CC, and a guess whats wrong with him

ellie_e

ellie_e

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So pony was going in for a bone scan today, yesterday managed to have a very short ride as finally our school had thawed, it was deep as had a lot of rain over night for only did 5mins trot work.
I managed to grab mum just before she rode hers to video some of our trot, what do you think? Hes a very spooky/sharp horse so he sometimes is over bent, mainly so I can stay on :rolleyes:
He hasn’t been ridden in 10days, is going for KS surgery but can you notice anything else wrong with him? Would you say he looks like a KS sufferer?

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1TdE2lbTNA
 
He doesn't look as free moving on the right rein as the left, my guess is spavin right hind, and secondary back soreness as a result
 
Update, vets just phoned SI issues, both sides on side worse than the other but I cant remember which one as was in complete shock, he will be having an ultrasound tomorrow on both back legs and feet. Safe to say I'm feeling *****. I did ask about long term prognosis, but vet said it was too early to comment, can you guys comment??
 
ellie_e said:
Update, vets just phoned SI issues, both sides on side worse than the other but I cant remember which one as was in complete shock, he will be having an ultrasound tomorrow on both back legs and feet. Safe to say I'm feeling *****. I did ask about long term prognosis, but vet said it was too early to comment, can you guys comment??
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Any more news e_e? What's scary is that 1, I couldn't see THAT much wrong in that vid and 2. This is how my boy is, shorter on his right hind and doesn't come through as much. Vet's didn't seem too worried though so I doubt it'd be same sort of thing. I hope :confused:

He looks pretty comfortable and fluid in that vid to me. Is the prognosis not good then?

Hugs x
 
Will find out more tomorrow, he's never been lame behind and happily jumping 1m to be honest I only took him to get X-rays of his hocks, as he had been landing funnily. When they said kissing spine I could of died and today was the worse news ever. He's only 8 and I couldn't keep him as a field ornament if it comes to that I would have to pts :(
 
Right. I don't want to argue with your vet but I'm going to say what I always say. A LOT of horses have KS on x-ray. I would only consider surgery if I was 100% that was the issue. Doesn't sound like you are and I would be asking questions of my vet at this point...
 
Sacroiliac problems are not necessarily an issue. Jota had to have a course of ultrasound on his SI many years back, I did the rehab work with him and he returned to Team Chase at Open Level for many years so have a chat with Pixie/James as it's not necessarily bad news. Not surprised that it's not KS as remember you saying that blocking his spine made no difference to his behaviour.
 
Nope, but might just be they want to check every inch of him whilst he's there to ensure there aren't any secondary problems. Totally guessing, but they may be checking foot balance to see if anything is out which might have put strain on the SI to cause the problem?
 
Jesstickle said:
Right. I don't want to argue with your vet but I'm going to say what I always say. A LOT of horses have KS on x-ray. I would only consider surgery if I was 100% that was the issue. Doesn't sound like you are and I would be asking questions of my vet at this point...
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The KS seems to be a secondary issue, we've had the area nerve blocked already and didn't really show an improvement, hence why he's had the bone scan.
 
Right hind doesn't come through as much as left one- perhaps higher up issues - mine is the same and sore over SI joint and may have to have it medicated. Off work with cough at moment, once I can her going she is having further investigations
 
scots said:
Right hind doesn't come through as much as left one- perhaps higher up issues - mine is the same and sore over SI joint and may have to have it medicated. Off work with cough at moment, once I can her going she is having further investigations
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Does she have any behaviour issues? What kinda work does she find difficult?
 
So he's already scheduled for surgery but just now having a bone scan? Was he diagnosed on x-ray? Was he blocked? Did they block the SI before/after the bone scan.

The problems with looking and trying to diagnose from a video are manifold. He is a big, strong very good moving horse and he may indeed be only showing a fraction of his movement there. If a horse moves a "6" normally and then degrades to a "4" it looks obviously bad, even to the untrained eye but if a horse is normally a "9" and becomes a "7" it tends not to get the same attention, even though the horse is just as affected. Same with the jumping - if he's a horse that can jump 1.40 then 1m is not a huge stress for him and he'll be able to do it even if he is very compromised. If he is bred and trained for the job he will want to jump and will keep doing so until it's almost impossible for him. You'd be surprised what horses keep jumping with sometimes!

