Can someone please explain showing/show judges to me!

[tobiano1984]

As mentioned in previous posts, I'm new to showing and am really enjoying it with my 5 yo coloured gelding. However I really have no clue what judges look for so if someone could explain it I'd be grateful!!

We were at a local unaff show this weekend, quite a big one, and my friends and I were competing and watching plenty of classes - but when we tried to put the horses in order, it was always completely different to who got pulled in by the judge!
I also have now done 2 different inhand coloured classes, and won the first one when the judge said she couldn't fault his confirmation, but in the second one we came 3rd and the judge said he was let down by the trot up.
I've also done 3 ridden classes now - the first coloured one we came 6th and I was happy with that as I hadn't actually prepared an individual show and the people who beat us were very professional and polished. At this weekend's show we won ridden novice which surprised me as we were against some lovely hack and hunter types, although most combinations apart from us had bucks/wrong leads in their show. In the ridden coloured we were 3rd, beaten by 2 very dull old horses who although behaved very well weren't working in an outline in their shows, and weren't particularly full of life.

So tell me - are there any hard and fast rules for judging unaffiliated showing? or is it really personal preference? In inhand is it confirmation, behaviour, movement or what? And in ridden is behaviour key?

Any advice/pointers much appreciated! I'm really bitten by the showing bug so feel I should make an effort to understand it more!

 

[DIESELSUPERSTAR]

I am new to it as well! And have two coloured boys so compete in the coloured classes. I think as a rule they look for confirmation, manners, how well they school, markings etc. my new boy has done very well and came 2nd in a county show, however the next week he was placed 4th in a small show, the judge had just judged a large number of shp classes and all the horses placed above me were of this type. Iv heard people have a book of judges so they can decide whether to do a show, I wouldn't rush out again to be judged by the shp judge as he clearly wasn't a fan of the hairy types. Mostly it's personal preference, especially with small shows. However in the county show i had a lot of respect for the judge as he placed the horses purely on which was best and not which type he preferred as the line up was totally different all the way down, going from short to tall to clipped to plaited to hairy and back again, whereas at a lot of shows you will find all the hairys at one end of the lineup and all the trimmed ones at the other. Hope that makes sense, I always find typing on a phone difficult!!

 

[tobiano1984]

It must be very hard to judge, especially in coloured classes where there can be so many different 'types', whereas other classes (SHP etc) are all of one type. It must also be very personal, in the class we won on Sunday the judge said she loved my horse's 'spark' whereas the next class was with a different judge, and she said she would have placed him higher if he'd been a bit calmer - admittedly by that time he'd become rather bored and tried to lie down in the line-up, kept trying to kick my feet with his back legs and get hold of the curb rein! Still a bit of a toddler.

 

[WelshD]

Its so down to the individual though some ponies get consistently well placed around the country enough for me to respect that the judges do know what quality is!

As you say with coloured horses the judge needs to assess the way of going, conformation etc but also needs to be able to detect a definite type too so if your horse isnt heavy ebough to be a traditional they need to fit in to the hunter, riding horse etc brackets and of course be turned out accordingly

Many show people have a little book in which they record judges, dates of shows and what they gleaned from the experience so things like your comment about 'spark' above, there is only a certain number of judges so if you show routinely you will come across the same ones and so you can adjust your performance, your horse's energy levels accordingly or simply not choose to attend if you know the judge doesnt like your horse

Things that seem consistent in all judges is that they like to see a nice active walk in a horse, they dont like someone crowding another exhibit, they like good manners from the handler if not the horse too! they like to see a horse trotted straight back at them on the run up rather than having to traipse across the ring to see if your horse is moving straight, they like clean and tidy turnout and to some extent the correct turnout (some are more lenient than others)

 

[Bobbly]

Its so down to the individual though some ponies get consistently well placed around the country enough for me to respect that the judges do know what quality is!

