_Jazz_
Well-Known Member
Carrots
- Thread starter idefixbis
- Start date
lisaward
Well-Known Member
well my five go through this lot once a week and are all fine.....
Tia
Well-Known Member
I expect your nutrition lady is fine with her "feed" but I think she may be a bit mistaken regarding her comment about hay.
Where does she get her figures from regarding the amount of sugar in hay, because as far as I am aware, there is no standard for measuring sugar within the hay analysis formula. Since hay barely has any dissacharides (sugar) in it anyway, I find myself wondering how she came up with the percentage she has given you.
Granted, grass does produce dissacharides in the growing stage, however this is generally used up during nights, therefore it isn't actually stored within the plant for long periods of time, and once cut, the hay has negligible amounts of sugar in it.
Going back to the carrot discussion; I don't feed carrots but I used to have some friends who lived in Norfolk and they also fed loads and loads of carrots. Have to say their horses always looked good.
Where does she get her figures from regarding the amount of sugar in hay, because as far as I am aware, there is no standard for measuring sugar within the hay analysis formula. Since hay barely has any dissacharides (sugar) in it anyway, I find myself wondering how she came up with the percentage she has given you.
Granted, grass does produce dissacharides in the growing stage, however this is generally used up during nights, therefore it isn't actually stored within the plant for long periods of time, and once cut, the hay has negligible amounts of sugar in it.
Going back to the carrot discussion; I don't feed carrots but I used to have some friends who lived in Norfolk and they also fed loads and loads of carrots. Have to say their horses always looked good.
Enfys
Well-Known Member
I had a horse that had a violent reaction to carrots, if he so much as had one slice he would come up in huge lumps (like urticaria but worse) and he'd become even more hyped up than he usually was.
It took a feedline expert to discover what caused the lumps, I'd stopped his coarse mix, then his chaff but still kept on with the carrots never suspecting that they would be the cause of the lumps. According to her, many horses are allergic to them, obviously the sugar content is too high for some. I was amazed as I only ever fed 1 or 2 at a time not a whole bowlful. He would even react to carrot flavoured treats but that could have been something else in them, I don't rate them anyway, another horse (arab again......is there a trend here?) had the same reaction to anything with dried nettles in, be it hay, treats, herbal stuff whatever.
It took a feedline expert to discover what caused the lumps, I'd stopped his coarse mix, then his chaff but still kept on with the carrots never suspecting that they would be the cause of the lumps. According to her, many horses are allergic to them, obviously the sugar content is too high for some. I was amazed as I only ever fed 1 or 2 at a time not a whole bowlful. He would even react to carrot flavoured treats but that could have been something else in them, I don't rate them anyway, another horse (arab again......is there a trend here?) had the same reaction to anything with dried nettles in, be it hay, treats, herbal stuff whatever.
_Jazz_
Well-Known Member
Hi
Personally I have no idea where she gets her data BUT being me I've found this ,yes it is American
QUOTE........... There IS sugar in grass and hay............
There is a myth that most of the carbs in grass are fiber and not sugars. However here are some basic plant physiology concepts. Im a plant person, and I really do know more about this than your vet does.
· Sugars are the basic building blocks for plant growth. Glucose and fructose are the substrates for most other carbohydrate fractions in plants. Stick one of each together and you have sucrose common table sugar. Another name for sugar is saccharide. When a molecule is formed from many sugars, we call it a polysaccharide. Some common polysaccharides are starch, which is a bunch of glucose stuck together Make a longer, more structured chain and you get cellulose. Some of the more exotic flavors of sugar form together to make pectin. Fructans are polysaccharides of primarily fructose, with maybe a glucose thrown in occasionally. These can be really huge molecules, with a 3-dimensional structure, and there are many different kinds, with a complex nomenclature (frankly, its a nightmare) based on the type and site of chemical linkages. Grass fructans are called levans or phleins, having mostly or exclusively 2-6 linkages, whereas the fructan from broad leaved plants are generally inulin, having 2-1 linkages. Each kind of grass has its own special kind of fructan, although not all kinds of grass make fructan. [26]
· Plants make sugar by photosynthesis during daylight. CO2 + H2O+ energy from the sun = sugar. This happens continually, as long as theres sun, unfrozen water and carbon dioxide. Being primarily driven by radiant energy, temperature only has a minimal affect on photosynthetic rate. Theres two different kinds of photosynthesis in plants, termed C3 and C4. C4 plants grow only when its warm, and the first product of photosynthesis is a 4 carbon acid. C3 plants predominate in northern climates, can grow when its cool, and the first intermediate product of photosynthesis has 3 carbons in it. This difference in metabolism makes each type of plant better adapted to its climate. Plants that are really well adapted to cold can actually continue a low rate of photosynthesis under a light layer of snow. Examples of C3 grasses are brome, timothy, orchard, fescue. C4, warm season grasses continue to be efficient in high temperatures that cause C3 cool season grasses to shut down. Examples of C4 grass are Bermuda, bluestem, Pangola, and many native prairie grasses.
