Can I legally move my horse if I owe money?

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Fiery_Pheonix

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I am currently on a yard where the bill is sky high due to being charged for hay that the farmer says the horses are getting when I know they are not, but i cannot prove they are not. However the figure only comes from words, I have asked for weeks for a written bill and have still not received one! I intend on paying the bill however I would like to move my horse so the bill does not increase and was wondering if I am legally allowed to do this? The yard owner says he is keeping the horses until payment is made as if it is not made he will sell them for meat, however it does not say in the contract that they belong to him if payment is not made, surely this is illegal? Any advice?
 
I would just work out your own invoice, hand it over with the money and do a midnight fled. If his not forthcoming with a written invoice, there is not a lot more you can do.
 
He can try to stop you of he catches you moving but if he physically puts his hands on you its assault. As youve said you are going to pay, its not your fault he cant get an invoice to you when youve been asking for one, id certainly not be prepared to stay anywhere i didnt want to because the yo cant get their finger out to make you up an invoice! Pay what you think you owe and leave
 
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We had to do a moonlight flit for other reasons , literally turned up with horse box pulled said horse out of field and off we went. No issue afterwards. Just make sure you get everything away..go out for a hack and dont come back etc! Offer to pay something and dont get into tellling them you are moving.
 
If there's no written contract between you then you're not legally tied to stay there. I would move the horse, regardless as to whether he is there or not (maybe bring along a few tough-looking male friends :P) and move your horse, and tell him to send you an invoice with what you are owed when he can actually be bothered
 
He has aboslutely no legal claim on your horse. For the sake of a bit of peace I would reccommend a mid night flit - but if you're feeling brave do it during the day. He cannot lay hands on you or behave in a manner which causes you fear. Have your passports, the contract etc with you as, if you call the police, you may have to establish ownership. But otherwise - his only claim to the money is through the small claims courts.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.
 
I never understand why livery owners would want to keep someone on their yard who hasn't paid. Get them off ASAP so the bill doesn't run up anymore and then small claims court. The longer they keep it the more they will owe, limit your losses. Just because the horse isn't there any more doesn't mean the owner doesn't owe you any money. If you stayed in a hotel and left without paying would you still owe the money?

OP hope you sort your problem out and I too would move my horse if I couldn't get a sensible answer out of them and sort the payment out once they give you a bill.
 
I don't personally think you should do a runner without him knowing unless your new yard is a fair way away.............................. say he spots you out on a hack or something and works out where you are............................... I'm not saying he'd do anything but that's how things start getting ugly.
 
stargirl88 said:
I don't personally think you should do a runner without him knowing unless your new yard is a fair way away.............................. say he spots you out on a hack or something and works out where you are............................... I'm not saying he'd do anything but that's how things start getting ugly.
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I totally agree! Some people can be pretty awkward and totally b*tchy. Ive seen some males that like to mentally bully over horses. Its no pretty, and to be quite honest, its sad.

Plus, if you move during the day, if he says anything to you, or touches you or throws a hamster at you and shouts 'go pikichu' or anything else, you may have witnesses, which would help should anything have to go to the police. Hope everything works out for you!!
 
I'm with miss bean - money thru door with your own invoice signed and dated - and keep a copy! - then get your stuff and go. His fault for not invoicing or using a contract. Threatening with the meatman
 
no he can't stop you leaving and no he can't keep your horses in lieu of payment unless it is written in your contract. he's just trying to be a bully!! if he threatens the meatman again ask him if he'd like a copy of your invoice to go to the taxman;) :D
 
Presumably its in your contract that you need to give notice, so even if you do a flit your bill will still go up. Also is this the reputation you want? as well as potential legal action against you I would expect other livery owners to be concerned to take someone on who has done flits before.
 
Can you not work out what you think you owe as he is not giving you an invoice, write it out clearly showing how you have worked it out, and pay him giving him your own invoice/receipt with working out. You will need to include a week's/month's notice depending on how often you pay him.
I agree though with the people who have said to get out of there - if anyone had even suggested once to sell my horse for meat, you wouldn't see me for dust. Why should you stay somewhere you feel threatened? Make sure that you leave payment by cheque not cash though so that you can prove you have paid if it comes to that and keep a copy of the invoice you are leaving him. Also if you could ask another livery to be there when you pay him as a witness that would also be helpful. Then take your horse and involve the police if necessary.
 