As you say with coloured horses the judge needs to assess the way of going, conformation etc but also needs to be able to detect a definite type too so if your horse isnt heavy ebough to be a traditional they need to fit in to the hunter, riding horse etc brackets and of course be turned out accordingly

Many show people have a little book in which they record judges, dates of shows and what they gleaned from the experience so things like your comment about 'spark' above, there is only a certain number of judges so if you show routinely you will come across the same ones and so you can adjust your performance, your horse's energy levels accordingly or simply not choose to attend if you know the judge doesnt like your horse

Things that seem consistent in all judges is that they like to see a nice active walk in a horse, they dont like someone crowding another exhibit, they like good manners from the handler if not the horse too! they like to see a horse trotted straight back at them on the run up rather than having to traipse across the ring to see if your horse is moving straight, they like clean and tidy turnout and to some extent the correct turnout (some are more lenient than others)

All of the above, coloured judging is not easy in that generally there are so many different types and they can all appear in one class and quality and placement of colour can have a huge effect too so I also try to look at them as if they were bay, would I still like that horse if it were a solid colour for example. Then to go on and decide if it is a good example of it's type etc. Judges are only human and obviously some have preferences for different types i.e, a traditional cob with the correct shape of sloping bottom may not appeal to some compared to say a hunter type. It's a minefield to sort them sometimes!

 

[cbmcts]

Any time I've judged I always have a little groan if I'm down for the coloured class - it's probably the hardest ridden class to judge properly and fairly.They're usually huge classes too so if I'm allowed to I'll split the class into over/under 14.2hh.

What I do for a ridden class is split the marks into 4 groups of 10 - conformation, movement, ind show and manners. An inhand class will be marked similarly but things like evenness of markings of have a bit more influence and the individual show a bit less. At local level I don't take any notice of tack or turnout until I have short listed the last 6 or 8, then if it's very close I'll start marking that too.

It's the only way I can be fairly judging (IME) such a diverse type of horse - I've judged everything from 10.2h veterans, 7/8th TB, proper, full feathered vanners to HW hogged and trimmed cobs in the same class so you can't really compare them to a breed standard or type as you would other classes. I treat it as a 'performance' class by marking and it means that everybody has a chance and I don't get too distracted by my preference for the big cobs

Remember though, that a judge at a local/RC show is probably no more qualified than the man in the street and is usually a volunteer so you won't get the same standards that you would get at a affiliated show - however local shows are a lot cheaper to enter and at worst the only society you'll have to pay to join is the local RC! CHAPS, NPS and the like are usually expensive to join and register your horse and that's before you take into account the distances you'll need to travel to compete at their shows...

 

[Cortez]

If you're going to get involved with showing I recommend that you do some in-depth research. Despite what people say, judges are trained and certified; there is a "standard" for all classes, and whilst there is always going to be a subjective element most judges do try to judge what they see on the day. The reason professionals win is because.....they are professional about it! In other words they REALLY know the requirements, the tricks of the trade, and what the judges are looking for. Many, many amateurs are simply in the wrong class or don't understand the requirements. Go out there, look at loads of classes, READ the standard, and ask questions. Good luck, and enjoy!

 

[Madam Min]

I'm reading this thread with interest as on Sunday I'm taking my mare to a hack class and best turned out, I have done little bit of research having only done 3 ridden showing classes before! Just gonna give it a whirl and hopefully have fun! Its new to us as we usually do dressage or jumping! Eeeeeek!

 

[Morgan123]

I've always heard so many people put off showing because of what a black art it is to get placed, and I've always thought its pretty hard on the judges too. I don't understand why there isn't more rigour to it in terms of - why not give a feedback sheet, a little like in dressage, with a basic score out of ten for various things (conformation, movement etc) and a general comment? It wouldn't be MUCH more effort and would really clear the whole thing up and facilitate everyone's experience I think. I'd be much more likely to enter showing classes run like that.

I'd be interested to hear what you think, cmbts, being a real judge!

