Car chasing - your thoughts on the schools of thought

B

BBP

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 July 2008
Messages
6,587
Visit site
So in my researching how to work to improve dogs that react to cars I came across a couple of videos and wanted to hear the views of those of you who are more experienced than I am with dogs.
The first two videos it’s more the description beneath than the actual video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4nvvFxeAFAU
And same guy
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OLsB7yB1Ta0

Both basically saying that with a dog like mine desensitisation and reward based training/counter conditioning will not work, and that using aversive methods (electric collar in this case, a shaking can in others) will make the dog safe and walkable in one day.

Vs this where they are trying to achieve the same results but the dog in the video is still clearly reactive.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NMafvtewq94
Or this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=buaZctWLWR0

I have my own views but they are not necessarily the same as my partner (who is responsible for the dog 5 days out of 7). I need to get us both working on the same page and explain the ins and outs of both ways of thinking. (He doesn’t research dog training like I have been and thinks I overthink everything - I dont want to assume I’m always right if I’m wrong, hence asking for your views.)
 
Too late to start watching videos but will have a look tomorrow.

Car chasing, tail chasing, noise sensitivity etc is genetic/instinctual and can't be ever truly fixed, you just train over the top of it or redirect it IMO.
The same as a dog with inbuilt prey/hunt drive or herding etc.
Sometimes it gets better with maturity, sometimes worse.
I desensitized a dog to vehicles the boring way, by the way :p

One has to ask oneself in cases like vehicle and livestock chasing, for example, is use of aversives and momentary stress for a dog, worse than a dead dog or livestock or driver.
There are dogs trained with aversives who still look happy and wag their tails. There are dogs trained purely positive who are grey around the muzzle and look older and more stressed than their years suggest.
Who's wrong? Whoever is using the wrong method for that particular dog.

It depends on the dog and whatever you do, the training should be tailored to the dog and introduced properly.
Immediately administering an aversive to a dog that's never experienced it, or starting to click and feed a dog that doesn't know the link between clicker and correct behaviour are equally as stupid.

Dogs need to learn how to learn.
Not teaching a dog how to deal with stress is a big problem in dog training IMO.

Sharing this again because I agree.
http://growingupguidepup.org/the-punishment-of-positive-only/
 
Last edited:
Whatever method people use, training self control will go a long way to make any dog more capable of giving their owners' wishes full attention. It gives the animal a default behaviour for stressful situations. Teaching stays, leave it, watch me, walking at heel, emergency stops and settle down will give the relationship a good base for solving future problems or even nipping them in the bud.

Reward training is usually effective to teach this though any dereliction when the lesson has been learnt needs a reprimand (totally tailored to the dog, some will be shattered by a 'no', others need a full on voice of doom). Without being unduly harsh the dog has to learn wrong from right. The training can be started in a low stimulus environment, introducing escalating distractions to proof the training over time.

A good example of self control is the herding dog. A sheep dog to be useful has to learn enough self control not to stampede the flock, however he needs the reward of herding as well, so self control must be rewarded by an activity the dog finds satisfying to make a happy compliant animal. (Any of the dog sports might do as herding is not most owners' occupation!). You do not 'make' a trained high drive dog in a few weeks and you need to be able to decide in a split second how to respond to a dog's behaviour, whether by coaxing a different one or stamping on it immediately. Theory can help but experience is key I am afraid. And patience and self control on the part of the trainer too.
 
The first video shows me nothing as the dog is said to have been reactive but we don't see that.
The second video the dog seeks reassurance from everyone and rarely gets it, one person to give it is a passer by, the handler also does not set the dog up to succeed with the passers by, he waits till the dog fails and then corrects which allows an unwanted behaviour to be repeated. The dog has not been treated in such a way that it is comfortable in the environment it is just not chasing. Although the first part of that video shows me a dog that looks to be untrained on a lead rather than a chaser.
The third dog is a work in progress and the handler is pushing the dog too far, but we do see a true chaser.
The third one, fantastic, the dogs emotion around cars and moving things has been changed which in an ideal world is what you are wanting to achieve with any behaviour modification training. The dog is also shown learning more appropriate outlets for the chase instinct so frustration levels should reduce.
Teaching an incompatible behaviour is for me the best thing to do.
I agree agree with CC you can't truly remove the dogs genetic/instinctual behaviours but you can replace a behaviour/response with a more suitable one, so that's where mutually exclusive behaviours or redirections come in.
Positive training is for me the best way to train, changing a dogs emotional state when presented with certain triggers leaves the dog more positively able to cope in the real world, shutting a behaviour down with adversives is often quicker but I don't like the emotional fall out that is risked to get there.
Positive training requires far more time/constancy and effort but if done correctly the end result is a dog that feels differently in a given situation.
 