Also, you have a lot of bridle on the horse and while I understand why that is, it makes diagnosing movement related issues almost impossible because he is not expressing his "natural" way of going. The time you really see him go ouch is at the end, in your downward transition and a few times when he changes his balance.

There is no one set of behaviours that goes with SI or KS or anything really, as so much depends on temperament and other very individual factors. You might have some luck comparing horses with very similar clinical findings but even that's not hard and fast.

All of which is not a criticism, just to point out how difficult it is for anyone to give you an answer. It would be interesting to see him longed on a circle, then blocked out and longed again but you've moved beyond that in diagnostics so nothing would really be gained by it.

Anyhow, good luck with your next steps. I'm sure your vet has told you there is not always necessarily a firm correlation between damage visible on x-ray and long term prognosis. Perhaps he'll be lucky! He is still quite young and a big strong boy. Lovely horse, I wish you all the luck,
 
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ellie_e said:
MB, do you know why they would be scanning his feet aswell?
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We had a horse that looked wrong behind and it turned out he had a tiny hole in a ligament in his front foot. Can't remember what ligament. They did work out eventually that it was front feet after nerve blocks, but it always looked like his hind ones.

Hope you get some good news on your horse.
 
Right - the lameness is v insignificant. He's a fraction off on that right hind.
He's beautifully soft and through in his back, yes he does duck BTV at times but generally he works very well. And moves very well. He looks a really balanced, lovely , supple ride. If that's a broken horse, then 90% of the rest of the horses in the world should be written off too !

There's nothing wrong with this horse, he's just a bit muscle sore. Soreness over the hinds/ lower back is sooo common and does make them appear short behind . Nothing that a good h wave session or osteopath wouldn't sort in 5 minutes.

If he had KS he would be very hollow in the neck / back, be totally unable to work deep and round , resisting contact and struggling with canter.

Sorry but I really can't bear seeing cases like these where the vets get all trigger happy and spend thousands of pounds of clients money trying to unearth a can of worms and then declare the horse a write off. Yet another horse down the drain to add to the other thousands they've written off as no good. I'm sure these horses just need good management. My trainer has so many like these through her hands that she sorts in a couple of months and they go to HOYS every year etc. Don't necessarily worry about things vets find on X-rays / scans every top performer has lots of things that show up. Just try physio/ Osteo, a couple of weeks straight lines hacking working deep with regular H wave then see where you're at .

Absolutely agree to rush off to the vets if several physio sessions and correct work has yielded no improvements .
 
No he's not booked for any surgery yet, vet said before he was seen for bone scan that he could need it. He was diagnosed for the KS via X-ray yes, and has been nerve blocked. He's also done a bute trail which he showed improvement on.
Video I know is rubbish, I very rarely have anyone video him as my mum is normally riding too, but that was just really for me to keep to look back on whilst he under goes his investigation work etc.
I do ride him in a snaffle when competing dressage, but I do find him difficult in it, I'm not really sure we've got a correct snaffle bit yet, but he likes us Pelham which is what I jump him in. I do agree a lot with what you say, I do only feel I get 40% out of him, both flat and jumping. He's always had poor downwards transitions, we put it down to lack of muscle/education, but I think this problem may have been there awhile looking back over the 18months I've owned him.


TarrSteps said:
So he's already scheduled for surgery but just now having a bone scan? Was he diagnosed on x-ray? Was he blocked? Did they block the SI before/after the bone scan.

The problems with looking and trying to diagnose from a video are manifold. He is a big, strong very good moving horse and he may indeed be only showing a fraction of his movement there. If a horse moves a "6" normally and then degrades to a "4" it looks obviously bad, even to the untrained eye but if a horse is normally a "9" and becomes a "7" it tends not to get the same attention, even though the horse is just as affected. Same with the jumping - if he's a horse that can jump 1.40 then 1m is not a huge stress for him and he'll be able to do it even if he is very compromised. If he is bred and trained for the job he will want to jump and will keep doing so until it's almost impossible for him. You'd be surprised what horses keep jumping with sometimes!