· Plants use sugar during respiration at night. The plant uses sugars to grow, turning the simple sugars made that day into fiber for cell walls, and energy to build other necessary components with the additional essential nutrients. This is why grass will have lower levels of sugar at dawn, IF conditions for respiration were optimum- if its warm enough, and theres enough water, and other necessary substrates to make things with. Because enzymes are necessary for these transformations, this part of the cycle is more dependant on temperature.
· If the rate of photosynthesis is higher than respiration, sugars accumulate. The rate of respiration/growth is reduced in cool temperatures. Photosynthesis is driven primarily by electromagnetic energy from the sun, and even though water is necessary for this process, respiration will shut down under stress before photosynthesis will.
· Stressed plants accumulate sugar. The above process is limited by any kind of plant stress, including cool temperatures [9] [11] drought stress,[4] [5] [29] salinity [21] or lack of essential nutrients. [4] [30] Think of it as a factory that makes things that require a broad inventory of parts. If just ONE of those essential parts is missing, the factory shuts down. If more sugar keeps being produced during the day, but the factory is shut down due to a lack of water, the sugars will accumulate. This is a successful evolutionary adaptation for plants, as it allows them to continue to accumulate and save up sugar and other substrates that will then be readily available for rapid growth once the limiting factor is provided. [12] This is why we see just a big jump in growth from a light rain after an extended drought. The grass has accumulated sugars in the base of their stems and leaf sheaths while in hunker down mode, and is ready to spring into action with the first rain, or warming days or application of deficient nutrient.
· Excess sugar and fructan will also be present in hay made from high sugar grass. Some sugar will be lost in hay curing, because even after cutting, forage plants will continue to metabolize sugars until the moisture levels are below about 40%. The generation of C02 from the respiration of sugars will make dry matter content decrease until respiration ceases. That is why the length of drying time is a factor in how much sugar gets spent during curing. Cool cloudy weather, with high humidity that increases the curing period will result in lower levels of sugar in the resulting hay. A light rain may leach out a significant amount of sugars, and further slow down the drying process. This is why rained on hay is not considered of dairy quality, even if conditions after the rain were good for drying, and the hay goes up without any mold. It takes a heavy rain, or extremely long term curing to damage protein. I contend that some of this hay that is considered of lesser quality may be the most appropriate for laminitic horses.
· Reducing sugar in hay The Animal Health Foundation funded a study where I looked at the effect of soaking on the NSC content of hay. Researchers looking at quality of hay rained on during curing find that 2.4 inches of rain on legume hays will decrease highly soluble nutrients( NSC) while protein is only slightly decreased. [13] I believe soaking hay is useful as a first aid measure for treatment of horses with acute laminitis related to intolerance of high levels of sugar and/or fructan. I have reports of chronically laminitic, insulin resistant horses responding with improved soundness within a few days. It may take up to 2 weeks to see a response, so don't give up too soon. While experimenting with soaking my horses hay, I discovered that if the rinse water is kept in a warm environment for a few days, it gets a head of foam and smells like alcohol. I made hay beer! If a horse is suspected of having metabolically induced laminitis, soak hay for at least 60 minutes in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, drain and feed before it has a chance to mold. Use fresh water every time, because the sugar will build up in the water. Then get your hay tested for NSC, and replace it if the levels are above 12%. For the full text article of the hay soaking study, click here.
Where I live, very sunny, and extremely dry, hay cures in a couple days, and growers bale only in the wee hours of the night in hopes of getting some dew to keep the leaves on the hay. Consequently the San Luis Valley of Colorado is well known for producing some of the highest quality dairy hay in the USA. We also have more than our fair share of laminitis and colic. An Amish horse trainer who recently moved here from Minnesota told me hes never encountered so much laminitis since he has lived here. After a year, they also started seeing EPSM in their draft horses. Data from research trials conducted at Rocky Mountain Research & Consulting, Inc., in conjunction with USDA showed that oat hay maturing in the fall at my facility contained levels of total carbs and fructan specifically that are surprisingly high, even when extremely mature. I have tested improved grasses from the research plots here that are up to 39% NSC dry matter! Surely destiny has a hand in putting me and my insulin resistant ponies in the Founder Fodder Capital of the world.