 

[cornbrodolly]

Judges may be up to a 'standard' in Ireland, but really here anyone could have a go at local level, so it really is the luck of the draw.Often at local level its a local rider , who may not even show themselves! I ve seen livery stables owners roped in , hunt officials, local worthies. Having shown coloureds since 1987, I have had good bad and weird judging over the years.
A decent judge even in a mixed class would be judging each horse against the best of its type. However, personal prefernce does come into it , and a native judge will choose the hairies, a hunter lover will choose that type and so on. campaign for a season , gossip to everyone at the ringside and find out which judge likes what.
Take your horse to a regional CHAPS or BSPA show - there ll be classes for most types, and you ll get s better idea of how good your horse is against others of its type. I m personally against marks for scoring - there is plenty of debate aboutit in pony classes. It was tried for hunters at HOYS- **** hit the fan that day!

 

[DIESELSUPERSTAR]

I totally agree with all of the above, generally it's an opinion and in the coloured classes it is so broad that I wouldn't envy the judge!! My summer has seen a group of coloureds consistently at the top and we all arrived at the county show. the mare who has won every show of the season won my class as also won champion, I came 2nd and have never been so proud or pleased in my life! The mare was beautifully turned out, stood correct, trotted correctly and after speaking to the owner, found they were a stud who have shown for 10 years and ended up winning both champ and res champ in show. Totally deserved IMO

With regards to local shows and judges, in my area anyone can be asked to judge. It's only for the higher level shows where they have the proper judges. I expect they do have proper judges in local shows but on the whole most are not registered or anything which is where you tend to get the judge who goes by personal preference rather than the best horse for their type if that makes sense!

 

[Tiffany]

I used to judge at RC and agricultural level and to do that I did a probationary period with panel judges. At local level it's more difficult in some ways because people take their ponies/horses in quite a few classes and not all of them are the correct classes and you can only judge what's in front of you.

I used to have hunters in riding horse classes and vice versa and in my view they can't really be both so if they do well in one, they are unlikely to do so well in the other.
If I thought a horse was in wrong class I always took the time to talk to handler/rider to explain their position.

For coloured classes I looked at markings, conformation, movement and manners. The rider/handler also plays a part in showing the horse off to enhance it's good points. If I had two that were level criteria mentioned then yes it would come down to my personal preference.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

If you're going to get involved with showing I recommend that you do some in-depth research. Despite what people say, judges are trained and certified; there is a "standard" for all classes, and whilst there is always going to be a subjective element most judges do try to judge what they see on the day. The reason professionals win is because.....they are professional about it! In other words they REALLY know the requirements, the tricks of the trade, and what the judges are looking for. Many, many amateurs are simply in the wrong class or don't understand the requirements. Go out there, look at loads of classes, READ the standard, and ask questions. Good luck, and enjoy!

I'm afraid that is only true for classes which are affiliated to one of the showing/breed societies. The judges at local unaffiliated classes may have very little clue at all about what they are supposed to be judging. If you are lucky they will be local people who have done well at county/breed shows or run a RS or have some other expertise in the horse world. If you are really unlucky they will be the Show secretary's nextdoor neighbour, who has sat on a horse twice - and all sorts in between. RCs particularly struggle to get knowledgeable judges.
I have heard many judges say that they place the horses they would like to own, which seems like as good a criterion as any.
I certainly agree that research is good, watching classes that you haven't entered is always useful.

 

[showley1]

We are also new to showing and this season have shown at local level, and have found the judges do go on personal preference not the way of going, although not always true have found it to be mostly that way, my colored did a faultless show this weekend but was still placed behind a 16hh + warmblood type who went off on the wrong canter lead every time and was not in an outline, very disappointing for his 14 year old rider who had worked her socks off, also in another class (absolute beginner) 2 different riders were placed last because they were 14 and therefore were not beginners??? they have been back riding just 12 months owned their own last 8 months and was their third show that to me is an absolute beginner?? Have to say though all the discrepancies has not put them off,i think that's why i prefer eventing/ showjumping myself, after all that goes on your and your horses way of going.

