Canter shoulder-in?

[tigers_eye]

No-one has ever given me a satisfactory explanation as to why shoulder-in is not performed in canter in dressage tests. Every trainer I can think of that I've had has asked me to use it, so why is it deemed not performance-worthy? Yours, winter-hibernater

.

 

[kerilli]

i could be totally wrong, but i think it's because in tests you need to show the straightness of the canter, so while canter shoulder-in is used in training to supple up and engage, the straightness of the canter is actually tested in a test... if that makes sense. whereas it's much easier to keep a horse straight in trot than in canter, so 'normal' trot as well as shoulder-in in trot are asked for. hope that makes sense, i think it sort-of does...!

 

[TableDancer]

Good one

There's definitely something in K's theory, after all don't you find you are effectivey riding canter s/i on at least one rein just to stay straight? (or is it just mine that are as 1/4s in as hell given half a chance?

) Should post it on the BD Forum and listen out for the squawks

 

[tigers_eye]

Hmm, not convinced, I mean how hard can it be to write a test that involves both shoulder in and a straight line?! Especially at higher levels, when you canter in at the start, the judges have their opportunity right from the off to slate your straightness. TD I agree that a straight canter is often ridden as a mild shoulder in, if only to keep the buggers from changing legs/pissing off/showing their miraculous ability for travers which disappears once in trot. I remember a fab pic of PF, think it was from her vid (or book?) on prodcing young horses, she's cantering towards the camera and I've never seen anything so straight, not a hindleg in sight.

 

[Baydale]

[ QUOTE ]
Good one

There's definitely something in K's theory, after all don't you find you are effectively riding canter s/i on at least one rein just to stay straight? (or is it just mine that are as 1/4s in as hell given half a chance?

) Should post it on the BD Forum and listen out for the squawks

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, it's not just yours.

HH loves his canter travers

and grunts like mad when you ask him to change that to shoulder fore. Heaven help me when I have to do a test that involves cantering down the centre line.

 

[Booboos]

I was always taught not to do shoulder in in canter, at most to do shoulder fore, but didn't really know why.

Just googled it and came across this:

"Shoulder-in in canter is both difficult and potentially harmful. This is so because the frontlegs cross. When the outer frontleg has landed the inner frontleg must pass it and land in front of it. This risks the horse brushing his legs or even stumbling. This is why we don't reide a proper shoulder-in at the canter, but merely a tendency for shoulder-fore. That is because at that little angle, the frontlegs actually don't cross . but that inside hindleg will still be placed in under the center of gravity, and be forced to bend and take the load."

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/collection/lateral.php

 

[Baydale]

Thanks booboos, that saves us embarrassing ourselves on the BD forum.

 

[tigers_eye]

Now that's the most explanation I've had! However, call me a dunce, but I was under the impression my horse's front legs crossed in trot in shoulder-in? And, if I'm being pernickety, they do too in a very steep half pass?

 

[dressagecrazy]

Ok, well this was explained at the BD Conferance with Jean Bemelmans. Please bare with me as im not brilliant at explaining in the written form.

The simple version is that Shoulder in improves the Trot & not the Canter, Simply because of the trot being a 2 beat diagonol. So it comes down to mechanics.

The Canter is a 3 beat which makes shoulder in quite difficult, Traver is or quaters in is easier for the horse in canter. Hence why we get it sometimes when we dont want it lol.

I do use slight shoulder fore in Canter but i rarely do shoulder in work in Canter. If i need to as horse is peeing about i do use SI.

Im sure someone who is better at explaining (written wise) will be able to enlighten you all further.

Unfortunately for me i prefer teaching & riding to writing.

 

[Booboos]

Mmmm, I don't know! I can ask my dressage trainer and see what she says?

I suppose in the half-pass you have one side-ways step and one forwards, so the crossing is always sideways and clear of the forwards movement, so I imagine you don't get a problem.

In the shoulder-in in trot, the movement is two beat so I don't think there would be crossing. As the horse moves in three tracks the two diagonal movements should be clear of each other. Maybe the problem is created in the three beat canter?

 

[Booboos]

Thanks dressagecrazy!!! I must have been away with the fairies when he discussed this at the BD convention!!!

 

[tigers_eye]

What we need here is some really slowed down footage isn't it?

 

[horseywelsh]

i too have been taught never to ride shoulder in in the canter, but you can ask for shoulder fore to improve straightness etc

 

[dressagecrazy]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks dressagecrazy!!! I must have been away with the fairies when he discussed this at the BD convention!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, you wernt. I was over the otherside of the arena when he explained this in the Q&A's before lunch. I liked his explanation as it was easy & simple & i understood it lol.
You could definitely hear better over that side. Next year we should sit that end.

 

[kerilli]

having read these answers, yes, must admit when i think about it that i've worked in canter shoulder-fore but never really in canter shoulder-in as such...

 

[Weezy]

QR

I was always told that shoulder-in is a trot exercise only, that comes from very classical and well thought of people, so prob the reason it is not in tests is because, classically, it is not considered correct

 

[Munchkin]

[ QUOTE ]
I was always told that shoulder-in is a trot exercise only, that comes from very classical and well thought of people, so prob the reason it is not in tests is because, classically, it is not considered correct

[/ QUOTE ]

Cue introduction of canter shoulder-in to all FEI tests

 

[Weezy]

LOL, yes, probably!

 

[oldvic]

In canter the exercise is shoulder fore to improve engagement and straightness. In shoulder-in the leading foreleg would cross back across the outside foreleg whereas in half pass it is the outside foreleg crossing infront of the inside one. In canter half pass this means that the outside front leg comes across during the period of suspension so there is no crossing. Shoulder fore is a training exercise in the same way as you may give the horse a counter bend, not an exercise for competition.