Copyright 2005 Rocky Mountain Research & Consulting, Inc.
UNQUOTE
AND THIS
QUOTE............Testing for sugar/starch in feeds..................
Horses vary in their reaction to NSC, and so there are no absolute numbers that can be considered safe for every laminitic or insulin resistant horse. As per the Dairy One database grass hay averages about 13% NSC. It's just common sense that we should target below average levels for horses with glucose intolerance. After consideration of follow up testing of glucose and insulin levels on more sensitive animals, I feel safer with 10% or less NSC for grass hays is a good target for a horse in trouble. Any horse that has acute laminitis or very high insulin levels should certainly be at, or below these levels. Of course the same horse may do fine on 12-14% NSC hay if regularly exercised and kept at a fairly high level of fitness. This is only one of many factors in managing insulin resistant, laminitic animals, which includes exercise, prevention of mineral deficiency and appropriate hoof care, but I feel the most important one. Mine are not the only horses that have had major improvement in long-term laminitis by minimizing NSC in the hay.
Driven by demand in the dairy industry, more forage testing labs are offering tests for Non Fiber Carbs (NFC) or Non Structural Carbs (NSC). This nomenclature is confusing. These two terms are sometimes used interchangeably, however to be technically correct, they are not the same. The only way to know for sure is to understand how the test was conducted, and what exactly they are testing for. Only then can you interpret the test correctly. Beware: feed companies also use these terms interchangeably. When asking about NSC levels in commercial feeds, asking specifically for starch, sugar and fructan content will hopefully eliminate confusion, unless they are purposely using confusion to their own benefit.
NFC by subtraction or calculation.
If you subtract crude protein, crude fat, NDF, and ash from the total amount of dry matter, the stuff left is NFC.
Hence the equation is: NFC% = 100 - (CP+(NDF-NDICP)+Fat+ash)
where
CP=crude protein,
NDF =neutral detergent fiber
NDICP = neutral detergent insoluble crude protein.
This is not a perfect method, because not all the 'stuff' leftover is sugar, fructan or starch. There's also pectin, which is not a problem for laminitic horses, and organic acids and things like glucan that we're not even sure if they are good or bad in a horse's gut. Mary Beth Hall said (personal communication) that a good guess for cool season grasses is around 5% non fructan soluble fiber (pectin and glucans), and 5% organic acids. After this 10%, the rest of the NFC could be sugars and fructans, but only in straight grass hays. The protein fraction can also get bound to the carbohydrates, making the equation inaccurate, but this may only comprise a 2-3% error in grass hay. This may be corrected if the lab using the above equation that subtracts for NDICP, but not all labs correct for this. So this test is better than nothing for straight grass hays to get at least a general idea of sugar content, but falls apart when used with other types of forage or feed. Because alfalfa has large amounts of pectin, comparing NFC by subtraction for alfalfa, or other feeds high in pectin, such as beet pulp and soy hulls to grass hay is like apples to oranges. Not applicable. Beet pulp and soy hulls are our friends. Bottom line: if you really want to eliminate guessing, don't bother with testing for NFC by calculation, and get NSC instead.
NSC by enzymatic digestion This really is a more precise test, and the only one I feel comfortable using for my own horses. The technique is more problematic, so I only trust certified professional labs with a good reputation to do it accurately. There are VERY few labs even offering it. Equi-Analytical, Ithaca, NY, and Rumen Fermentation Profile Lab, at WV Univ. Cumberland Analytical, Maugansville, MD, also tests for NSC, but their procedure is different from the other labs mentioned, and the sugar fraction does NOT contain fructan. The method involves extracting with warm water, and testing for sugars. They put in a dye that reacts with sugar, and quantify by colorimetric assay. Then they add enzymes, incubate for a day or so to break the starches down to sugar, and do it again. This can give us an accounting of only sugar, fructan and starch. Therefore a test for grass hay would generally show less on NSC than by NFC by subtraction. NSC is really a more accurate test for the 'bad stuff', and because it excludes the pectin and glucan that shows up in the NFC by subtraction method, it is applicable to a wide variety of feedstuffs, including legume hays, pellets, and things like beet pulp and soy hulls that are high in pectin. As an example, unmolassed beet pulp will look high in NFC, but because it is high in pectin, it is quite low when tested for NSC- about the same average as grass hay. It is difficult to assure that the enzymatic solutions are of constant strength, and the time allowed and the temperature of the water used for extraction are all important variables. So it's easier to err with sloppy lab technique. The variability also raises the question of uncertainty if comparing values from one lab to another, even when using the same testing protocol. Fair comparisons between different hays can only be made if using the same lab.