He has no legal claim to your horse. I would leave, not necessarily a midnight flit, but would leave and not make anyone aware you were leaving until everything has been packed away, then resolve the issue of money later. You aren't refusing to pay, he is not giving you any real option to pay, so of he was to pursue this legally he would be laughed at! Insofar as to where you stand legally with anywhere that provides a service (as is my understanding anyway, definitely applies to restaurants/hairdressers etc) you don't have to pay if you do not feel you have been provided with the service you were promised PROVIDING you leave your name and address so the service provider can follow this up. In your case, the YO can provide you with an invoice, which presumably you would pay, or take you through the small claims. I imagine if you are happy to pay upon presentation of an invoice then SCC would be very unlikely!
I will try and find out more about the "leaving name and address" thing for you.
 
If your genuinely expecting trouble/being threatened when you leave then as others have said get your paperwork together e.g an invoice as you must know the amount you owe? Write a cheque, take your passport with you go to the yard take your documents with you tell him your going. Tell him that you don't want any trouble and will call the police if it makes it difficult. If he then gets nasty towards you ring the police say you are being harassed and are having difficulty removing your horse and belongings and need assistance. I wouldn't go on your own take a couple of people as others have said preferably big blokes! Hopefully that will be enough to put him back in his box so to speak! When it comes down to it bullies are actually v weak they have to hide it by threatening people, etc. I wouldn't just pack up and leave as you may feel your constantly looking over your shoulder which has to be the worst feeling when your trying to enjoy your horse. Let us know what you decide to do and good luck
 
MissChaos said:
I'm with miss bean - money thru door with your own invoice signed and dated - and keep a copy! - then get your stuff and go. His fault for not invoicing or using a contract. Threatening with the meatman
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This ^^^ Pay what you feel is owed for the hay showing your invoice and keep a copy. Pay what ever notice you are supposed to serve and get up and go. I left my last yard quick not for anything dodgy just had to move quickly i paid them for the weeks notice i was supposed to give even though i wasn't there. I like to make sure i am straight with every one. Don't want a bad rep.
 
Yes you can legally move. However ensure you have the passport (I know many yards now hold them) pick a local show date and say you are going to the show (i.e you need your tack, grooming stuff, passport etc). Just don't come back.

However you really do need to sort out the bill or he is quite entitled to take you to small claims court. Be aware he can also contact where you move to next and let them know that you do not keep up with payments (irrespective of what has actually happened with the bill). When you set up the next place be honest about what is going on - you don't want to get kicked off and struggle to find somewhere later.
 
The short answer is yes.

If I was in your shoes I would do the following...

Find a new yard that is willing to take on at short notice
Work out exactly what is owed to date and the cost of the notice period
Pack all my equipment away, apart from tack if riding to new location
Take everything to new location and return to the yard with a friend or two (in transport or their vehicle so you do not have to return)
Post or hand in written notice and final payment with invoice (in front of witness (keeping copies))
Take horse to new yard
Keep all paperwork for at least a year in case of reprisals!
 
I would work out your invoice and put it with a letter stating that in the absence of a frequently requested invoice you are enclosing a cheque in "full and final settlement" of your outstanding rent/livery. Keep copies of your invoice and letter. Give them to him with a friend or two as witnesses.

If he cashes the cheque he is accepting your invoice as the full and final amount. If he doesn't cash the cheque but tries to claim more through Small Claims Court, he will have to produce copies of his invoices as proof of the debt and also proof that he actually invoiced you.

He cannot keep your horse, go for a hack and don't return!
 
amymay said:
Actually, I think he probably can. It's referred to as taking a lien.

I believe you have to apply to Court with actual proof of debt to obtain a lien over someone's property, unless the owner of the property has given their consent to the property being sold to settle any debt.
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