Carob kibble

[mitch3473]

Hi,
Forum newbie here so go easy on me.
I'm interested in your thoughts,views and ideas on Carobs (locust bean or St Johns bread).To cut a long story short I organically farm approx 20 acres of land in the Ebro valley,southern Catalonia,the main crop being carobs.I am looking at the possibilty of exporting to the UK,carobs in both whole and kibbled form either directly to the customer or via a feed merchant.
The quality of our harvest is second to none,is hand picked and graded and packaged in 20 kg sacks.
As before,any thoughts,views or ideas will be gratefully recieved.
Thanks for your time.

Ian

 

[flyngo]

hi i have a connemara recovering from gastric ulcers. i was recommended carob, so i give him carob crumb and kibble which i get from a company in cornwall called valleyview, and he loves it.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I use carob kibble - fabulous stuff - no sugar very low starch - high calcium and good carbs. It's nutrient rich. I understand it is very commonly used in Spain - not so much here, but getting more popular.

I have a cereal and sugar intolerant horse and carob enables me a great feedstuff to add to beet or alfalfa. Much cheaper than the leading brand intolerant feeds. I did initially try Copra (Coolstance) and that was dreadful - so high in protein (21%) sent my WB wild.

So yes I would say there is a great market for it here. I can get it from some of my large feed merchants here, but it is not commn or easy to source.

 

[Oberon]

There is an excellent supplier to the UK for carob kibble - http://www.valleyviewanimalfeeds.co.uk/.

I have used it in the past and the horses loved it.

But the UK's forage is almost always found high in calcium as it is. Carob is high in calcium....it therefore upsets the Cahosphorous ratio and adding extra phosphorous then has a knock on effect on other minerals.

I can't use it for that reason. My horses never looked well on it - and now I know why.

 

[YasandCrystal]

There is an excellent supplier to the UK for carob kibble - http://www.valleyviewanimalfeeds.co.uk/.

I have used it in the past and the horses loved it.

But the UK's forage is almost always found high in calcium as it is. Carob is high in calcium....it therefore upsets the Cahosphorous ratio and adding extra phosphorous then has a knock on effect on other minerals.

I can't use it for that reason. My horses never looked well on it - and now I know why.

It's for this reason I was warned not to use it when there was grass about and I only feed it in small to moderate quantity to ensure I don't go overboard with the calcium.

 

[Mince Pie]

How much of it do you feed? I feed oats and currently use limestone flour to balance the Ca ratio but could use this instead as it would also give him some energy (hence the oats!)!

 

[Oberon]

How much of it do you feed? I feed oats and currently use limestone flour to balance the Ca ratio but could use this instead as it would also give him some energy (hence the oats!)!

But how much phosphorous is in your forage already?

It is something that varies quite a lot from area to area.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Here is some information regarding Phosphorus and Calcium content in various feedsuffs. many websites say that it is ok to overfeed Calcium to Phosphorus by the ration 6:1 without affecting other minerals, biut an inverted Ca: Phosphorus ratio can result in stiffness and tying up, lethargy.
This is the table extracted from this website:

http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/Calcium-Phosphorus.shtml

Feed Calcium (%) Phosphorus (%)
Alfalfa hay, midbloom 1.24 0.22
Bermuda hay, 29-42 days 0.30 0.19
Oat hay 0.29 0.23
Orchardgrass hay, early bloom 0.24 0.30
Timothy hay, midbloom 0.43 0.20
Barley grain 0.05 0.34
Beet pulp, dehydrated 0.62 0.09
Corn grain 0.05 0.27
Oat grain 0.05 0.34
Rice bran 0.09 1.57
Wheat bran 0.13 1.13


Keep in mind these are average values and may vary somewhat from region to region.

To calculate a calcium-phosphorus ratio:

1) Convert the number of pounds of each feed to kilograms by dividing pounds by 2.2. For example, let's say you want to know the ratio for a diet comprised of 15.4 pounds of bermuda and 4.4 pounds of oats. 15.4 divided by 2.2 = 7; 4.4 divided by 2.2 = 2.

2) Multiply these numbers by both the calcium and phosphorus content of each feed. For example, bermuda hay contains 0.30% calcium and 0.19% phosphorus, so multiply 7 kgs by 0.30% = 0.021 kgs of calcium. Multiply this number by 1000 to convert to 21 grams, a more convenient number to work with. Do the same to calculate the phosphorus content of the bermuda hay; 7 kgs x 0.19% = .0133 kg; multiply by 1000 = 13.3 grams.