Here is a wealth of information regarding sugar/fructan and starch content in various feeds.
Testing by NIR: Testing of sugar and starch by NIR is an emerging technology, and there are only a few labs set up to use this method to test for NSC. NIR stands for Near Infrared Reflectance spectroscopy. It's hideously complicated to explain, but here's an attempt. If they expose forage to a certain spectrum of near infrared light, some portions of the bandwidth will be reflected depending on the chemical and physical properties of the forage. They measure the bandwidths of the reflected light and get a squiggle on a graph. Then they compare to the graph squiggles on a sample of known chemical composition. Then they use complex statistical methods to come up with a calibration equation to determine how likely it is that the squiggles represent the same information. If the probability is above 90%, such as reported by Dairy One, that's considered pretty accurate. It is extremely important that the calibration equations be based on a large population of samples of similar type to improve the chances that the prediction equations are accurate.
I would not use a lab that doesn't do wet chemistry methods to provide reference data for comparison and update of the database used for calibration equations. NIR testing is much less expensive for the consumer, and if cost is an issue, this method is far better than no testing at all. My personal preference for forage testing is wet chemistry methods; until such time that I can be more confident that this method is consistently accurate over a wide variety of forage species. Specialists in fructan have voiced concerns that due to the enormous variability fructan molecular structure, they feel that a separate calibration equation would be necessary for each grass species, which no lab offers at this time. I will admit to being skeptical about NIR testing because I am not able to fully understand the limitations of the method. Someday, I may be enlightened. For now, I use wet chemistry methods to determine NSC levels in feed for my horses.
More accurate testing methods are on the way! Summer of 2004: USDA-ARS Forage and Rangeland Research lab has developed a new method of testing forage that utilizes purified enzymes that will allow separation of sugar, fructan and starch levels. More about this can be found at The Horse. (registration for online articles is free) Hopefully this new method will be picked up by a commercial lab, and made available to the public soon.
Copyright 2005 Rocky Mountain Research & Consulting, Inc.
UNQUOTE
It is a year or so old so if anyone has anything more up to date?
Personally I have no idea where she gets her data BUT being me I've found this ,yes it is American
QUOTE........... There IS sugar in grass and hay............
There is a myth that most of the carbs in grass are fiber and not sugars. However here are some basic plant physiology concepts. Im a plant person, and I really do know more about this than your vet does.
· Sugars are the basic building blocks for plant growth. Glucose and fructose are the substrates for most other carbohydrate fractions in plants. Stick one of each together and you have sucrose common table sugar. Another name for sugar is saccharide. When a molecule is formed from many sugars, we call it a polysaccharide. Some common polysaccharides are starch, which is a bunch of glucose stuck together Make a longer, more structured chain and you get cellulose. Some of the more exotic flavors of sugar form together to make pectin. Fructans are polysaccharides of primarily fructose, with maybe a glucose thrown in occasionally. These can be really huge molecules, with a 3-dimensional structure, and there are many different kinds, with a complex nomenclature (frankly, its a nightmare) based on the type and site of chemical linkages. Grass fructans are called levans or phleins, having mostly or exclusively 2-6 linkages, whereas the fructan from broad leaved plants are generally inulin, having 2-1 linkages. Each kind of grass has its own special kind of fructan, although not all kinds of grass make fructan. [26]
· Plants make sugar by photosynthesis during daylight. CO2 + H2O+ energy from the sun = sugar. This happens continually, as long as theres sun, unfrozen water and carbon dioxide. Being primarily driven by radiant energy, temperature only has a minimal affect on photosynthetic rate. Theres two different kinds of photosynthesis in plants, termed C3 and C4. C4 plants grow only when its warm, and the first product of photosynthesis is a 4 carbon acid. C3 plants predominate in northern climates, can grow when its cool, and the first intermediate product of photosynthesis has 3 carbons in it. This difference in metabolism makes each type of plant better adapted to its climate. Plants that are really well adapted to cold can actually continue a low rate of photosynthesis under a light layer of snow. Examples of C3 grasses are brome, timothy, orchard, fescue. C4, warm season grasses continue to be efficient in high temperatures that cause C3 cool season grasses to shut down. Examples of C4 grass are Bermuda, bluestem, Pangola, and many native prairie grasses.
