Can't believe I'm asking this

[Cinnamontoast]

I'm looking into how dogs change for the better with neutering.

Zak, now just over a year, has dog on dog aggression (sometimes), probably a lot to do with being on the lead because of hip dysplasia at a time when most puppies are socialising. He has also snapped at a (same) friend twice. He's fine with the other dogs in the house, very in their face, doesn't know when to stop, but no aggression. However, the frequency of meeting other dogs and the incidents of aggression are mounting.

He's at training class weekly, gets on ok with the other dogs, but they don't go off lead. He's fine with people who are in the house a lot, but I'm terrified at the idea of him biting someone. He will be wearing a muzzle outside from now on. Training will be ongoing.

So, will neutering stop his aggressiveness? Or is the behaviour ingrained?

 

[Naryafluffy]

My friend has just had his Ridgeback neutered, he's about 18mnths and was getting agressive towards other entire males (fine with the bitches and neutered males), only done 10 days ago and is still on leash walks but does appear to be better with other males that are being met on the walk. He never had any problems with people (although you did have to watch him around people with walking sticks as he had a tendancy to run away with them....stop laughing I was mortified) so afraid can't help with that.
Could just be personality, another ridgie owner that breeds them and has been for years had 1 male that again was very agressive, being neutered didn't have any effect on him, but I don't know how old he was when he was done, having met all her other dogs, can't even say it was a training/handling issue as none of the other dogs were like this.
What about a blood test to check testosterone levels?

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

I would have any dominant dogs balls off. Does he attack dogs and bitches? Is your friend male or female?

 

[jsr]

Might help, might not it all depends on the dog. If his temperment is because it's in his breeding then nothing will change that. Castration, training and good responsible handling are all together the only ways to deal with a dog showing agression and sorry to not sugar the pill but if he's attempted to bite a person twice then you have an agressive dog on your hands. I'd certainly say it's your first port of all call, coupled with an experienced trainer who is used to your breed.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Same female friend he snapped at. Once when she bent down to stroke him, once when she was just sat quietly on the sofa.

I do think he's aggressive and we need a behaviourist one to one.

I think neutering is the first step then go from there. It's dogs he goes for, loves a bitch at training.

Any advice/experience welcome. He's the first dog out of four that we've had aggression issues with, so I'm utterly gutted.

As for breeding, I really don't think so. We met dam and grand dam, both were gorgeous. We also have his littermate, who is totally unlike him.

 

[Spudlet]

As you know, my view is, if you're not going to breed, have 'em off. It should help to calm things down a little. It's not a magic bullet though, so your plan to consult a behaviourist is a good one IMO. If you can get yourself to near me, I can recommend one, so do PM me.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

I have one lurcher bitch who's terrified of some unfamiliar women and another lurcher bitch who can become dominant with some unfamiliar men. I know a pair of brothers (human) , similiar in stature, she hates one and is fine with the other. Both these lurchers came from crap beginnings and who knows their exact history. I know comparisons between human and animal behaviour is frowned upon, but I am not going to like everyone I meet, why should it be different for a dog? If he clearly dislikes this friend and is passive around people generally then I would keep the pair seperated when the need arises.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Just to add, I don't go around punching people i dislike.

 

[jsr]

Try not to worry. 2 out of my 6 were 'aggression' cases and yes it's not been easy but it's certainly no impossible to deal with, just commonsense, good handling and ALOT of patience!! He may just be pushing the boundries and seeing what he can get away with but it certainly won't hurt to get someone out to assess him and offer advise and I'm a chop 'em off at 6 months kind of girl so castration is always the first thing I would recommend. Could be he has something physical going on too so a quick vet check when you go in to discuss the op might be worth having also, it could be something really simple that's just making him a bit crabby.