 

[Cortez]

I'm afraid that is only true for classes which are affiliated to one of the showing/breed societies. The judges at local unaffiliated classes may have very little clue at all about what they are supposed to be judging. If you are lucky they will be local people who have done well at county/breed shows or run a RS or have some other expertise in the horse world. If you are really unlucky they will be the Show secretary's nextdoor neighbour, who has sat on a horse twice - and all sorts in between. RCs particularly struggle to get knowledgeable judges.
I have heard many judges say that they place the horses they would like to own, which seems like as good a criterion as any.
I certainly agree that research is good, watching classes that you haven't entered is always useful.

Really? I am shocked! Here (in Ireland) all judges have to be registered with the Irish Shows Association. I certainly wouldn't take an untrained/unreg judge seriously if I was showing.

 

[peaceandquiet1]

My daughters both show at local level. I think you have to look at your results over a season rather than focus on a particular class, to get an idea of how you are doing and what the judges want to see. Last week we showed and one judge was truly clueless, placing wrong leads, rough riding and worse above well schooled nicely presented ponies. Ours are veterans and a slightly dipped back was a reason to put our beautifully schooled and beautifully made pony near the end, however under another judge on the same day he was second beating many of the ponies in the first class. You get some duff judges but you also get some really good ones. I agree with the idea of keeping a book of notes, as I wouldn't pay to show under the first judge at the show last week again!

 

[Kallibear]

Ditto not envying the judge as at local level they have all sorts to contend with.

Classic example this weekend. We took a green RID to do hunter classes at a local show. He is very true to type MW Hunter.
He won his Inhand but came a deserved last in the Ridden. He was the only real hunter in the class. Rest were fat Riding Horses at best. But they all did a nice showpeice and the one who won did a flawless show and came first despite being overly lean and being more of a Hack. Ours bottled it (tiny ring, too many big horses and lots of scary ribbons round the edge) and did a poor show. The judge treated it like a performance class, the only thing you could do.

There was also First Ridden. The pony who won was stunning and immaculately polished and produced. But it looked as buzzy as hell and only foot perfect because the little rider was truely excellent (and also far too old really for such a class). I'm afraid I'd never put a novice child on it. The rest were fat, a bit lazy and nowhere near as 'polished' BUT I'd happily put a novice child on them and send them off by themselves. It depends what criteria the judge put as priority. Truely stunning, beautifully produced whizz kid or scruffy but super safe donkey?

And there's the fat question. Some of the 'hunters' were very very fat but highly placed. But how much can a judge penalise against fatness when the healthy weight ones so a poor show?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Really? I am shocked! Here (in Ireland) all judges have to be registered with the Irish Shows Association. I certainly wouldn't take an untrained/unreg judge seriously if I was showing.

Oh yes, absolutely true.
If you want to give your young horse/novice rider a few outings for experience with no pressure and little travelling, you just have to accept that the judging may be a bit bizarre. On the other hand, scores of children and hobby owners/riders thoroughly enjoy themselves with their horses and ponies in classes such as 'best mane and tail' and hopefully get some ringcraft experience in more conventional classes.

 

[Mithras]

Around here, a lot of shows now seem to be judged on performance only and nothing else, and usually that performance means quietness to ride, as opposed to movement. Hence why I prefer showing down south. I've seen cobs, and horses with major conformational faults, such as badly dipped backs or bad hocks, winning hunter classes. Since you are never, ever asked to gallop a hunter here, it probably doesn't matter.

I was always taught that trueness to type (in terms of which class it is) was most important, then conformation and performance about equally. I tend to look at the published addresses in the schedule to see if a show has gone to the trouble of getting non-local judges in, to see if its worthwhile.