Now do the same for the oats to calculate both their calcium and phosphorus content. From the table above, oat grain contains approximately 0.05% calcium and 0.34% phosphorus. So, 2 kgs x 0.05% = .002 kgs, or 2 grams, of calcium. For phosphorus, 2 kgs x 0.34% = .0068 kgs, or 6.8 grams, of phosphorus.

3) Now add the two values for calcium together; 21 grams from the bermuda and 2 grams from the oats totals 23 grams.

4) Add the two values for phosphorus together; 13.3 grams from the bermuda and 6.8 grams from the oats = 20.1 grams total.

5) Divide the total calcium by the total phosphorus; 23 divided by 20.1 = 1.14. This is the calcium-phosphorus ratio if you fed this particular ration. Since the ratio is greater than 1, the value is not inverted. Although it falls slightly below the recommended ideal range of 1.2 - 2, this is still an acceptable value for a mature horse at light work.

What do you do if you find you have an inverted ratio? Calcium-phosphorus ratios can be adjusted and balanced by either decreasing the phosphorus content, or increasing the calcium content. By looking at the values in the above table, you'll be able to determine if one feed is providing an excessive amount of phosphorus. For example, rice bran is extremely high in phosphorus, with wheat bran a close second. By decreasing or eliminating a high-phosphorus feed, and replacing it with another feed that provides either less phosphorus and/or more calcium, you'll be able to calculate a more balanced ration.

Are there any rations for horses that are already calcium-phosphorus balanced for horses? Yes. In looking at the above table again, you'll see that most grass hays (with the exception of orchardgrass) contain more calcium than they do phosphorus. The same is true of beet pulp, though is NOT true of any grain product. Therefore, regardless of the amount fed, feeding a horse any combination of grass hays and beet pulp will always provide a balanced calcium-phosphorus ratio, and is an excellent, low-protein ration ideal in many ways for endurance horses. In addition, corn or vegetable oil can easily be added to the beet pulp ration if more energy is needed, without upsetting mineral balances.

 

[Mike007]

Here is some information regarding Phosphorus and Calcium content in various feedsuffs. many websites say that it is ok to overfeed Calcium to Phosphorus by the ration 6:1 without affecting other minerals, biut an inverted Ca: Phosphorus ratio can result in stiffness and tying up, lethargy.
This is the table extracted from this website:

http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/Calcium-Phosphorus.shtml

Feed Calcium (%) Phosphorus (%)
Alfalfa hay, midbloom 1.24 0.22
Bermuda hay, 29-42 days 0.30 0.19
Oat hay 0.29 0.23
Orchardgrass hay, early bloom 0.24 0.30
Timothy hay, midbloom 0.43 0.20
Barley grain 0.05 0.34
Beet pulp, dehydrated 0.62 0.09
Corn grain 0.05 0.27
Oat grain 0.05 0.34
Rice bran 0.09 1.57
Wheat bran 0.13 1.13


Keep in mind these are average values and may vary somewhat from region to region.

To calculate a calcium-phosphorus ratio:

1) Convert the number of pounds of each feed to kilograms by dividing pounds by 2.2. For example, let's say you want to know the ratio for a diet comprised of 15.4 pounds of bermuda and 4.4 pounds of oats. 15.4 divided by 2.2 = 7; 4.4 divided by 2.2 = 2.

2) Multiply these numbers by both the calcium and phosphorus content of each feed. For example, bermuda hay contains 0.30% calcium and 0.19% phosphorus, so multiply 7 kgs by 0.30% = 0.021 kgs of calcium. Multiply this number by 1000 to convert to 21 grams, a more convenient number to work with. Do the same to calculate the phosphorus content of the bermuda hay; 7 kgs x 0.19% = .0133 kg; multiply by 1000 = 13.3 grams.

Now do the same for the oats to calculate both their calcium and phosphorus content. From the table above, oat grain contains approximately 0.05% calcium and 0.34% phosphorus. So, 2 kgs x 0.05% = .002 kgs, or 2 grams, of calcium. For phosphorus, 2 kgs x 0.34% = .0068 kgs, or 6.8 grams, of phosphorus.