 

[Spudlet]

Just to add, I don't go around punching people i dislike.

lol (ducks possible flying punch)

I see what you are saying with your earlier post B, but IMO it is important to try and get to the root of what is triggering the behaviour. It may be a question of managing the situation, but in order to do that you need to know what the situation actually is - is it pain-related, fear, resource-guarding, or any one of a whole number of other possible triggers? If you don't know that, how can you say whether or not the dog might suddenly take against someone else at random?

Also, even if it just a question of the dog disliking someone, they need to learn alternative ways to react other than biting if at all possible.

Hope you get sorted CT.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

lol (ducks possible flying punch)

I see what you are saying with your earlier post B, but IMO it is important to try and get to the root of what is triggering the behaviour. It may be a question of managing the situation, but in order to do that you need to know what the situation actually is - is it pain-related, fear, resource-guarding, or any one of a whole number of other possible triggers? If you don't know that, how can you say whether or not the dog might suddenly take against someone else at random?

Also, even if it just a question of the dog disliking someone, they need to learn alternative ways to react other than biting if at all possible.

Hope you get sorted CT.

Very valid points. Damn, I missed

 

[Cinnamontoast]

As you know, my view is, if you're not going to breed, have 'em off. It should help to calm things down a little. It's not a magic bullet though, so your plan to consult a behaviourist is a good one IMO. If you can get yourself to near me, I can recommend one, so do PM me.

Will do, no idea where you are!

Just to add, I don't go around punching people i dislike.

Nor should Zak, it's extremely bad manners and I'm off to look for a behaviourist.

 

[Leah3horses]

Oh dear...hip dysplasia and aggression,at a young age?Who bred this poor dog? Lots of good advice posted...all pet dogs really should be neutered in my opinion, one less thing for them to be influenced by, particularly males. Try a supplement called 'Serene-Um Calm', on top of your other sensible plans...give him 2 more per day than required for his size...it really can help with behaviour issues,has helped me a lot with my rescue dogs over the years, different problems at different levels. You can by the supplement in Pets at Home, it's not prescription only, but better than a lot of the prescribed drugs we prescribe at work for such problems...it doesn't sedate, just seems to calm them down and reduce problem behaviours as they aren't as reactive. Would like to know more about his relationship with you and your other animals, particularly his littermate..could be something very subtle to do with his relationships that not even all behaviourists would consider..feel free to pm me? Are you also planning to get his littermate neutured? This my not be the best idea to do at the same time, depending upon a lot of factors, will gladly explain via pm. What breed is your dog please?

 

[Vizslak]

please be aware aggression CAN be pain related, how are his hips at the moment? Is he on any metacam or other pain relief?
Otherwise, good advice in previous posts.

 

[galaxy]

If you are reluctant to castrate him, you could ask your vet to give him the hormone jab (I have no idea what it is called). It suppresses their male hormones and will make them like they would be if they have had the chop. Then you will know if it will help before doing the op.

My vet will not routinely castrate dogs and always suggest the injection if you go to him with a behavioural problem to see if it is the hormones causing the issue or not.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Another good reason for neutering is in my opinion it makes them less desirable for anyone who wants to steal him and breed from him.

Poor boy he has had his fair share of troubles and Im another who thinks that unusual behaviour should be checked out by the vet. Its more worrying imo because he dosnt growl but just bites which to me points to pain related issues.

 

[Brownmare]

Just a thought but does this friend wear a particular perfume or hand cream that he may be reacting to? I've known dogs have some strange reactions to different smells and being a Spaniel he is ruled by his nose! Of course I would rule out anything pain related first x

 

[Leah3horses]

If you are reluctant to castrate him, you could ask your vet to give him the hormone jab (I have no idea what it is called). It suppresses their male hormones and will make them like they would be if they have had the chop. Then you will know if it will help before doing the op.

My vet will not routinely castrate dogs and always suggest the injection if you go to him with a behavioural problem to see if it is the hormones causing the issue or not.