 

[cbmcts]

I'm not a 'real' judge Morgan I'm just somebody who's had horses all my life and since I don't compete anymore I'm a safe option for local riding clubs.

Speaking as a local level judge, it is sometimes a thankless task - remember that I'll be getting up early on a Sunday to go and stand for up to 8, maybe 10 hours in a ring in all weathers for (if I'm lucky) a bottle of wine and a burger from the van. Over the past few years we've all really noticed a change in attitude from some competitors who can be appallingly rude if things don't go their way. In this area anyway, nobody and I mean nobody wants to judge a lead rein class, some of those mums are out of control and are very happy to have major tantrums both in and out of the ring if they don't win. There are 2 RCs that I won't judge for anymore because the behaviour that is allowed is unacceptable in my book and I know I'm not the only one who won't. In saying that, I do generally enjoy it otherwise I just wouldn't do it! People have to accept that at local level, judging may be a bit erratic - it's a shame but as I said, judges aren't paid and aren't that easy to find so the RCs have to go with what they can get. The only other options are to substantially raise the entry fees to pay for panel judges (again, not that easy to find) or not have showing shows...what would competitors prefer? I must admit I don't take any crap now, if you are stroppy with me in the line up I can and will ask you to leave the ring. I prize manners in a ridden horse above everything and will not put up a badly behaved horse above a well mannered, well ridden, willing horse even if their conformation is better. I also put horses down the line if they are obese or not quite sound. After all, these are meant to be 'ridden' horses so they have to be both mentally and physically capable of doing their job. I will always try and answer (not justify ) any questions as to my reasoning for picking the last 6/8 and am happy to do so but only if people are polite - they are welcome to disagree but not to abuse me verbally. Sometimes people have to accept that they can't always be a winner!

My showing background is that I showed natives particularly Welsh Cobs up to national level back in the day. I love judging natives because - if I say so myself - I know a fair bit about them. The same with youngstock. At a push I can competently judge say hunters or Arabs but I do struggle with my very strong preferences for a nice HW hunter or a Crabbet Arab - I don't really have the level of experience that will tell me why that very nice LW is better than than the also very nice HW, Same with an Egyptian Arab against a sturdier but less 'pretty' Crabbet or Polish. IMHO to judge well you need to know WHY you prefer a certain type and whether your less favoured type is a good example of it's breeding. It's a lot easier to do if you're judging at a larger show where there are enough classes to allow breeds and types to be shown against the same 'types' ie separate classes for the hunter weights or each native breed having it's own class. Sadly, that's not possible for many small shows due to the space and manpower that would be required.

Finally, just a plea to be a bit understanding at your local show - it's a strong possibility that your judge has no training and is in the middle of a long day and that they are judging horses that they have little or no practical experience in...until I've seen the schedule I often have no idea what ring I'll be given and often that can change on the day so my research may be useless!

 

[babymare]

Being on a RC commitee and understanding how hard it is to get good judges (ideally from out the area) i agree with all cbmcts says

 

[BethanT]

This is actually the reason why showing is my least favourite discipline, because it can be awfully biased. I attended our local peninsula show at the end of august riding my friends 24 years old JA pony and he only came 3rd in both in hand and ridden veteran, beaten by a 16 year old(1st) and and dull old looking 22 year old that wasnt quite right behind. Addimittedly he didnt do an amazing ridden performance and the horse that won that deserved it, but again horse that came 2nd was only 16 or 17. Now correct me if im wrong but I though this was a bit unfair (the pony I was riding is still competing to 3ft, albeit not often, looks amazing, full of life and behaves and moves like a 10 year old still, not to mention he had a stifle op 1.5 years ago and is now sound as ever (all of which I told the judge)).

I also rode another friends horse in a coloured class as he was a youngster, and the judge did tell us what she was expecting from us and what she was looking for, which was manners, conformation, markings and how well and forward the horse was, which I think it very good as it put every one on an level playing field.

Give me showjumping any day!!