Also, you have a lot of bridle on the horse and while I understand why that is, it makes diagnosing movement related issues almost impossible because he is not expressing his "natural" way of going. The time you really see him go ouch is at the end, in your downward transition and a few times when he changes his balance.

There is no one set of behaviours that goes with SI or KS or anything really, as so much depends on temperament and other very individual factors. You might have some luck comparing horses with very similar clinical findings but even that's not hard and fast.

All of which is not a criticism, just to point out how difficult it is for anyone to give you an answer. It would be interesting to see him longed on a circle, then blocked out and longed again but you've moved beyond that in diagnostics so nothing would really be gained by it.

Anyhow, good luck with your next steps. I'm sure your vet has told you there is not always necessarily a firm correlation between damage visible on x-ray and long term prognosis. Perhaps he'll be lucky! He is still quite young and a big strong boy. Lovely horse, I wish you all the luck,
Click to expand...
 
Re ; KS.. Meant to say that if he had KS that was affecting him then the above symptoms would be shown.
Most horses (80% ) show KS on X-rays but a much smaller percentage are actually affected by it, depends entirely on the degree of bone remodelling / if they are arthritic changes etc
 
seabsicuit2 said:
Right - the lameness is v insignificant. He's a fraction off on that right hind.
He's beautifully soft and through in his back, yes he does duck BTV at times but generally he works very well. And moves very well. He looks a really balanced, lovely , supple ride. If that's a broken horse, then 90% of the rest of the horses in the world should be written off too !

There's nothing wrong with this horse, he's just a bit muscle sore. Soreness over the hinds/ lower back is sooo common and does make them appear short behind . Nothing that a good h wave session or osteopath wouldn't sort in 5 minutes.

If he had KS he would be very hollow in the neck / back, be totally unable to work deep and round , resisting contact and struggling with canter.

Sorry but I really can't bear seeing cases like these where the vets get all trigger happy and spend thousands of pounds of clients money trying to unearth a can of worms and then declare the horse a write off. Yet another horse down the drain to add to the other thousands they've written off as no good. I'm sure these horses just need good management. My trainer has so many like these through her hands that she sorts in a couple of months and they go to HOYS every year etc. Don't necessarily worry about things vets find on X-rays / scans every top performer has lots of things that show up. Just try physio/ Osteo, a couple of weeks straight lines hacking working deep with regular H wave then see where you're at .

Absolutely agree to rush off to the vets if several physio sessions and correct work has yielded no improvements .
Click to expand...

The physio recommended he see the vet as after many sessions couldn't improve him any more. She was coming out ever week at one point, over time managed to get him to ever 9/10 weeks before a session but never went longer than that. I do struggle with his canter, getting the correct lead through a trot transition is hard, some times impossible.
 
He moves exactly like our horse behind. He has just had kissing spine surgery. He also has si issues for most of his life and also injury to both hind suspensories . I guess one follows another.
 
Yes, massive difference- not the same horse . Significant decrease in power from behind. Sorry- I was totally wrong ! It does sound like you've explored every avenue trying to get him right with all the physio etc. def see what the vet has to say.
Really hope that its nothing serious and that he can be fixed, fingers crossed for you, he's a really lovely boy.
 
Just to add , because I have experience with this I can see the issue behind. Like ours, there isnt any obvious lameness but the hind legs lack propulsion, they are almost like pogo sticks rather than a push from behind. Our vet says that he would never describe ours as lame but the action in the hind legs isn't correct.
 
Thank you, I struggle looking at him and deciding if he's worse/improving, I guess I'm always looking through rosé tinted specs as I don't have any problems looking at other horses. He's such a lovely boy on the ground and when he's not on his hind legs and spinning I enjoy riding him. I guess there will be some decisions to make over the next few days.
 
I think its difficult to compare vids with 2 different people riding. I know mine would likely look a lot better/freer/opened up with my trainer on instead of me!
 
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