Can you teach a horse to move bigger???

_jetset_

_jetset_

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I had a really good lesson with Spencer this morning on Grace and she is definitely starting to let go and move looser and more freely, but what he did comment on is that she is not a big moving uphill horse that can gets the 7s and 8s easily in tests. Both she and I have to work on it to get it right... His example was a bigger moving more flashy horse would be looking at an 8 and if it makes a mistake can still achieve a 7. Whereas Grace can get a 7 and if it goes wrong we go down to a 6...

She is built quite evenly (in that she is not really downhill, but is not uphill in her shoulder either) however he did say that even when she is working lower now she is still up in her shoulder... goodness knows how we have achieved that
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So, this leads me to my question... can you teach a smaller moving horse to be more flamboyent and big moving? Or am I fighting a losing battle here???

Also a quick update on her feed too... in my lesson she felt as though she had bags more to offer me with regards to stamina and energy which I have not really felt before, so I do think the change in feed is helping us too. She is now on a full Stubbs scoop of TopSpec Super Conditioning Flakes (split between 2 feeds), a small amount of the D&H Stay Power (just weaning her off it slowly) and the TopSpec Balancer. I am hoping to add the Cool Condition Cubes once she has come off the mix and keep the flakes as a dressing for the extra umph!
 
Yes, you absolutely can! Liberty had a nice trot, but as he got stornger he could offer more and more, and learnt to turn on his "posh" trot when asked. William is starting to come round to the idea too and he is built down hill. Headley Britannia is another example of a small horse, who has been taught to move big, and she was taught that quite late on. It is quite interesting to watch GP horses warming up as well as in the test, they often show little movement until it's really required. A big trot and canter is not the easiest for collected work, do you remember Dream of Heidelberg? Very impressive in a straight line, struggled a lot with pirouettes and the like.
 
Totally agree with what tigers_eye says about Headley Britannia. She's quite a short coupled little mare with a naturally choppy trot so didn't get oustanding marks in her dressage for a long time, looking at her BE record. But once she got to a certain level, not only did her trot improve but the judges started to take into account the fact that she was not built for a big extended trot and also that more emphasis was placed on the other movements, collection and so on, so relatively her lack of 'flash paces' was not holding her back as much. Solution - rack Grace up the grades, Jetset!!
 
Thanks tigers_eye... the problem is she is not a small horse
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She is just touching 17.1hh and does have quite a big ground covering stride, but what she doesn't have is that springy off the floor trot that so many have naturally these days. I don't know if you saw the vid of her, but it is all very loose and swinging, just not very umphy
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I really don't think you need a 'big' trot to do well. You need correct paces and they improve all the time. Some 'big trot ' horses show lots of tension which is something you do not want. Pros may need a big trot but believe me these horses are not always easy.
Yes you can improve the trot but don't worry about it, Rafi has a lovely rhythm and the judges love that
 
Even a lot of the big flashy horses don't have naturally great paces especially the trot but the trot is the easiest pace to manipulate.

Carl Hester always talks a lot about using piaffe and passage to create a bigger floatier trot! At badminton last year eh did a demo with a new GP horse. Trotted it round normally and to be honest it lookde very plain, he then collected it and put it into a passagey trot and although still a working (but verging on collected) trot it had miles more presence etc. It basically looked like a different horse.

So yes you can improve the trot and make it 'bigger' no matter the size of horse but to do so you need to be able to collect and engage the hindquarters to increase the flexion in the hock and increase the time for the moment of suspension for the diagonal pairs during the stride.
 