· Plants use sugar during respiration at night. The plant uses sugars to grow, turning the simple sugars made that day into fiber for cell walls, and energy to build other necessary components with the additional essential nutrients. This is why grass will have lower levels of sugar at dawn, IF conditions for respiration were optimum- if its warm enough, and theres enough water, and other necessary substrates to make things with. Because enzymes are necessary for these transformations, this part of the cycle is more dependant on temperature.
· If the rate of photosynthesis is higher than respiration, sugars accumulate. The rate of respiration/growth is reduced in cool temperatures. Photosynthesis is driven primarily by electromagnetic energy from the sun, and even though water is necessary for this process, respiration will shut down under stress before photosynthesis will.
· Stressed plants accumulate sugar. The above process is limited by any kind of plant stress, including cool temperatures [9] [11] drought stress,[4] [5] [29] salinity [21] or lack of essential nutrients. [4] [30] Think of it as a factory that makes things that require a broad inventory of parts. If just ONE of those essential parts is missing, the factory shuts down. If more sugar keeps being produced during the day, but the factory is shut down due to a lack of water, the sugars will accumulate. This is a successful evolutionary adaptation for plants, as it allows them to continue to accumulate and save up sugar and other substrates that will then be readily available for rapid growth once the limiting factor is provided. [12] This is why we see just a big jump in growth from a light rain after an extended drought. The grass has accumulated sugars in the base of their stems and leaf sheaths while in hunker down mode, and is ready to spring into action with the first rain, or warming days or application of deficient nutrient.
· Excess sugar and fructan will also be present in hay made from high sugar grass. Some sugar will be lost in hay curing, because even after cutting, forage plants will continue to metabolize sugars until the moisture levels are below about 40%. The generation of C02 from the respiration of sugars will make dry matter content decrease until respiration ceases. That is why the length of drying time is a factor in how much sugar gets spent during curing. Cool cloudy weather, with high humidity that increases the curing period will result in lower levels of sugar in the resulting hay. A light rain may leach out a significant amount of sugars, and further slow down the drying process. This is why rained on hay is not considered of dairy quality, even if conditions after the rain were good for drying, and the hay goes up without any mold. It takes a heavy rain, or extremely long term curing to damage protein. I contend that some of this hay that is considered of lesser quality may be the most appropriate for laminitic horses.
· Reducing sugar in hay The Animal Health Foundation funded a study where I looked at the effect of soaking on the NSC content of hay. Researchers looking at quality of hay rained on during curing find that 2.4 inches of rain on legume hays will decrease highly soluble nutrients( NSC) while protein is only slightly decreased. [13] I believe soaking hay is useful as a first aid measure for treatment of horses with acute laminitis related to intolerance of high levels of sugar and/or fructan. I have reports of chronically laminitic, insulin resistant horses responding with improved soundness within a few days. It may take up to 2 weeks to see a response, so don't give up too soon. While experimenting with soaking my horses hay, I discovered that if the rinse water is kept in a warm environment for a few days, it gets a head of foam and smells like alcohol. I made hay beer! If a horse is suspected of having metabolically induced laminitis, soak hay for at least 60 minutes in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, drain and feed before it has a chance to mold. Use fresh water every time, because the sugar will build up in the water. Then get your hay tested for NSC, and replace it if the levels are above 12%. For the full text article of the hay soaking study, click here.
Where I live, very sunny, and extremely dry, hay cures in a couple days, and growers bale only in the wee hours of the night in hopes of getting some dew to keep the leaves on the hay. Consequently the San Luis Valley of Colorado is well known for producing some of the highest quality dairy hay in the USA. We also have more than our fair share of laminitis and colic. An Amish horse trainer who recently moved here from Minnesota told me hes never encountered so much laminitis since he has lived here. After a year, they also started seeing EPSM in their draft horses. Data from research trials conducted at Rocky Mountain Research & Consulting, Inc., in conjunction with USDA showed that oat hay maturing in the fall at my facility contained levels of total carbs and fructan specifically that are surprisingly high, even when extremely mature. I have tested improved grasses from the research plots here that are up to 39% NSC dry matter! Surely destiny has a hand in putting me and my insulin resistant ponies in the Founder Fodder Capital of the world.
