Can horses/ponies have a type of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

P

Patches

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 February 2005
Messages
10,028
Visit site
Hannah has been going so well with the lovely Oliver. I knew we were buying a green youngster so of course I expected mishaps along the way. However, last night he did something totally out of character, twice, and I'm wondering about the possible causes.

Basically, he led in out of the field as calm and "donkey-fied" as normal. Head lowered, chilled out. Was fine to be tacked up and Hannah popped on him and walked around on him whilst I tacked up Patches. He wasn't sharp or on his toes. He was perfectly calm and well mannered.

He trotted a couple of strides and then bolted across the field, dumping Hannah when he stopped dead in a corner. He ran off and then came to a halt shaking visibly as we approached him.

Hannah walked him around for a few minutes and he was calm and seemed happy. She agreed to hop back on and follow Patches around, in walk. We walked for 15 minutes. Lots of circles, serpentines, figures of eight, halt etc etc.

I then decided to cross the diagonal and trot to the other side. My thinking being that there was a corner we were heading into that would stop him if he took off. We'd trotted a few strides when I'd asked Hannah how he felt. She said "tense". As she said that, he again bolted in a straight line across the field and this time Hannah was deposited in the nettles growing along the holly hedge line. He was squat down low to the floor as he was galloping...legs everywhere. Again he soon came to a halt and again he stood shaking.

Shocked by his actions, I wonder if he is indeed fresh as he'd had 11 days off. Decide to try and lunge him for a bit to see if he settles. He was exactly the same on the lunge both with and without tack. He was noticeably terrified of the lunge line and there was no way I could pick up the lungeing whip. He would either back off as I tried to come to a position to drive him forwards on the lunge or he would trot and then take off.

He had his back done on the 2nd August and his teeth were done in June. Saddle is a new saddle that was fitted to him in July.

My reasons for wondering about PTSD?

Hannah used to have lessons with someone I will describe as X. The last lesson Hannah had with her Oliver was snatching the reins out of Hannah's hands so X got on board to see if she could sort him out. What happened next (meaning how she rode) resulted in Oliver rearing full up and then taking off around the arena. X was then, for whatever reason, hitting him with the loop of reins in her hand on the side of his head repeatedly before then hitting with a whip on the side of his face.

We left and haven't been back since. Do you think he's worried that someone is going to push him hard (as the lessons were very intense) and then beat him up?

How do I help him through this? He doesn't distrust us on the ground but he does flinch when you initially touch a brush on his neck.
 
I don't know about PTSD, but it is quite likely that something is triggering off memories of his awful time with the instructor which is causing him to bolt. Could be as simple as Hannah moving her whip or doing something with her hands that connects in his mind with what happened before and triggers his flight mechanism.

Sounds very frightening for both of you, whatever the cause.
crazy.gif
 
I am very aware that it causes lots of 'tut tutting' when well meaning but ignorant people try to advise. So I won't try and advise you, Patches, as I haven't had experience of this, just give you my thoughts.
I do think you may be quite right about the association of schooling with that awful teacher
shocked.gif
and therefore only time and patience will undo what was done in Oliver's mind.

You don't say how long ago this fateful lesson was, or how much schooling Hannah has done with him since. If it was recent, and he hasn't done any intense schooling since then, I would be sure that the beating round his head (
shocked.gif
) is to blame. He needs to make new associations to replace that one, and time, consistency and kindness will do the trick. But it will take a lot of courage on Hannah's part, I think. What a shame.
 
Thanks M_M, I know what you mean about advising etc.

With going away and other commitments (namely Hannah going to her dad's) it was only the third time Hannah had ridden after "that lesson". She rode a few days later at a PC rally which went well and then had a lesson with the PC instructor a week later which didn't go so well. No bolting, but Oliver dropped and rolled on Hannah in the lesson as the sand seemed rather too tempting. Cheeky monkey.

He wasn't shouted at or reprimanded for that at all as alot of them try that type of thing occasionally. We just popped her back on and kept him moving forwards more actively.

I never thought to lunge him before she rode as I genuinely didn't see anything about him that made me think he'd be fresh. Indeed he didn't appear fresh, his head was very low and he was almost sleepy.

I'd say I'd stick to lungeing him and grooming for a while but he was so terrified of the lunge line last night, it was unreal. He's previously lunged without hitch.
 
I would think its very likely that his experience is now causing him problems...
If one of my clients found themselves in this position I would firstly suggest the norm, teeth, back saddle etc then I would suggest going back to some basics to build up his confidence in his rider again and build up his riders confidence in him...

I would want horse and RIDER to go back to doing the kind of ground work you'd do with a youngster you are preparing for backing....
 