I have to say my cob although having a very uphill nice movement a canter that is fantastic but being welsh he was just lacking in walk and trot - he is now on production at a show yard all they do is hack him out (they live in a valley) so he gets lots and lots of hill work. As a result of this his back end is getting stronger and stronger much more than schooling ever has done. He has now got a much bigger walk and his trot is much more elevated - he even stands squarer behind as his inner thigh muscles develop.
I would never have thought that hacking would improve him more than proper schooling

Timescales - he has been on production for 6 weeks now and the change is unbelievable
 
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I really don't think you need a 'big' trot to do well. You need correct paces and they improve all the time. Some 'big trot ' horses show lots of tension which is something you do not want. Pros may need a big trot but believe me these horses are not always easy.
Yes you can improve the trot but don't worry about it, Rafi has a lovely rhythm and the judges love that

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You see this is what I was thinking... if they are correct then surely they will still achieve the 8s in the tests. But when Spencer said that she is a 6.5 mark horse and if something goes well she would achieve a 7 but if something was a bit of an issue it would be a 6 it got me thinking. Is there anyway of changing that 6.5 for something more impressive through work, or is it just something I am always going to be fighting against?
 
For instant big trot you just need an auction style arena, and a few zealous spectators et voila
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However, more practically, you can change a 6.5 easily, through work, but it all depends on what you want to do. To be at the point where a naturally 6.5 horse is consistently trotting for an 8 I would expect that horse to be working Ad Med. Due to age/balance/strength and the degree of collection required to ask for that extra controlled power.
Like someone else said - crack on up the grades.
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Also THE carthorse is totally correct, rhythm is SO much more important - particularly at the lower levels, this is why some bigger flashy warmbloods are regularly trumped. To win your prelims on a nice average horse you need to do be consistent 7's no mistakes. TBH The mistake I have made myself in the past is riding for a flamboyant mark, getting it, then dropping marks in the next movement because we couldn't maintain the consistency.
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. Likewise I regularly ride an advanced horse that has probably never had an 8 at advanced level but got 70% at a Premier League show (PSG).
 
You can improve all paces, and make them more expressive.
Grace sounds like Winston, he will NEVER have a WB trot, but he tries hard and because he keeps a nice rhythm scores 7's for his pace, sometimes 8s for his collections. He wont do an impressive medium EVER but the harder work ie collection, halfpasses and simple changes he scores well at.
He is my diesel horse, he tries hard even tho hes not expressive. He does what I want and Im happy but he wont be Snoopy.

Sell her if shes not achieving what you want? Id sell Winston if he didnt, but he does so Im happy to keep plugging on and just improving my accuracy.
 
You can add expression to the pace by combining some passage-like steps and increasing the activity of the trot. It's all about upping the impulsion
 
Thanks for the comments so far...

The big issue is that I don't think she is ready to move up the grades yet. She is certainly not strong or balanced enough to be doing any elementaries, although she did get 68% (with 2 marks removed for stupid jockey leaving neck strap on) in the Novice she did recently so she is ready for Novice again. However, she is also on the limit of Prelim points, so I did want to try to get her qualified for the summers as it is something I always dreamed of doing on her before she injured herself in Nov 2007.

If you go to THIS video and whizz to 38 seconds you will see her natural trot under saddle.

Before her injury she had a very nice start to her medium trot, but unfortunately, with circumstances being what they were, I never really had the chance to work on it
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However, I have tentitively asked for some strides recently and she does have quite a decent start of a medium, although again, the strength is still an issue in my opinion and she needs a lot more muscle before she will truly establish a medium trot.

I don't really want to sell her because we are just getting back to where we were before she injured the ligament and I truly do adore her (and in reality, who in their right mind would buy a horse who had colic surgery and PSD surgery on their portfolio
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) and some small bit of me still thinks she could be a really super horse if we can get it all together.

It is just what Spencer said today, it has rattled my fragile confidence in her a bit...
 
Remember that she has to use the muscles in order to build them up- she's only going to strengthen by working on her weaker areas and doing the slightly more advanced work.
40minutes of working trot ina 'nice' outline isnt going to improve your mediums and it isnt going to magically make her move bigger
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What would you suggest Bossanova???