This is another one from the same trainer (I’m not picking on this trainer but they have the first videos that pop up)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hiGxrJBTijI

The first few minutes are what bother me about this method, I see a dog that is no longer lunging at cars but who to me looks very anxious.
 
Again I have only scanned the videos quickly.

The last one, I see the dog in the raw, on a loose line, with no control. I think that is the dog's response to any sort of stress or extinguishing of behaviour. That's not a training issue, it's a breeding one IMO.

The collie in the second video is getting off on the chase. The dog loves it. Handler might as well be a gatepost versus the thrill of chasing cars. Obviously it will look a bit 'put out' if it is stopped doing what it wants to do.

I can't have the sound on at the moment but what I see with the rough collie or sheltie is a lot of waffling lol.
And the bulldog is way too big. I do like the engagement with the toy but he is a bit too overbearing and 'over' the dog (again this is with sound off).

The last video in your first post is the one I like the most with Louie. And is what I would do *if* only using positive methods. The car/other dog/sheep should become the trigger for something good to happen and it should be coming from the handler.

BUT please remember, with any commercial dog trainer, they all have something to sell. That's not a criticism, it's a fact.

Another big problem is no engagement between dog and handler.
Last night I was in the park and there was a big massive dog on the end of a flexi, stalking mine, ears forward, tail over the back, this sort of behaviour is likely to make my dog react right back.
So I took him off the path to the side and had a game with him. He glanced at the other dog, but we were having fun so he thought better of it.
The owners of the other dog looked fretful, but did not try and engage their dog, merely permitted him to go to the end of the line and eyeball another dog.
If it's eyeballing another dog, getting all big and puffed up and feeling strong VS two utter boring sacks of meat not even trying to talk to him, what is the dog going to choose?

OH one more thing about cars that a lot of people forget.
Get down on the pavement with your dog's eye level. It's not actually pleasant when a car or a lorry goes whizzing past. We tend to look at approaching vehicles, literally, from a different point of view. When the headlights are in your face and the noisy engine and movey tyres are metres from your ears and eyeballs, which are much more sensitive that ours, do we really wonder why a lot of dogs don't like cars.
 
Last edited:
BBP said:
This is another one from the same trainer (I’m not picking on this trainer but they have the first videos that pop up)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hiGxrJBTijI

The first few minutes are what bother me about this method, I see a dog that is no longer lunging at cars but who to me looks very anxious.
Click to expand...

The dog is not that bad to start with, Re direction would have sorted the issue without making the dig more anxious and fearful of traffic.
For me if and when it can be trained positively (and it almost always can) I have no idea why people want to do it any other way.
 
Thanks everyone, I'm really getting a lot from reading your replies.

My OH likes the idea of a short sharp win whereas I would rather spend the time training the dog to respond in a different way to the stimulus (but OH does not put in the same effort with training when he has the dog). I have seen good progress with the dog when I get him for a few days, working further back from the road, energising the dog to play with me and be interested in me, and only progressing closer when he is not bothered by the cars. OH thinks my way takes too long (and he isn't backing the training up) and that an e-collar or shaker bottle would be more effective (but i'm not sure either of us has the experience to deliver a 'correction' with the right timing without ending up with a stressed dog who may find cars make him more anxious). My OH is harder to train than the dog! (unless Im wrong and its me who is hard to train!)

I have the dog to myself for a few weeks coming up so am looking forwards to really putting the work in, building his enthusiasm for being with me instead of in what the cars are up to, and proving that with consistency it can be done.

But that said, this puppy has a very strong instinct towards cars (worse than any of the dogs in these videos), so wish me luck! I have some sessions booked with a sheepdog trainer who specialises in dogs that worry sheep, so I am hoping he can show me the flaws in how I handle my dog and help me learn how to get him focussed on me.
 
BBP the more I read of your posts, the more I see a problem with two people trying to do different things with the same dog.
However going from your posts, I think you should take the lead on this matter. A quick fix is great only when the trainer knows exactly what they are doing and depends on the relationship that the handler has with the dog.
And sorry, purely going from your posts, your OH does not sound like he knows what he is doing and this is the danger when training videos are posted to the internet.
I know people who copy exactly the things they see on the internet without knowing the years of training and conditioning that have been done to get to that point.
I'm a big fan of experience, but the theory does certainly help!!
With any luck the trainer will be able to point you in the right direction.