Poor Oliver and poor Hannah, do you think he might have tweaked something in his back when he reared with the other instructor, it might be worth checking it out, I hope it sorts itself out,
 
I can't really get Hannah to lunge or long line him though as she's only 9 years old.

I'm going to call our EDT and ask when he's next in our area again. Oliver is only 5 so it's possible that there are teething issues on top of anything else which could explain this behaviour.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the lesson with the instructor and it's me who's been left more traumatised by seeing what happened that day! Will rule teeth out for sure but his back and saddle were only checked about 3 weeks ago.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Poor Oliver and poor Hannah, do you think he might have tweaked something in his back when he reared with the other instructor, it might be worth checking it out, I hope it sorts itself out,

[/ QUOTE ]

He's had his back "done" since then though on the 2nd of this month. We have an osteo and she was pleased with his back as it was better than the time she came a couple of months previous to that.
 
Have you got a lightweight rider who can ride him to try him out again before Hannah gets on him,, or maybe put him on the leid rein for a bit, so if he does react the same you have hold of him and hannah less likely to fall off?
 
[ QUOTE ]





Shocked by his actions, I wonder if he is indeed fresh as he'd had 11 days off. Decide to try and lunge him for a bit to see if he settles. He was exactly the same on the lunge both with and without tack. He was noticeably terrified of the lunge line and there was no way I could pick up the lungeing whip. He would either back off as I tried to come to a position to drive him forwards on the lunge or he would trot and then take off.




[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Patches

I think this paragraph shows part of the problem, espeially the "not been ridden for 11 days"

Horses, especially young ones, need a routine - work, consistently in a calm manner. It is how they learn and how you put the basics in place. By consistently I mean if you dont want to ride every day, dont, alternate riding with lungeing - if you lunged every other day, he would soon get used to the line/whip. It is how horses learn!

Please dont let him frighten you, the horse sounds terrified, just maybe try and get him into a routine, even if it was 20 mins work per day. Young horses also try you out - like with the rolling thing, they see how much they can get away with.

ETS And dont let that instructor near him!
 
How scary. Poor Hanah, and poor Oli.

Firstly, I always think it takes a good few months for a horse or pony to settle into a new home. certainally, we've seen more of the 'real' pony recently in ours, we've had him since January. In that time he has done allsorts, even to the point of me wondering if we should just sell him as a companion
frown.gif
. But again, the more work he does, the more time he has, the better he is.

I would certainally get his back and teeth done, saddle re checked etc. Have Hannah ride minus a whip. He's young and foward going... she diesnt need one for basic schooling.
Try and do more hacking. For the time being do this on the LR. Youngsters can turn very sour if their schooling outweighs their hacking.
It does sound like this insructor may have caused him issues. She may not have done, but it's worth keeping in mind when he's being worked, just in case.

If it were me I would lunge him in walk daily, and take him back to long reining too. If a lunge whip terrifies him, don't push it. Use a schooling whip to start with, just to de sensitise him (Ours was terrified of whips, and can now be lunged with one and ridden with a short crop). Once he's used to being lunged and does so happily, lunge him with Hannah on board, to build both their confidences.
 
I would definately get your EDT out to have a little look. Has he got any woolf teeth?

The other thing that springs to mind is No. 1 was there a Bot fly in the field - I have seen horses just go loopy when they're around, No. 2 he was being a little bugger, or No. 3 yes, he was upset after the battering he got from the instructor.

No advice - just ideas for you.
 
Patches, where is he in your siggie eh?
wink.gif

Poor Hannah
frown.gif
Poor Ollie
frown.gif

I recommend: some time and patience and perhaps a visit from the vet too.
xx
 
I think it's entirely possible that it has triggered something in him. No advice, except with plenty of patient handling he'll have more good memories than bad.

Meg has a similar response to shoeing. Somewhere in her life she'd been badly shod, and we've got no idea what they did to her. Basically it took 8 months before blacksmith would consider shoeing her, we did lots of desensitising by holding her close to other horses being shod and she was trimmed regularly. She still doesn't like even being led past other farriers, but is ok with mine.
Her problem is with hammering and to begin with she was very very stressed by it, to the point where we were unsure we'd manage to get shoes on her. It didn't happen everytime, but farrier agreed that something he'd done had triggered something in her mind. After a few 'good' sessions her response decreased, and now as long as she has a haynet, and plenty of reassurance she barely notices the hammering.