3) Now add the two values for calcium together; 21 grams from the bermuda and 2 grams from the oats totals 23 grams.

4) Add the two values for phosphorus together; 13.3 grams from the bermuda and 6.8 grams from the oats = 20.1 grams total.

5) Divide the total calcium by the total phosphorus; 23 divided by 20.1 = 1.14. This is the calcium-phosphorus ratio if you fed this particular ration. Since the ratio is greater than 1, the value is not inverted. Although it falls slightly below the recommended ideal range of 1.2 - 2, this is still an acceptable value for a mature horse at light work.

What do you do if you find you have an inverted ratio? Calcium-phosphorus ratios can be adjusted and balanced by either decreasing the phosphorus content, or increasing the calcium content. By looking at the values in the above table, you'll be able to determine if one feed is providing an excessive amount of phosphorus. For example, rice bran is extremely high in phosphorus, with wheat bran a close second. By decreasing or eliminating a high-phosphorus feed, and replacing it with another feed that provides either less phosphorus and/or more calcium, you'll be able to calculate a more balanced ration.

Are there any rations for horses that are already calcium-phosphorus balanced for horses? Yes. In looking at the above table again, you'll see that most grass hays (with the exception of orchardgrass) contain more calcium than they do phosphorus. The same is true of beet pulp, though is NOT true of any grain product. Therefore, regardless of the amount fed, feeding a horse any combination of grass hays and beet pulp will always provide a balanced calcium-phosphorus ratio, and is an excellent, low-protein ration ideal in many ways for endurance horses. In addition, corn or vegetable oil can easily be added to the beet pulp ration if more energy is needed, without upsetting mineral balances.

merely looking at the word "orchardgrass" should tell any uk reader that we are looking at USA "research". Best bet is to ignore the lot of it.There is much better work being carried out in europe ,on horse nutrition.

 

[Mince Pie]

Y&C thanks for that, but he is fed 16-hour soaked haylage, and muzzled when turned out. I would think that as he is getting basically oats, linseed and a mineral supp then he needs the limestone as both oats and linseed are higher in P than Ca.

So how much carob do I need to feed?

 

[YasandCrystal]

Broke_but_Happy I am no nutritionalist, but I read it that it is key to ensure horses have a feed regime to give them the ca: Ph ratio. That website indicates that hay and beet pulp achieve that ratio. I don't think calcium intake is necessarily a problem in the UK with reasonable quality hay available to provide it. I use it because it is naturally sweet (used in diabetic chocolate) is not a cereal and contains no sugar or bad carbs. So for my 10hh lami prone pony and my sugar/cereal intolerant WB - it is to me a great feedstuff to add to their otherwise boring diet.

I fed my WB (17hh - 6 yr old) adlib hay all winter with 2 feeds a day which each consisted of 1 large scoop Allen and Page Sugar and cereal Intolerant feed and 1 small scoop of carob and half a mug of micronized linseed. I can honestly say he looked and now looks fabulous. He is a very light build and his coat shone and he remained unrugged all winter. I was very pleased with the results. What is more he was turned away for rehab reasons and he has built muscle and thrived on his whole feed/turnout regime. He is a stress head and had also suffered with ulcers and carobs therapeutic properties suggest it is good for the digestion and to stop diarrhoea too.

An extremely helpful and knowledgeable person to talk to is (her name eludes me) the lady at Valley View feeds - she knows all about carob and it's nutrient content etc.

http://www.valleyviewanimalfeeds.com/thestoryofcarob.htm


Here's Tim winter/early spring 2011

summer 2012

 

[Oroki]

Hi,
Forum newbie here so go easy on me.
I'm interested in your thoughts,views and ideas on Carobs (locust bean or St Johns bread).To cut a long story short I organically farm approx 20 acres of land in the Ebro valley,southern Catalonia,the main crop being carobs.I am looking at the possibilty of exporting to the UK,carobs in both whole and kibbled form either directly to the customer or via a feed merchant.
The quality of our harvest is second to none,is hand picked and graded and packaged in 20 kg sacks.
As before,any thoughts,views or ideas will be gratefully recieved.
Thanks for your time.

Ian

Hi Ian I found this rather dated post re carob kibble / crumb would you contact me please
Spj08@hotmail.co.uk
Thanks
Look forward to hearing from you
Suz