now we just accept his quirks and work with them.

I do think you can't project human behaviours on horses, but if it helps and can make someone more understanding and patient then that's no bad thing.
 
It would definitely be interesting research. That's also interesting that there is work with brain scans to try and see a physical difference in ASD and non-ASD brains, rather than relying on behavioural and psychological symptoms which requires interpretation - and different interpretation can result in a different diagnosis (or the difference between diagnosis and no diagnosis). I am interested in this because I am fairly certain I have undiagnosed Asperger's, mainly because my parents interpreted various behaviours that I now know to be central to ASDs as me 'acting up' or 'being awkward'. When I started having real difficulties and was looked at by the medical profession, my parents didn't bother to mention these things as they didn't perceive them as relevant to the bigger picture. A physical difference that is measurable may well have helped in my case ( and I am sure many others).
 
Autism isn't a human behaviour, it's a syndrome with physiological as well as behavioural symptoms. So this thread is a more like pondering whether a horse could have asthma or hayfeaver than pondering whether horses can be decietful or fall in love.
 
Yes the brain scan research is fascinating - you can look it up using google scholar. Because ASD affects neuro-pathway taken by an electrical impulse given out by the brain they get participants to carry out particular activities while their brain is scanned.
 
DabDab said:
Autism isn't a human behaviour, it's a syndrome with physiological as well as behavioural symptoms. .
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I am actually learning a lot from this - what symptoms of ASD are classed as physiological? I would presume things like poor co-ordination and differences in sensory perception? I ask because in my own case (without wanting to rabbit on, but this is helpful to me!), although I displayed these symptoms, it was interpreted as behavioural - although I couldn't alter how I moved or experienced stimuli, my parents presumed I could and was just refusing to do so.
 
I think its possible. I believe there are plenty of animals, not just horses that could be too.

I find this sort of thing very interesting, we know horses grieve when one of the herd passes away but I know of horses who hated being in a herd and would much rather be on their own ( Strange behaviour for a herd animal? Maybe these horses were Autistic?!)
 
At last ...people that think/know re Autism/OCD etc etc . My OH and our son both have severe Dyslexia , I could be slightly OCD or is it me being tidy and time saving !?I know that the way one of my horses is she would be classed as OCD . She has to have a good look at something before moving past it , as tho she has to figure what it is , eye sees one thing but the messg to the brain is different . I think if you live with people or have the above then you recognise the signs , but when you try to explain it to people who havent had any experience then they have no idea what you're talking about !
 
Without going into the biological reason for it a relatively common physiological symptom is having a bit of a love-hate relationship with being touched, as in sometime they simply cannot bear being touched. A related symptom is being highly sensitive to particular sensations such as the feel of wool or rubber or a single piece of hay on their hair. - and then on the flip side wanting to touch everything.
This is another thing that I see in my youngster - he will seriously invade my personal space one minute, craving to be touched, and the next minute I will be stroking him and he will become agitated and quite literally have to get down and roll as if he's trying to get rid of the sensation.
 
DabDab said:
Without going into the biological reason for it a relatively common physiological symptom is having a bit of a love-hate relationship with being touched, as in sometime they simply cannot bear being touched. A related symptom is being highly sensitive to particular sensations such as the feel of wool or rubber or a single piece of hay on their hair. .
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Yes, this is what I meant by sensory issues. I struggled a lot (still do with this) but it was assumed I was 'making a scene' rather than experiencing a physical unpleasant sensation. The reason I asked for clarification i that I think sometimes people have difficulty distinguishing between a physiological experience and a behavioural/psychological one when there is nothing obviously visible. For example, if your arm is broken and you flinch when it's touched, people understand that is a reasonable reaction. If you flinch because someone has lightly brushed your (non-broken) arm, that is harder for them to accept because they can't SEE the problem. Somethingillremember - I agree, it's so hard to explain to people with no experience of the issue because of the above.