Good luck with Oliver, and hope Hannah is ok after her fall x
 
I can't offer an advice but I really hope you manage to get him sorted. As you (and many others) say it may be something physical but certainly from what you describe it could equally be emotional.
We have a issue with Sidney in so far as if one of us falls off (usually our fault) when we go back to the stable he stands at the back and shakes. This is a 10 year old 17.2 horse trembling - its awful to see. We suspect he's had the living daylights beaten out of him by someone for ditching them in the past. With a lot of time and patience he's getting better as he's learning the only thing we hold responsible for unplanned exits is ourselves! Its awful to think the emotional damage someone has done to him and only serves to highlight they are sensitive to memories of bad situations.
 
Oh dear, not much fun for the kid or the pony.

This is one of those "impossible to advise when you can't see it" things but I have to second FeuFolet's point about a consistent routine for a young horse. I find this is actually the point that gets most people into trouble when they buy a green horse - it's not that the work is so complicated or difficult, it's just that things like routine and small steps are ESSENTIAL not just a good idea. 11 days is a long time - I would almost expect a problem at that point and not just because of freshness. Older horses are just more reslitient and consistent in themselves, younger ones need to get that from their people.

It might be a good idea if you could get someone a little more experienced to ride him a bit. I know that's tough on a kid but it might be important for the pony. It also might be a way to get him a little more work and reinforce his "respect the little rider" attitude. I'm sure Hannah is hanging in there but you are right to be concerned with her safety and confidence.

Is there anyone else around who could assess the situation? Perhaps someone who specialises in ponies and young riders?
 
Hey there Patches. Sorry to hear you've had a little bit of a set-back - I hope it hasn't put Hannah off riding Oliver.

Anyway, the first thought going through my mind is not that the pony has any long lasting effects from said rider, but more a case of being off work for a number of days.

Amymay's suggestion of bot flies is a good one and this would make perfect sense, along with the fact that pony has had a holiday.

Who knows why he actually did what he did, but I'd place a heavy wager that the previous instructor had nothing to do with him reacting in this manner.

I'd lunge him before riding, for the next few days; alternatively can you have a small adult ride him briefly, going through all the gaits before putting Hannah back on board?

I'd try not to worry about this; childrens ponies, particularly if they are young, can take you by surprise and there are often set-backs along the way.....don't lose faith in him
cool.gif
.
 
Hi
Only read your OP so in reply to that, one of my horses was very head shy when I got him and would bolt off if I changed my whip to the other hand when changing the rein. He could see the whip out of the corner of his eye and would just bolt in terror. He's absolutely fine now but it did take a lot of time and patience to win back his trust. Sounds like Oliver had a nasty experience being hit across the head with the reins and whip and then when Hannah changed the rein across the diagonal, if she changed her whip he could have seen it out of the corner of his eye and thought he was going to be hit and then on instinct bolted. Poor Hannah, I hope she's ok but it does sound like he was genuinely terrified. I think find another instructor and just spend a lot of time building up his trust and confidence again and Hannah will always have to be aware of changing her whip into the other hand and making sudden movements with her reins. I wouldn't call it PTSD but he will always remember that he had this bad experience, my horse still has the occasional flashback even though I have him for 5 years.
 
Her new instructor is coming next week.

I've not had a holiday in 8 years. Now you've made me feel bad for going away for a few days.

He's had two weeks off in the past before when Hannah was ill. I just let him chill. He didn't seem at all fresh and infact Hannah took a little video of him on my phone....he was walking with his head almost hitting the floor as though he'd be sedated almost. She's gotten on him when he has genuinely been on his toes and he's never reacted in this way.

My horses and ponies all have a very set routine generally speaking. This was an unusual set of circumstances because we chose to take a pretty much one off family holiday for 5 days.
 
[ QUOTE ]
How scary. Poor Hanah, and poor Oli.

Firstly, I always think it takes a good few months for a horse or pony to settle into a new home. certainally, we've seen more of the 'real' pony recently in ours, we've had him since January. In that time he has done allsorts, even to the point of me wondering if we should just sell him as a companion
frown.gif
. But again, the more work he does, the more time he has, the better he is.

I would certainally get his back and teeth done, saddle re checked etc. Have Hannah ride minus a whip. He's young and foward going... she diesnt need one for basic schooling.
Try and do more hacking. For the time being do this on the LR. Youngsters can turn very sour if their schooling outweighs their hacking.
It does sound like this insructor may have caused him issues. She may not have done, but it's worth keeping in mind when he's being worked, just in case.

If it were me I would lunge him in walk daily, and take him back to long reining too. If a lunge whip terrifies him, don't push it. Use a schooling whip to start with, just to de sensitise him (Ours was terrified of whips, and can now be lunged with one and ridden with a short crop). Once he's used to being lunged and does so happily, lunge him with Hannah on board, to build both their confidences.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you're saying and it makes sense Katy, but he is terrified of the lunge line full stop. Long lines would really freak him out and a whip is a whip....he doesn't like them full stop now.