Copyright 2005 Rocky Mountain Research & Consulting, Inc.
UNQUOTE
AND THIS
QUOTE............Testing for sugar/starch in feeds..................
Horses vary in their reaction to NSC, and so there are no absolute numbers that can be considered safe for every laminitic or insulin resistant horse. As per the Dairy One database grass hay averages about 13% NSC. It's just common sense that we should target below average levels for horses with glucose intolerance. After consideration of follow up testing of glucose and insulin levels on more sensitive animals, I feel safer with 10% or less NSC for grass hays is a good target for a horse in trouble. Any horse that has acute laminitis or very high insulin levels should certainly be at, or below these levels. Of course the same horse may do fine on 12-14% NSC hay if regularly exercised and kept at a fairly high level of fitness. This is only one of many factors in managing insulin resistant, laminitic animals, which includes exercise, prevention of mineral deficiency and appropriate hoof care, but I feel the most important one. Mine are not the only horses that have had major improvement in long-term laminitis by minimizing NSC in the hay.
Driven by demand in the dairy industry, more forage testing labs are offering tests for Non Fiber Carbs (NFC) or Non Structural Carbs (NSC). This nomenclature is confusing. These two terms are sometimes used interchangeably, however to be technically correct, they are not the same. The only way to know for sure is to understand how the test was conducted, and what exactly they are testing for. Only then can you interpret the test correctly. Beware: feed companies also use these terms interchangeably. When asking about NSC levels in commercial feeds, asking specifically for starch, sugar and fructan content will hopefully eliminate confusion, unless they are purposely using confusion to their own benefit.
NFC by subtraction or calculation.
If you subtract crude protein, crude fat, NDF, and ash from the total amount of dry matter, the stuff left is NFC.
Hence the equation is: NFC% = 100 - (CP+(NDF-NDICP)+Fat+ash)
where
CP=crude protein,
NDF =neutral detergent fiber
NDICP = neutral detergent insoluble crude protein.
This is not a perfect method, because not all the 'stuff' leftover is sugar, fructan or starch. There's also pectin, which is not a problem for laminitic horses, and organic acids and things like glucan that we're not even sure if they are good or bad in a horse's gut. Mary Beth Hall said (personal communication) that a good guess for cool season grasses is around 5% non fructan soluble fiber (pectin and glucans), and 5% organic acids. After this 10%, the rest of the NFC could be sugars and fructans, but only in straight grass hays. The protein fraction can also get bound to the carbohydrates, making the equation inaccurate, but this may only comprise a 2-3% error in grass hay. This may be corrected if the lab using the above equation that subtracts for NDICP, but not all labs correct for this. So this test is better than nothing for straight grass hays to get at least a general idea of sugar content, but falls apart when used with other types of forage or feed. Because alfalfa has large amounts of pectin, comparing NFC by subtraction for alfalfa, or other feeds high in pectin, such as beet pulp and soy hulls to grass hay is like apples to oranges. Not applicable. Beet pulp and soy hulls are our friends. Bottom line: if you really want to eliminate guessing, don't bother with testing for NFC by calculation, and get NSC instead.
NSC by enzymatic digestion This really is a more precise test, and the only one I feel comfortable using for my own horses. The technique is more problematic, so I only trust certified professional labs with a good reputation to do it accurately. There are VERY few labs even offering it. Equi-Analytical, Ithaca, NY, and Rumen Fermentation Profile Lab, at WV Univ. Cumberland Analytical, Maugansville, MD, also tests for NSC, but their procedure is different from the other labs mentioned, and the sugar fraction does NOT contain fructan. The method involves extracting with warm water, and testing for sugars. They put in a dye that reacts with sugar, and quantify by colorimetric assay. Then they add enzymes, incubate for a day or so to break the starches down to sugar, and do it again. This can give us an accounting of only sugar, fructan and starch. Therefore a test for grass hay would generally show less on NSC than by NFC by subtraction. NSC is really a more accurate test for the 'bad stuff', and because it excludes the pectin and glucan that shows up in the NFC by subtraction method, it is applicable to a wide variety of feedstuffs, including legume hays, pellets, and things like beet pulp and soy hulls that are high in pectin. As an example, unmolassed beet pulp will look high in NFC, but because it is high in pectin, it is quite low when tested for NSC- about the same average as grass hay. It is difficult to assure that the enzymatic solutions are of constant strength, and the time allowed and the temperature of the water used for extraction are all important variables. So it's easier to err with sloppy lab technique. The variability also raises the question of uncertainty if comparing values from one lab to another, even when using the same testing protocol. Fair comparisons between different hays can only be made if using the same lab.