The injection, Tardak, has been linked to hormone related cancers in later life..and most vets would be more reluctant to give Tardak, than to castrate, that's for sure..... Your vets personal or cultural reasons for not castrating dogs ,would be very interesting to hear. Wonder if he feels as strongly about Tom cats and Stallions staying entire?

Also, Tardak injections don't give a reliable idea of what they would be like as the effects of castration can improve behaviour over a period of many months.. up to a year after the op....it would be foolish to give Tardak for this long, so you will only know how your dog will behave after castration..if you castrate him. If owners for some reason are reluctant to castrate, they should look at the evidence of what is best for their dog. Not only in questions of behaviour..but also safety..I have had to treat horrible injuries in dogs from RTA s where the dog has ran wildly to follow the scent of an in season bitch...right in front of a car, or worse, lorry Also..malignant tumours are much higher in both un neutured sexes in later age, even worse with Tardak injections.

 

[Leah3horses]

I'm looking into how dogs change for the better with neutering.

Zak, now just over a year, has dog on dog aggression (sometimes), probably a lot to do with being on the lead because of hip dysplasia at a time when most puppies are socialising. He has also snapped at a (same) friend twice. He's fine with the other dogs in the house, very in their face, doesn't know when to stop, but no aggression. However, the frequency of meeting other dogs and the incidents of aggression are mounting.

He's at training class weekly, gets on ok with the other dogs, but they don't go off lead. He's fine with people who are in the house a lot, but I'm terrified at the idea of him biting someone. He will be wearing a muzzle outside from now on. Training will be ongoing.

So, will neutering stop his aggressiveness? Or is the behaviour ingrained?

Just read that your dog is a Spaniel?Poor lad, having hip dysplasia and now behavioural problems..as another poster rightly said, if he is in pain from his HD he could feel defensive with other dogs, and be trying to protect his back end. Has his litter mate been x rayed for HD too? (Why didn't the 'breeder' X Ray for HD, do you know?) What a shame..Spaniels should be the most agile,athletic, hardy and happy dogs, as I'm sure you know..grrr, makes me angry when humans inflict HD on animals So uneccessary...and you, his loving owners, are left to deal with the results. Can't recommend the 'Serene Um' tablets enough, hope you can get some for him, you should see a difference if the aggression is behavioural within 2 weeks.

 

[galaxy]

The injection, Tardak, has been linked to hormone related cancers in later life..and most vets would be more reluctant to give Tardak, than to castrate, that's for sure..... Your vets personal or cultural reasons for not castrating dogs ,would be very interesting to hear. Wonder if he feels as strongly about Tom cats and Stallions staying entire?

Also, Tardak injections don't give a reliable idea of what they would be like as the effects of castration can improve behaviour over a period of many months.. up to a year after the op....it would be foolish to give Tardak for this long, so you will only know how your dog will behave after castration..if you castrate him. If owners for some reason are reluctant to castrate, they should look at the evidence of what is best for their dog. Not only in questions of behaviour..but also safety..I have had to treat horrible injuries in dogs from RTA s where the dog has ran wildly to follow the scent of an in season bitch...right in front of a car, or worse, lorry Also..malignant tumours are much higher in both un neutured sexes in later age, even worse with Tardak injections.

My vet is a small animal vet, so doubt he would have an opinion on stallions! He does approve of neutering cats because you cannot control their behaviour.

If you had a "wandering" problem he would neuture. He would care for your pets safety. I was not at all reluctant to neuture my dog. I went to him when he was a puppy, asked about neuturing and he told me that he does not believe that the health "benefits" that everyone talks about outweigh the negatives of neuturing (health wise) that people do not seem so aware of (mainly because their vets do not talk about them).

My vet is very well respected in the area and I trust him completely 100%. If I went in and said I wanted H done he would do it, it is my decision.

CT is actually the best one to talk to about the benefits of NOT neuturing. She knows a lot about it. Hence the hesitant tone of of her post.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Oh dear...hip dysplasia and aggression,at a young age?Who bred this poor dog?