Gastric ulcers in horses would seem to have a similar problem - trying to determine whether the behaviour has a psych/behavioural root, or whether it is an outworking of a physical problem. Obviously scoping can confirm, but if the owner fails to interpret the behavior as potentially a symptom rather than the cause, the horse doesn't get diagnosed.
 
This is a funny thread as we were discussing this the other day- Jazz is infamously anti social. SHe will live out with other horses but is isnt bothered in being their best pal. When kept in, she likes to have a stable where she can't be looked at by other horses so she has her own stable in its own building. We put a pony next to her that she can see if she wishes but it can't see her. SHe probably doesn't care that he's there.

She can be fussy about you touching her etc and is incredibly grumpy, but likes certain things and is the perfect angel at most competitions and just flourishes. If she feels overwhelmed though she will shut down and have a tantrum.

She's had numerous screenings over the years and her owner often states that she thinks she probably has some sort of mental problem, such as autism.

Lovely horse and easy to work with when you understand her- quirky mare. But after her owner saying that it makes you wonder....
 
I work at a special needs school and find numerous similarities between horses and children with autism! no offense meant to either!
horses mostly love their routine, similar to those with autism, they are also able to spot the most subtle differences and sometimes make a big deal out of it e.g. one tiny new thing when out on a hack that we never notice- exactly the same as some children who can walk into class and notice one chair has moved or there is a new piece of paper on the notice board.
I think autistic people and horses can also both find things threatening that we don't think about, change is scary to them
there is also a lot of over lap with OCD I think, and like the spectrum of autism, horses seem to vary on a scale in their behaviour that appears autistic or ocd
 
What pipixox said. My ex is autistic and worked as a teacher at a special residential school for severe autistics and he noticed a lot of parallels between how I treat my horse and how you treat a severely autistic child eg don't surprise them, show them things before you do them.
 
Yes you're quite right - that is why horses and dogs are used so effectively as therapy for those with ASD and Dyspraxia (there are quite a few overlaps in the nature of the two conditions). The natural psychological makeup of horses and dogs has a lot of parallels to the apparent psychological makeup of those with ASD in all but the social 'herd' instincts of a horse. Horses and dogs have a high level of social intelligence (if you care to classify it in that way), which is why we can train them so effectively. So what about a horse that doesn't seem to have this natural social ability?

The technical term for a species of animal that mimics the symptoms of Autism in humans is an 'Autism Savant' - in case anyone's interested.
 
pippixox said:
I work at a special needs school and find numerous similarities between horses and children with autism! no offense meant to either!
horses mostly love their routine, similar to those with autism, they are also able to spot the most subtle differences and sometimes make a big deal out of it e.g. one tiny new thing when out on a hack that we never notice- exactly the same as some children who can walk into class and notice one chair has moved or there is a new piece of paper on the notice board.
I think autistic people and horses can also both find things threatening that we don't think about, change is scary to them
there is also a lot of over lap with OCD I think, and like the spectrum of autism, horses seem to vary on a scale in their behaviour that appears autistic or ocd
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I think this is also where we get into the current trend to attribute pathological causes to completely normal behaviours. Many people want to "understand" their horses but they want to do it within a human framework and so any behaviour that doesn't correspond to what we consider "normal" for people (which is a whole different conversation . . .) is then labeled abnormal even if it's not in a person. Needing to have a closer look at something new, the inclination to react to even minor changes, using lips as sensory organs . . .these are "normal" horse behaviours, ones we actually "train" out of many horses. The fact that some horses are more inclined to hold on to those behaviours may have as much to do with their training and environment as their individual mental make up. What may be so unusual as to be cause for concern in a child might be perfectly normal in a horse or a cow. (Dogs are, behaviourally speaking SOMEWHAT closer because of their status as predators, the way they interact socially, and the fact that they have lived WITH people - vs having been kept by people - for many generations now.)

I think there are horses that are mentally ill and/or brain damaged to a pathological (ie non-functioning as a HORSE) degree but my experience is you know them when you see them!
 