Here is a wealth of information regarding sugar/fructan and starch content in various feeds.
Testing by NIR: Testing of sugar and starch by NIR is an emerging technology, and there are only a few labs set up to use this method to test for NSC. NIR stands for Near Infrared Reflectance spectroscopy. It's hideously complicated to explain, but here's an attempt. If they expose forage to a certain spectrum of near infrared light, some portions of the bandwidth will be reflected depending on the chemical and physical properties of the forage. They measure the bandwidths of the reflected light and get a squiggle on a graph. Then they compare to the graph squiggles on a sample of known chemical composition. Then they use complex statistical methods to come up with a calibration equation to determine how likely it is that the squiggles represent the same information. If the probability is above 90%, such as reported by Dairy One, that's considered pretty accurate. It is extremely important that the calibration equations be based on a large population of samples of similar type to improve the chances that the prediction equations are accurate.
I would not use a lab that doesn't do wet chemistry methods to provide reference data for comparison and update of the database used for calibration equations. NIR testing is much less expensive for the consumer, and if cost is an issue, this method is far better than no testing at all. My personal preference for forage testing is wet chemistry methods; until such time that I can be more confident that this method is consistently accurate over a wide variety of forage species. Specialists in fructan have voiced concerns that due to the enormous variability fructan molecular structure, they feel that a separate calibration equation would be necessary for each grass species, which no lab offers at this time. I will admit to being skeptical about NIR testing because I am not able to fully understand the limitations of the method. Someday, I may be enlightened. For now, I use wet chemistry methods to determine NSC levels in feed for my horses.
More accurate testing methods are on the way! Summer of 2004: USDA-ARS Forage and Rangeland Research lab has developed a new method of testing forage that utilizes purified enzymes that will allow separation of sugar, fructan and starch levels. More about this can be found at The Horse. (registration for online articles is free) Hopefully this new method will be picked up by a commercial lab, and made available to the public soon.
Copyright 2005 Rocky Mountain Research & Consulting, Inc.
UNQUOTE
It is a year or so old so if anyone has anything more up to date?
_Jazz_
Well-Known Member
Tia
Well-Known Member
Yes that was pretty much what I thought. I've just dug out all of my hay fields crop analyses from last year and all of them only show the full % of NSC - not much help to anyone who is trying to figure out how much of that % is sugars.
Great piece on the NIR though and the research that the Forage and Rangeland agency are planning to set in place sounds exactly what we are looking for! I haven't heard that this is available yet, certainly not here in Canada, but hopefully it will come. I'd like to know what stage the Land and Rangeland agency are at and how soon they will be offering this service to us hay producers, as it could be incredibly useful information to pass onto my customers who have horses with laminitis, cushings or glucose/insulin-based problems.
Super bit of research; thanks, at least we now know that something may be on the horizon
.
Great piece on the NIR though and the research that the Forage and Rangeland agency are planning to set in place sounds exactly what we are looking for! I haven't heard that this is available yet, certainly not here in Canada, but hopefully it will come. I'd like to know what stage the Land and Rangeland agency are at and how soon they will be offering this service to us hay producers, as it could be incredibly useful information to pass onto my customers who have horses with laminitis, cushings or glucose/insulin-based problems.
Super bit of research; thanks, at least we now know that something may be on the horizon
gokartbandit
Member
Gosh that is a lot of carrots!!! I thought mine was doing well to get through a sack a week.