Irrelevant re the aggression. His dam and grand dam were both friendly, gorgeous, well mannered dogs. I admiti didn't source health tested pups, stupid me, not a good time in my life.

The littermate is the calmest, most laid back dog I've ever met.

I will try the calmer, thanks.

Pretty sure I posted this already: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf It's not definitive but I'd rather not neuter as there appear to be more health benefits to leaving dogs entire. He's not interested in bitches currently.

 

[Leah3horses]

Irrelevant re the aggression. His dam and grand dam were both friendly, gorgeous, well mannered dogs. I admiti didn't source health tested pups, stupid me, not a good time in my life.

The littermate is the calmest, most laid back dog I've ever met.

I will try the calmer, thanks.

Pretty sure I posted this already: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf It's not definitive but I'd rather not neuter as there appear to be more health benefits to leaving dogs entire. He's not interested in bitches currently.

I'm afraid IF the aggression is linked to being in pain from his HD, then it is directly linked to his breeding, not irellevant as you say...also, seeing as aggression Spaniels is against breed type, it could be said it could be linked to his breeding anyway, unfortunately. You mention his Dam and Grand Dam, 50% of your dogs' line....no information on the Sire and Sire line?


I have come across the Sanford paper before, as I am a Vet Nurse. It has been largely discredited as anecdotal and unscientific. For instance..to blame obesity on nuetering is obviously illogical..obesity is caused solely by owners overfeeding animals, wether the pet is neutered or not. Responsible owners do not allow or encourage obesity in their pets. Incidentally, another of the points in the discredited paper seems to blame osteo sarcomas on nuetering...when, in some of the large breeds, it is the cause of death in 80% of early deaths anyway...and obesity is a leading factor. This single paper cannot be cited as comprehensive, scientific evidence that neutering causes health problems. There are thousands more thoroughly researched, scientificly evidenced papers supporting neutering as a good health choice for a pet..never mind the obvious main reasons for doing so, which the paper you quote admits it totally ignores...to curb reproduction, and to influence behaviour. As you know, neutering alone cannot 'solve' a behviour problem.Nothing can. But it can have a direct positive effect. I had to castrate a Crufts winning show dog at the age of 14 months for this very reason...at the time it was very frowned upon in show dogs, and it is/was a rare breed so a very good example would have been valuable to the gene pool...except , there is/was also a problem with deteriorating temperaments in the breed..I was under tremendous pressure from the breeder and the breed society NOT to castrate. I did, and although it took 6 to 8 months following neutering, my dog lived for another 6 years, which he would not have done if left entire, so bad was his inherited dog to dog and human aggression (was a livestock guarding breed, not a pet breed). My dog had been socialised from the age of 7 weeks and went to work with me at the Vets, as all my other dogs do and did.

At the end of the day, what valid reason is there for pets to remain entire?Of all my dogs, only one has been aggressive..but I have always chosen neutering for my packs of pet dogs..as any good rescue society insist on. They have all been happy, cheerful, very sociable dogs,of both sexes,groups of between 3 to 6 at a time, who never had/have any urges or hormone led 'moods' to worry about...they got on with their very important jobs of being much loved pets and companions. Without any neuter related health issues, I might add


Seeing as your dogs' littermate is so placid , the pain factor from his HD should be looked into first...even learnt pain, as in horses, can leave scars when the acute pain has gone..

I really do empathise with you, you obviously are concerned for your dog..living with a dog who can be aggressive at times is stressful and worrying, I know from first hand experience..and with the anti dog brigade and the DDA we can't be too careful Maybe he will be happier being more of a stay at home dog, quiet walks etc..but your other dog sounds happier with being a more sociable sort..My 4 I've got now have all been raised the same, but one is definitely happier with a quieter life than the other 3, who are outgoing social butterflies...so I take my 3 sociable types to training and all sorts of activities..my other one really wasn't happy being forced to partake so she happily stays at home with my BF watching tv Our animals tell us everything, we just have to listen.