Nearly all horse training is based on pressure and release, I don't know why we consider dog training to be so different.
If the dog experiences a brief moment of discomfort in order to snap them out of a fixation, then is immediately rewarded for turning their attention to you or stopping that behaviour, is that any different to pulling on a bit to get it to stop, and then letting the reins go loose once they have calmed down and relaxed?
Yes, I know about stopping with your seat also ;)
As a more general point, telling a dog that everything in life is stress free, is selling them a lie. When the stress comes and their world collapses, is there anything 'positive' in that, except that we humans feel a bit better about ourselves?
 
Last edited:
You've had some great advice already and I definitely agree with those who say such a strong chase instinct can never be truly trained out of a dog (after all, generations of selective breeding cannot be denied). Instead you want to work on impulse control, redirecting your dog on to more appropriate outlets for the chase/herding behaviour he is showing and up his overall obedience and focus on you. I only quickly flicked through the videos as have too little internet time at the moment, but the work with Louie the border collie looked the way I would train. The blue merle collie with the ecollar trainer just looked tense, anxious and unhappy - not something I would want to put my dog through.

One of our young sheepdogs chased cars for a while. It was a hard one to work on as we have very little traffic and he detests travelling but with building a stronger bond with him through one to one play and training sessions focusing on recall, lie down, watch me, as well as giving him regular short sessions with the training sheep (giving him the much needed outlet for his instinctual behaviour) he is much better now.

Who is the sheepdog trainer you are seeing?
 
Also, unless you can get your OH on to the same page with regards to training as you are then you are fighting a losing battle. It would actually be better if he did no training whatsoever and left that to you. Is there no way of you having more time with the dog than your OH?
 
BBP said:
OH thinks my way takes too long (and he isn't backing the training up) and that an e-collar or shaker bottle would be more effective .
Click to expand...

Please no to the e collar. They have a place, in the hands of a VERY experienced trainer with a truly hard headed dog but not in normal day to day training. The shaker bottle possibly, but when we rehomed a BT who barked incessantly she just barked at the shaker bottle that her former owner sent with her, but I imagine with the right dog in the right place they may work. A highly driven and stressed dog like a collie would not be ideal for either, IMO, although I am absolutely no expert like CC or WGSD.
 
planete said:
Whatever method people use, training self control will go a long way to make any dog more capable of giving their owners' wishes full attention. It gives the animal a default behaviour for stressful situations. Teaching stays, leave it, watch me, walking at heel, emergency stops and settle down will give the relationship a good base for solving future problems or even nipping them in the bud.


A good example of self control is the herding dog. A sheep dog to be useful has to learn enough self control not to stampede the flock, however he needs the reward of herding as well, so self control must be rewarded by an activity the dog finds satisfying to make a happy compliant animal. (Any of the dog sports might do as herding is not most owners' occupation!). You do not 'make' a trained high drive dog in a few weeks and you need to be able to decide in a split second how to respond to a dog's behaviour, whether by coaxing a different one or stamping on it immediately. Theory can help but experience is key I am afraid. And patience and self control on the part of the trainer too.
Click to expand...

great post planete. Quarrie (retriever) has a high drive and I've put so much time and effort into impulse control and in the early days we would take several steps backwards when the OH would take him out-in the end I stopped it although he does take him now. what really turned him around was introducing dummy retrieving. and both my dogs have a rock solid 'leave' command. now at 2yo he's a steady dog -I expect someone better could have done it sooner but then most of us aren't expert dog trainers.

be wary of harsh training methods with a BC OP, been there and done that and it did not do the dog any good whatsoever.
 
WorkingGSD said:
You've had some great advice already and I definitely agree with those who say such a strong chase instinct can never be truly trained out of a dog (after all, generations of selective breeding cannot be denied). Instead you want to work on impulse control, redirecting your dog on to more appropriate outlets for the chase/herding behaviour he is showing and up his overall obedience and focus on you. I only quickly flicked through the videos as have too little internet time at the moment, but the work with Louie the border collie looked the way I would train. The blue merle collie with the ecollar trainer just looked tense, anxious and unhappy - not something I would want to put my dog through.

One of our young sheepdogs chased cars for a while. It was a hard one to work on as we have very little traffic and he detests travelling but with building a stronger bond with him through one to one play and training sessions focusing on recall, lie down, watch me, as well as giving him regular short sessions with the training sheep (giving him the much needed outlet for his instinctual behaviour) he is much better now.

Who is the sheepdog trainer you are seeing?
Click to expand...

Phew, finally I am able to respond again, the forum wouldn't let me write anything.

The sheepdog trainer is Nij Vyas, he was the only one I could find who offered training for sheep worrying over the course of a number of sessions and seems to be positive based and assesses how you and your dog interact, showing you the weaknesses in how you handle the dog. He said he doesn't follow aversive methods of some others. I went for someone who does training for dogs that worry sheep as i think the same behaviour that makes him want to chase cars is the behaviour that makes him want to run at my horses, or my cat that runs, or chase birds across the sky. So I think the same training concepts should help. I have tried to explain to my OH that I do not want to use the versive methods if at all possible as I believe they can increase the anxiety and stress levels of the dog which could make certain aspects worse.