Bert&Maud
Well-Known Member
Mine gets 1kg per day. Does yours see well in the dark!
emma69
Well-Known Member
Carrots, raw
1.00 cup
122.00 grams
52.46 calories
Nutrient Amount DV
(%) Nutrient
Density World's Healthiest
Foods Rating
vitamin A 34317.40 IU 686.3 235.5 excellent
vitamin K 16.10 mcg 20.1 6.9 very good
vitamin C 11.35 mg 18.9 6.5 very good
dietary fiber 3.66 g 14.6 5.0 very good
potassium 394.06 mg 11.3 3.9 very good
vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) 0.18 mg 9.0 3.1 good
manganese 0.17 mg 8.5 2.9 good
molybdenum 6.10 mcg 8.1 2.8 good
vitamin B1 (thiamin) 0.12 mg 8.0 2.7 good
vitamin B3 (niacin) 1.13 mg 5.6 1.9 good
phosphorus 53.68 mg 5.4 1.8 good
magnesium 18.30 mg 4.6 1.6 good
folate 17.08 mcg 4.3 1.5 good
World's Healthiest
Foods Rating Rule
excellent DV>=75% OR Density>=7.6 AND DV>=10%
very good DV>=50% OR Density>=3.4 AND DV>=5%
good DV>=25% OR Density>=1.5 AND DV>=2.5%
Percentages are for humans
This warning also appears (also for humans, not sure of relevance to horses):
Excessive consumption of carotene-rich foods may lead to a condition called carotoderma in which the palms or other skin develops a yellow or orange cast. This yellowing of the skin is presumably related to carotenemia, excessive levels of carotene in the blood. The health impact of carotenemia is not well researched. Eating or juicing high amounts of foods rich in carotene, like carrots, may over tax the body's ability to convert these foods to vitamin A. The body slowly converts carotene to vitamin A, and extra carotene is stored, usually in the palms, soles or behind the ears. If the cause of the carotenemia is eating excessively high amounts of foods like carrots, the condition will usually disappear after reducing consumption.
The other concern I might have is that you could be feeding too much (in terms of weight) per feed with that many carrots - I was taught 0.5% of their body weight per feed - hay/grass is in addition. E.g. 5lbs for a 1,000lb horse (1kg = 2.2lbs) I am not sure what else you are feeding, but just something else to be aware of
1.00 cup
122.00 grams
52.46 calories
Nutrient Amount DV
(%) Nutrient
Density World's Healthiest
Foods Rating
vitamin A 34317.40 IU 686.3 235.5 excellent
vitamin K 16.10 mcg 20.1 6.9 very good
vitamin C 11.35 mg 18.9 6.5 very good
dietary fiber 3.66 g 14.6 5.0 very good
potassium 394.06 mg 11.3 3.9 very good
vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) 0.18 mg 9.0 3.1 good
manganese 0.17 mg 8.5 2.9 good
molybdenum 6.10 mcg 8.1 2.8 good
vitamin B1 (thiamin) 0.12 mg 8.0 2.7 good
vitamin B3 (niacin) 1.13 mg 5.6 1.9 good
phosphorus 53.68 mg 5.4 1.8 good
magnesium 18.30 mg 4.6 1.6 good
folate 17.08 mcg 4.3 1.5 good
World's Healthiest
Foods Rating Rule
excellent DV>=75% OR Density>=7.6 AND DV>=10%
very good DV>=50% OR Density>=3.4 AND DV>=5%
good DV>=25% OR Density>=1.5 AND DV>=2.5%
Percentages are for humans
This warning also appears (also for humans, not sure of relevance to horses):
Excessive consumption of carotene-rich foods may lead to a condition called carotoderma in which the palms or other skin develops a yellow or orange cast. This yellowing of the skin is presumably related to carotenemia, excessive levels of carotene in the blood. The health impact of carotenemia is not well researched. Eating or juicing high amounts of foods rich in carotene, like carrots, may over tax the body's ability to convert these foods to vitamin A. The body slowly converts carotene to vitamin A, and extra carotene is stored, usually in the palms, soles or behind the ears. If the cause of the carotenemia is eating excessively high amounts of foods like carrots, the condition will usually disappear after reducing consumption.
The other concern I might have is that you could be feeding too much (in terms of weight) per feed with that many carrots - I was taught 0.5% of their body weight per feed - hay/grass is in addition. E.g. 5lbs for a 1,000lb horse (1kg = 2.2lbs) I am not sure what else you are feeding, but just something else to be aware of
jemima
Well-Known Member
I get trailer loads like that of parsnips when we have pigs. I feed the parsnips to the horses as well and they seem to throughly enjoy them.
(quite a lot of the parsnips also end up roasted for family use
)
(quite a lot of the parsnips also end up roasted for family use
barkinghorse
Well-Known Member
William gets 2-3 carrots a day due to the fact they send him off his head!!!
Jess could eat as many as she liked though and she always looked good!!
Jo
Jess could eat as many as she liked though and she always looked good!!
Jo