Best of luck with him.

 

[SavingGrace]

Made absolutely no difference to Nippy!

 

[Leah3horses]

Made absolutely no difference to Nippy!

What didn't?Being neutered? It isn't a magic cure all,nobody is saying it is..but it is an important thing to consider when dealing with an aggression issue, along with all the other obvious things we have to look at!

Dogs are individuals and have to be treated as such..my main point is that there are no guarantees but it's worth trying anything when dealing with aggression, even things you have a personal dislike of for whatever reason. Except forceful methods, obviously. Even then, even though I hate electric shock collars and can't believe people actually think they are ok to use in everyday life(poor dogs)..there is even a time and place when they are worth a try as a last resort, in the hands of an experienced trainer only.Thinking of when 2 dogs in a household want to fight to the death,or want to fight anything to the death for that matter,livestock deaths,extreme cases where the next stop is the one way trip to the Vets

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Made absolutely no difference to Nippy!

Hello, hunny!

Aggression against spaniel breed type? Really? Out of the 4 I've had and the two my FIL had, 2 had aggressive issues. Ever heard of springer 'rage'? It's apparently quite common.

I don't think neutering is a quick fix, I'd rather train/see a behaviourist. He was perfectly fine with a friend's old lab this morning and I made him ignore a bichon type so I'm quite happy with this. I'm going to ask the neighbour to use her son's dog (under control, obviously) as a stooge. I know the dogs dislike one another.

Zak is not going to be a stay at home dog, I think that's a pretty outrageous thing to say when you don't know the dog or our situation. He would die of boredom and no way would I subject him to such a tedious life. He will be walked in a safe area.

I'm going to request a vet check and if there is a pain issue, I will want the Trocoxil route.

 

[Leah3horses]

Hello, hunny!

Aggression against spaniel breed type? Really? Out of the 4 I've had and the two my FIL had, 2 had aggressive issues. Ever heard of springer 'rage'? It's apparently quite common.

I don't think neutering is a quick fix, I'd rather train/see a behaviourist. He was perfectly fine with a friend's old lab this morning and I made him ignore a bichon type so I'm quite happy with this. I'm going to ask the neighbour to use her son's dog (under control, obviously) as a stooge. I know the dogs dislike one another.

Zak is not going to be a stay at home dog, I think that's a pretty outrageous thing to say when you don't know the dog or our situation. He would die of boredom and no way would I subject him to such a tedious life. He will be walked in a safe area.

I'm going to request a vet check and if there is a pain issue, I will want the Trocoxil route.

Yes, Springer and Cocker 'rage' is a syndrome, very untypical and incorrect for the breed,and unheard of until 20 years ago. Any working breed, especially gundogs, with aggression would never have been bred from before then..and therein lies the problem! Backyard breeders should be made illegal in this country, they have ruined so many breeds, both physically and mentally. A Spaniel should never be aggressive.Or be anything less than merry and athletic.Read the Breed Standard.Pity some 'breeders' never did.

For any dog to snap at a human , unprovoked, is very serious. And how you describe your dogs' behaviour is nothing like Rage Sydrome, so please don't use that angle. Rage Syndrome is extremely serious and dangerous ,and totally inherited from certain overused lines , and has no cure..so if you are saying your dog may have that then why even ask the question about neutering? Or maybe you were just trying to appear informed by mentioning Rage Syndrome.

I was trying to be helpful, to come up with suggestions from different angles..after all, you did ask a rather open question, I was trying to answer it, in good faith, and with a lot of relevant experience..of course, I don't know your dog, this is a forum??! I wasn't telling you what to do, and in no way is it an outrageous suggestion, it works very well for some dogs, having a quieter calmer life..not being a stay at home couch potato, no, but then I never did or would say this..all dogs need decent exercise.