The reason OH has the dog most of the time is that he is allowed to take the dog in to work with him, and he works away from home Mon-Fri, so usually I only get puppy time Sat/Sun. The idea was that the dog was really 'his' dog....but that didn't last long so I see puppy as mine as well and feel responsible to make sure he grows up properly. However I have a period of about 4 weeks coming up where he will be home so I can really work on things that might be missing from our training.

OH and I have different backgrounds when it comes to animals, I have grown up in an animal friendly family, around horses and pet dogs, having a collie since I was 13. I spend a lot of time reading up, watching videos, and observing behaviours, and my training with BBP is very positive based (he is a very 'collie like' horse!). My OH grew up abroad, where dogs were not pets to be walked but were guard animals whose only exercise was running loose guarding gated compounds. His parents also used a lot of punishment methods and were from what I understand, fairly tough on both their animals and children (not cruel, but they did all used to get a good hiding if they misbehaved), so I try to be understanding of his background when we talk about methods of training. Usually he sees things my way once we have talked it through, and he can see that a lot of the work that I have done with the puppy has really helped. Being a 'typical man' (hopefully that doesn't sound disrespectful) he has to come to these conclusions himself and work out the logic in them, and the science behind them to really get behind them. Which is why I was interested in explanations from you all about your thoughts on these methods, so I can feed them into our conversations.

He has done some wonderful work with the dog and benefits form being much more laid back than I am, in that the high pitched reactions to certain things don't worry him or stress him, whereas with my neuro Lyme I sometimes find these hard to deal with and feel out of my depth when he is yapping away and my brain is screaming. We have ditched the bowl and are making the dog effectively work for his food, even if it is just a sit and 'leave it' whilst we scatter the food. Puppy is the most sociable little dog, loved by everyone. he is now great around other dogs, where he used to get frustrated not being able to greet them and get yappy and over stressed, now he will happily go in shops and cafes and chill without making a fuss. he is happy to be looked after by strangers, he will ignore other dogs if asked, or will play really kindly if allowed to play. He is quiet, polite to lead (away from cars or livestock), laid back and well house-trained, so a lot of positive things.

I took him out this morning early with peanut butter smeared on the scoop of a ball chucker and had some really positive moments where he allowed himself to be distracted form the cards, it wasn't perfect, but I was feeling really positive that if I can do this sort of thing for a month solid and then get OH to follow it up when he sees that i am making progress, plus whatever other tips and techniques we learn from the trainer and the other work Im doing.

I know i sometimes sound stressy and like my dog is a nightmare, I promise he isn't! As said before, I think the Lyme brain pain makes me take things too hard when they aren't just right, I feel out of my depth at times and like Im not worthy to be a dog owner. But then I see how awesome he is, like at the cafe yesterday, and I realise I love him more than i ever thought possible. :)
 
Clodagh said:
Please no to the e collar. They have a place, in the hands of a VERY experienced trainer with a truly hard headed dog but not in normal day to day training. The shaker bottle possibly, but when we rehomed a BT who barked incessantly she just barked at the shaker bottle that her former owner sent with her, but I imagine with the right dog in the right place they may work. A highly driven and stressed dog like a collie would not be ideal for either, IMO, although I am absolutely no expert like CC or WGSD.
Click to expand...

This is exactly my feeling on it. Hence getting professional training help as I'm not too proud to admit this is a very ingrained instinct that I am not experience enough to manage (well, I can manage it, but I want to improve rather than than just mask it)
 
Watching and learning from the sheepdog training DVD that the trainer sent me:
36895767_10160450716300431_827284295474216960_n.jpg


Being a happy farm dog, this toy is the only one I have found that really excites him, it burbles as it rolls and he would rather play with this than chase the swallows:
36883438_10160450698185431_6073416453300682752_o.jpg

36791542_10160450698280431_1424378762157359104_o.jpg
 
It sounds like you have most things covered. He’s a beautiful pup and I’m sure you’ll end up with a dog to be proud of.

Nij Vyas is a very well thought of sheepdog trainer and I’m sure you’ll get much of the help and advice you need from him.

Is the DVD the Practicsl Shepherding one?

Let us know how you get on.
 
looks like you are doing great with him, so many positive things, dont get too down with the odd thing you are having trouble with. the way you are tackling the problems is right IMO and it will all take time.....give yourself a pat on the back and give him a lovely cuddle, you both deserve it!!!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top