How frequently should I have his saddle/back/teeth done as they've all been done in the last 6 weeks and in the case of his back it was 3 weeks ago today.
 
quote - "he was walking with his head almost hitting the floor as though he'd been sedated almost."

My horse comes in from the field like this sometimes when he is really not feeling himself. He suffered badly with pharyngeal problems last year from which he finally recovered this January. This has left him with a legacy of occasional headshaking and bouts of walking/standing with his head on the floor, suggesting some kind of irritation.

If this "head on the floor" isn't usual for Oliver then to me it suggests some kind of discomfort in his mouth/throat etc. which would probably be worth getting checked out.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I would definately get your EDT out to have a little look. Has he got any woolf teeth?

The other thing that springs to mind is No. 1 was there a Bot fly in the field - I have seen horses just go loopy when they're around, No. 2 he was being a little bugger, or No. 3 yes, he was upset after the battering he got from the instructor.

No advice - just ideas for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's had his wolf teeth removed but it is a possibility that he has new teeth coming through, being 5 I guess.

I'll call the EDT and see when he's next in the area. Others have advised having back/saddle done but back was only done on the 2nd August and saddle is only a few weeks old too and was fitted to him professionally. Surely people wouldn't all think I should go down the full saddle/teeth/back route so close to him having all three done?
crazy.gif



Bot flies could indeed be a possibility I guess. Haven't seen any this year and none of the horses have any eggs on them as I check daily. Patches hates Bots though. I'm pretty sure she'd have acted up if a bot fly was about....wouldn't she?

Gah...it's so hard to know what to do. Lungeing him is really not working. I have again tried today and he's having none of it.
 
Oh sorry, I meant to say that is Oliver in Donkey-mode. He's always like that. The odd occasion he's been on his toes and fresh he's been different. What I was trying to get across is that he was as calm and placid as he always is.

When I took him to an inhand show he looked doped in the class. He's so chilled out he's almost horizontal.
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Her new instructor is coming next week.

I've not had a holiday in 8 years. Now you've made me feel bad for going away for a few days.

He's had two weeks off in the past before when Hannah was ill. I just let him chill. He didn't seem at all fresh and infact Hannah took a little video of him on my phone....he was walking with his head almost hitting the floor as though he'd be sedated almost. She's gotten on him when he has genuinely been on his toes and he's never reacted in this way.

My horses and ponies all have a very set routine generally speaking. This was an unusual set of circumstances because we chose to take a pretty much one off family holiday for 5 days.

[/ QUOTE ]


Awww patches it is not to make you feel bad hon, just saying that horses need consistent work, especially young ones, and if you go away/he has to have time off again, maybe it is best to lunge him for a couple of days prior to your little one getting on x
 
[ QUOTE ]

Hi Patches

I think this paragraph shows part of the problem, espeially the "not been ridden for 11 days"

Horses, especially young ones, need a routine - work, consistently in a calm manner. It is how they learn and how you put the basics in place. By consistently I mean if you dont want to ride every day, dont, alternate riding with lungeing - if you lunged every other day, he would soon get used to the line/whip. It is how horses learn!

Please dont let him frighten you, the horse sounds terrified, just maybe try and get him into a routine, even if it was 20 mins work per day. Young horses also try you out - like with the rolling thing, they see how much they can get away with.

ETS And dont let that instructor near him!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks FF for your reply.

Don't worry, we've not been back to that instructor since. Hannah now has a PC instructor but she can only come once a week really as she lives a way off from us. Can't get in with her until next week.

Oliver has been lunged by me in the past very successfully. It was just yesterday and this morning that he was having none of it.

I am a big believer in routines as well and all of mine generally have good routines. The 11 days off was a result of a once in 8 years family holiday and then Hannah having to spend time with her dad on our return. He's had several days off before and it's never been an issue, so I didn't think there would be a problem last night either.

Of course, I'm not put off him and I don't want to sell him etc. I just want to help him and Hannah work through this testing period properly.
 
poor oliver and hannah (she is a brave thing!!)

It sounds like a combination of a bad nasty experiance and him being young.

We have 'picked up and put down' youngsters before due to circumstance and I have to say in my experiance its not led to any terrible behaviour.

To me it sounds like a panic reaction coupled with being young. Generally we found when youngsters were testing us it was a nap/buck type thing (or like him rolling!) rather than running off then shaking.
also if hannah is trying to stop him when hes belting off it's likely her hands are coming up a little and that might worry him even more
thus he is worrying himself even more vertime he does it.

if it was me i would perserve with trying to lunge and getting someone with good 'stickability' and balance to put him through his paces.

hopefully a little time and work etc and he'll be fine
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top