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Just start to vary things a bit more- she's ready to build up now you've done a nice long, slow rehabilitation. So ask for some active, collected steps- tickle her with the whip, give her a little kick- then move her forward, then back, then medium etc All just to start adding to what she's got already. You dont have to go crazy, you just have to shake it up a little- show her there's progression beyond your comfort zone
 
Well then its pretty clear what you have to do, isnt it?

I know my horse wont ever have expressive paces, he never had any before I bought him. I work with what Ive got, and he is becoming much stronger.

We play around at Elems we do better because he is good at lateral work, so leg yield, collective trot/canter, counter canter, rein back and simple changes score 7's sometimes 8s but I drop to 5's/6's with Medium trot and sometimes if hes being a complete snoozy monster.

Halfsteps have helped also, getting him real cross gives him more expression too
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Personally Id just get on with it and keep plugging away. Ride what youve got and just keep on improving it.
 
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I really don't think you need a 'big' trot to do well. You need correct paces and they improve all the time. Some 'big trot ' horses show lots of tension which is something you do not want. Pros may need a big trot but believe me these horses are not always easy.
Yes you can improve the trot but don't worry about it, Rafi has a lovely rhythm and the judges love that

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i utterly agree with this , my IDx consistently scored 7's for paces up to elementary level , not particularly expressive , could have more engagement but what we had worked to achieve was great rhythm from essentially correct paces

by contrast my fairly big moving WB with a much greater degree of natural cadence is much more difficult , yes he's got the potential to be at least an 8 based on his natural attributes but harnessing them is a whole different game....result is that he regularly gets poor marks for his paces atm , i think any judge worth their salt see's past the flashy paces to assess the various elements that make up the mark

so having been on both sides i would say not to imagine that you are at a disadvantage having a horse with pretty 'ordinary' paces , you just have a different canvas to work with to those who have a horse with 'big' paces , & belive me atm i'm tempted to choose the ordinary , never managed to get a 5 for his paces
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Thank you again for the advice and comments... Sorry I cannot reply to each one but having to do this while typing out quotes in secret
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You're lucky you are not getting the odd 'Kingspan' or 'Decra' thrown in
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I am guessing something like a passage type step or beginnings of piaffe (obviously travelling) would be beneficial to improve the trot, but when do you know they are strong enough and ready for something like this???

Bossanova... will start doing more of that although we have started adding more collection into her canter work and medium steps, but not really through the trot work.
 
I know... but it is just not possible where I am at the moment as we have a 60mph road to contend with (which is most definitely more than 60 mph
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), and there is no off road hacking in the area. Now the nights are getting lighter I am hoping to start boxing her up and taking her to some off road hacking, but as I only finish work between 6 and 7pm this is not always possible (plus Doris is off the road for a few weeks).

Mornings are too much of a rush as I get in work between 10.30 and 11am and have to do three stables, excercise Han too, make sure they all get out for an hour and then go home, have a shower and drive 30 mins to work.
 
Chris Bartle uses the "zone" exercise, where he asks the horse (whether in trot or canter) to stay in that pace you get in the last stride before a balanced downward transition - just for a few strides at first, whilst staying round and active - and then either push on forward out of it without losing the engagement or do a downward transition. Gradually builds them up and gets them used to starting to sit behind. Eventually you can ask for piaffe/passage and v collected canter steps, but obviously have to build up to it until they are strong. A bigger trot requires strength, balance, straightness and engagement and it will come with disciplined training and time.
 
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Well maybe once the summer is here, you will have more time to box her somewhere, it really would be beneficial, in more ways than one.
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And I really want to do it too... would be lovely taking her out somewhere but would need someone to come with me too to give her confidence
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There is only a few areas around here that are like this, and they are all a good 20 mins plus drive so I do really need it to be a light night so that I can have a good ride without it being pitch black by the time we are getting back to the box
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I can't wait for summer, more so this year than ever before!

The problem with weekends in these areas is that we have a lot of motorbikers who use the areas as meeting places... so you can see why I would rather go in the evenings when it is quieter.
 