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OK, so drop the term Autism, so that we're not talking about a human condition and just go with a definition:
'An individual that is born with or develops (for no reason other than nature) a neurological condition that means that they differ from the species 'norm' significantly enough that it may be diagnosable.'
Do you think that is possible in horses (or any other species for that matter), or is a horse a horse and they all have different personalities and quirks?

NB. My youngster has only been touched by my hands, is relatively laid back and straightforward and is as correct to ride as any other horse I have backed.
 
Bearing in mind that scientists have found that homosexuality is prevalent in species other than humans.

I'm not really sure if I'm certain either way, this horse has just made me think that's all, and it's interesting what people have said on both sides so far.
 
The homosexuality thing is actually a more complicated conversation. First off, it is not a consistent 'condition' over the two sexes in expression, possible 'causes' etc. Also, there is a difference between 'behaviour' and 'identification', based at least partially on perception. The general feeling is that animals are not 'gay' in the way that people can be, although they can certainly practice homosexual behaviours and form same-sex attachments.

Anyway, I digress. :) My point is that's not a particularly good parallel with a neurological or psychological disorder, and not just for the obvious reasons.

Back to the discussion of whether or not their are animals with psychological/neurological disorders that render them 'abnormal' or pathological.

My experience would say yes. I knew 3 siblings by different stallions, raised on a large stud that bred 20 odd foals a year, and they were all demonstrably, dangerously 'not right'. Perhaps the mare raised them in a way that engendered their problems but even then, not in an obvious way. I've certainly met horses that have been 'made' pathological and many others that we would never know why they turned out the way they did. The handful I've met that were just 'born that way' were different in a way I can't really describe. There are certainly lines of horses known to throw up 'mad 'uns', especially tbs, where temperament will always play second fiddle to speed and stamina.

So yes, I'm sure there are horses that are just pathological using an equine standard. But that doesn't mean horses that don't act the way we want/expect are pathological in the context of their own species.
 
Yes sorry, the homosexual analogy was probably clumsy. It's interesting that you talk about horses that may be considered 'pathological' as an example of an 'abnormality', because I have certainly met a couple who were born predisposed to having an aggressive response. But your right - I'm quite sure that horses have no concept whatsoever of normality, they just go with the flow, which means that all this is just through human eyes anyway.
 
Well yes, that's more or less what I mean, but I allow that there are horses so far removed from 'normal' that they are unable to cope in any kind of normal horsey situation. For instance, one of the siblings I mentioned used to climb up her stable walls to the extent she cut her legs and eventually damaged her joints. She was also a 'flipper' - she chucked herself over backwards if she got upset enough. Her siblings displayed different but equally alarming behaviours. As I said, they had almost 'ideal' horsey childhoods and there was simply no obvious reason they were such crackpots. They also looked 'wrong' in their faces.

I would suspect that, like in people, 'mental illness' in horses comes from a combination of causes. So a horse can have a predisposition that is then triggered by an external influence.

Only tangentially related but on the idea of what 'we' are or are not responsible for, it's generally considered that stereotypies, such as weaving, box walking etc. (which one can argue bear similarities to both OCD behaviours and the sorts of repetitive motions children on the autism spectrum can display) are 'caused' by the way we keep animals. But I was watching a group of deer once, where one of them, an adolescent, was clearly more active/anxious than the others. When they queued up to hop over a gap in the fence Anxious Deer, who was quite far down the order, started to weave like a fiend. I don't know if it was my imagination but it also looked to me like the other deer were inching away from it. :D It was very interesting to see a completely wild display a confinement vice we generally consider to be a management issue.
 
Yeh that is interesting. I'm sure the other horses inch away from my boy too:o The partition walls of our stables are chest height so the horses can touch each other over the walls and today he was resolutely attempting to lick the face of the neighbouring mare while she bared and gnashed her teeth at him with ears flat back against her head. If not autistic he is definitely odd.:D
 
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