Seeing as you are being personally abrupt towards me, I will leave you with this. What I think is 'outrageous' is pet owners with a little knowledge, but not a lot, so they ask for advice..and then get irate when the advice doesn't match their own beliefs, or has discredited old wives tales they believe.

To find 'safe' areas where you are never going to come across another aggressive dog off lead is quite unrealistic. Owners of other aggressive dogs walk their dogs in out of the way places too, for obvious reasons.

Won't be checking back, but thanks for your reasonable, measured responses. Wish you the best of luck with your dog.

 

[Petunia]

1. Neuter him - why on earth would you want a dog showing aggressive tendencies with physical problems to be entire. All male dogs should be neutered unless with professional breeders.

This will not guarantee a change in behaviour but it is a start and will help with the basic training.

2. Training - this dog is clearly one with way too much attitude as to who is the boss. Quite often we treat every dog the same and it is just pure luck that not all of them have turned out with unacceptable tendencies...A dog behaviourist is simply a trainer - but you really do need a one to one approach rather than group classes.

3. Muzzle when you are out so you are showing responsible ownership. Take control of people in your own home i.e. do not put them into a situation where they can be bitten. If he bites once, you have an aggressive dog who will bite again. Start reward based aversion and attention training at home - any trainer worth their salts will show you how.

But certainly the neutering to me is an absolute must....

 

[MurphysMinder]

Leah I agree with a lot of what you say, but would argue with your statement that rage syndrome was unheard of until 20 years ago. My grandmother bred cockers, post war, and I can remember her talking about dogs with rage sydrome, particularly golden cockers. That was nearer 50 years ago. CT, as Leah says, although dam and grand dam had good temperaments, did you ever meet the sire and get an idea of his temperament?
One thing that occurs to me is that you say that his litter brother is very calm and laid back, could it be that Zak has learned to be dominant over his brother and is now just trying to assert himself elsewhere. Personally I would have him castrated but also look into whether there is a pain issue. I know you have done lots of research but perhaps be guided by your vet as to the best pain relief rather than stating you want to go the Troxocil route.
I hope you are able to sort this out, I do agree that it wouldn't be fair to keep him as a stay at home dog if that is not in his nature.

 

[SavingGrace]

What didn't?Being neutered? It isn't a magic cure all,nobody is saying it is..but it is an important thing to consider when dealing with an aggression issue, along with all the other obvious things we have to look at!

Being neutered made absolutely no difference to my Staffy Nippy is what I meant! I was just answering CM's question... I for one am all for neutering them if they are not used to be used for breeding purposes! My current dog is neutered and my Bitch is spayed!

My dog Nippy whom I sadly lost to cancer last summer was a rather speshul boy whom the OP knew all about so I am sure she understands what was meant with my comment... sorry if it came accross the wrong way...

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Some interesting and lengthy answers/advice, all of which has been considered.

Please note that at no point did I claim that my dog has rage: that was a comment in response to someone saying spaniels shouldn't be aggressive. No dog should be aggressive! Zak is not attacking everyone and every dog he meets. He has only ever snapped at one person (didn't connect) and he will never be forced into a situation where this is an option.

He will be vet checked and the vet's advice will be followed re management.

I asked on here as there is lots of experience and knowledge and I wanted some reassurance that all is not lost, which I got, thanks.

Neutering is not a quick fix nor is there a valid point if the aggression is not due to being whole. I'd rather not neuter as this loss of testosterone may, as I understand in my unknowledgable manner, lead to a dog becoming more reactive/fear aggressive due to timidity. God, I really must stop talking to my vet mates!

As he's rarely off lead, he will not be at risk of catching a bitch. It is perfectly possible to walk in my area without meeting other dogs/people. However, I will be addressing the problem rather than just avoiding it.

Thanks to Spudlet for passing on the name of a behaviourist.