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Chris Bartle uses the "zone" exercise, where he asks the horse (whether in trot or canter) to stay in that pace you get in the last stride before a balanced downward transition - just for a few strides at first, whilst staying round and active - and then either push on forward out of it without losing the engagement or do a downward transition. Gradually builds them up and gets them used to starting to sit behind. Eventually you can ask for piaffe/passage and v collected canter steps, but obviously have to build up to it until they are strong. A bigger trot requires strength, balance, straightness and engagement and it will come with disciplined training and time.

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Do you know, that makes a lot of sense to me... so I guess that is something I could start introducing now to help her strengthen up in small amounts without worrying about her being too weak to cope with it.
 
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Chris Bartle uses the "zone" exercise, where he asks the horse (whether in trot or canter) to stay in that pace you get in the last stride before a balanced downward transition - just for a few strides at first, whilst staying round and active - and then either push on forward out of it without losing the engagement or do a downward transition. Gradually builds them up and gets them used to starting to sit behind. Eventually you can ask for piaffe/passage and v collected canter steps, but obviously have to build up to it until they are strong. A bigger trot requires strength, balance, straightness and engagement and it will come with disciplined training and time.

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Would reiterate the importance of an excercise like this, most horses learn to anticipate transitions based on you, your balance, and movement etc, i love doing the above, both upwards and downwards and then also not actually completing the transition itself but moving back to a true trot or canter, i also use it whilst on the lunge and find it hugely beneficial for both balance, collection, impulsion etc

Remember in collection and creating bigger paces you must not allow the frame to alter too much, in that collection should not create tension and shortness of the neck, and extension should not allow the horse to become on the forehand and long with hocks out behind them.
 
Thank you machannah... I am hoping to have time to ride her tomorrow so will give this a go, keeping her outline the same, keeping her coming through from behind but slowing the pace right down. She has not really done anything like that (other than starting to work on the collection in the canter) so will be interesting to see what results we get. I have to be careful because she can come backwards at me, so need to make sure I keep her really forwards into the contact with her hocks underneath her rather than trailing behind.

I am glad I posted because people seem to think it is possible to improve the paces...
 
Yes you can definately improve the paces. I remember seeing Charlotte Dujardin's horse warming up and it looked really plain. Once she picked him up he was a completely different horse, you wouldnt believe the difference. My old instructor had a CBxTB who didnt really go anywhere but had a loose stride. Once he had built up the muscle he really transformed.

Grace is going to have to work harder than the super horses but there is no reason why she cant improve. Without meaning to sound horrible she is still a novice horse and wont move like an advanced horse with years of training. It will come though if you stick at it.
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You can improve the trot, definitely. Teaching baby piaffe (halfsteps) helps a lot. Or just asking for a bit more cadence and collection and using this to get the horse to step bigger. Basically, trots CAN be manufactured - if you get the horse to release the back and engage the hind end, a "normal" trot can become very impressive. Canter, on the other hand, is a different story. Horses that are blessed with a good canter (like Valegro, or BBs Snoopy) are born with it. It is very difficult to manufacture a canter - luckily, a smaller canter makes changes easier (most of the time!). Same with the walk - you can't manufacture a walk. But again, a big walk can be really tricky - I know all about this, Oskar has the biggest walk ever, but even at 8 he sometimes struggles with collected walk.
 
Thanks Halfstep (did wonder what your name meant...
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).

How did you start teaching Oskar the halfsteps of piaffe?

Her canter used to be her best pace, but since coming back into work I am finding it the hardest one to get together
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Perhaps that is a bit of me too because it was the canter I was most concerned about working her in following the injury. However, Spencer did an exercise with me today through the canter which made me realise just how much I have been holding her together. The exercise actually made her work harder than I was working, but I did need quite a lot of leg to keep the forwards movement with it.

She got an 8 last week for her free walk, so I don't think that is too bad although I sometimes find it hard to get her to relax through the free walk if something has caught her eye...
 
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