Changing behaviour using negative methods

lexiedhb

lexiedhb

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Do you think there is ever a place for using negative things/punishment (cant think of the word right now), when trying to train a behaviour out of a dog? I am not taking about beating it, but check chains, water sprays, rattle bottles, citronella collars, corrector spray etc? As in you get a reward for the right behaviour, but something bad will happen if you display the wrong behaviour.....

Just wondering............... :o
 
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I have been known to use aversive methods around livestock - grabbing by the scruff, shouting, lead checking for any interest shown. I absolutely want them to associate going near livestock with horrible things. There is just too much risk involved to pussyfoot around the issue, obviously I never let them off the lead but but in the unlikely event that they managed to get loose I'd like to think that there's a chance they wouldn't chase.

I used a different approach for horses, her reaction was not at all predatory like it is for sheep and so I used a standard positive reward, sitting nicely near the horse = food and praise.

For anything else... I think it's very easy to use things like rattles, water sprays etc. wrongly and create a dog that either shuts right down or simply increases anxiety. Someone posted on Mumsnet the other day about using a water spray on a dog that barked at other dogs and it made me cringe, all that's going to do is increase their fear of strange dogs, 'cos every time they see one they get sprayed in the face!
 
Im going to get whacked here but I would say yes in the right circumstances. I use a choke chain on my Dobes for training and if god forbid I thought anyone was outside at night would put it on Diesel to investigate. Diesel is just under 40k and there is no way I could hold him without it if he was sycced up.

The stones in a bottle used in the right circumstances also has a place, it should never be used on a nervous dog but to get the dogs focus on you when all else has failed is warranted.

Ecollars Ive never used but if you had a dog which was a confirmed sheep chaser and had tried and failed other methods I would say used correctly it has a place in your tool box.
 
See I have been thinking- dangerous in me of little brain.

Dex's reaction to other dogs that he can not get close to, is simply NOT improving, this is using the click treat click treat on sight of a dog methodology- so ickle brain cells got going and wondered if he was making the connection with click treat with the sensation of being on the verge of reacting- thus the more he does react the more he should be treated for it no?

I can see both sides, but can not reason why one is right and one wrong
as in treat on sight of dog- good things happen when I see a dog but I am in this just about explosive state so am being rewarded for that
OR
Punish on reaction,ok dog may see reacting is wrong OR may mean dog sees sight of other dog as source of punishment

Also speaking to a girl who has a mastiff who had similar issues, she has now "cured" her dog of wanting to eat others by using a bottle filled with chains, and a water gun, along with "BAH"- ok it has taken her a while but she did see some sort of result fairly quickly.
 
I never treated for looking at a dog, only for looking at me. Any negative reaction was simply ignored and dog removed from the situation as calmly as possible. Took 6-8 months with Dax who'd had zero socialisation, 6-8 weeks with R who'd been fostered with a pack but no idea if he met dogs outside of that pack, IYSWIM. I try to use 'watch me' as the basis for everything and reward for it constantly.
 
There's a few things we use a water spray for with Stan - he gets manic (and there's no getting through to him with treats etc to do positive reinforcement) when the front door goes, and the spray bottle keeps him away from the door (I don't mind if he's barking, just want him away from the door). It has helped a lot as he now heads upstairs when the door goes, and the biggest benefit is that because we're not worried about him getting out of the door we're relaxed, so he relaxes a bit. It is tough being 12 inches tall and having to defend a whole house ;)

I took a water pistol to Burghley with me, and stan got a few squirts for being gobby with other dogs, which worked well. He always got a verbal warning first. His problem with other dogs is that he gets a bit scared and doesn't know what to do so he makes a lot of noise, but after a few squirts he was taking the 'scurry away and hide behind human' option.
 
Yes, negative can be just as efficient as positive in the right circumstance/right dog.
I rarely use anything other than a check (be it ceck chain/slip lead) and my mouth (I kid you not) supposidly I have a "authoritive gob on me" I have yet to meet a woman with a gob/voice like mine when I shout:o I don't scream and yelp on, I simply use one command and say it loud.
A voice can say alot, it commands a different respect I find.
Tonight, I had a rescue out in the fields and 2 horses appeared (a good distance from me) the dog took off:eek: I stood on the spot and "used my mouth as usual" the dog stood turned tail on my second shout, Im not sure if the riders where more astounded by the dog making it's way or me standing in the field shouting out said dogs name (I was loud, no sqreatching/injun styleee excitement) quite frankly I was not messing about (where a dog/people and horses are at stake, I used what method I thought would work and cause least panick. When dog came back I praised like mad (no treats) my mouth again "what a good puppy woopy dog, you clever ickle doggie (big doggie)":o
I rarely use treats either, just OTT praise, thats just me, Im useless at remembering aids and to be fair handling is as important as the aids you use to train.

Where do u live again lexi?
 
With Fred my previous Dobe he was very dog aggressive and I taught the watch/look at me command the last thing I wanted was him looking at another dog. With Darcy who was fear aggressive when she looked at another dog I would click and treat, with practice we could move closer and even meet other dogs without reaction.

I think with Dex he just so wants to meet other dogs thats his overriding aim and when he isnt allowed to he just gets more and more frustrated. I think Lexie you are doing all the right things but how long it will take no one knows. As he gets older and matures he should mellow but I fear there is no quick fix.
 
I have used all the methods you mention Lexie, but it very much depends on the dog. A rattle tin worked really well to stop Evie raving at the foxes in the wood late at night, just broke her concentration enough to get her to listen to me. I always use a choke chain on the GSDs, used correctly I think they are a valuable aid and have to bite my tongue at the training class I am currently taking Pickle to which has a sign on the wall saying "choke trains have no place in dog training".
 
CAYLA- Surrey! do you not think I would have popped him in a basket and left him on ya doorstep by now if you were closer?

So our history of this problem is

1st chap at training (fairly old school)- use watch me, distract by getting him to do stuff, sit down etc etc etc- limited success (dependant on how close a dog was/ what it was doing etc etc)- stopped going to training CLASS as it stressed me which stressed him- not good for anyone- did try a choke chain- he turned round and launched at the guy showing us how to use it.....

2nd woman- use clicker- when he looks at a dog and is not reacting click treat click treat until you can no longer see said dog- like in the book @control unleashed@- limited success again for reasons above

3rd people- stooge dogs- didnt really tell him off- he reads other dogs well- didnt eat their life sized stuffed Lab, but got the shock of his life when after sniffing its butt it fell over!! Continuing- BUT not sure if it will deal with the issue as I know he is actually fine around other dogs.

Its just so wierd/random- starting to think it must be me and the OH, although another woman has walked him with the same results!!!

Like this charity walk- LOADS of other dogs about and he did not turn into a screaming wreck (dispite not being able to go and meet them all-them standing within 10 ft of him)- nearly ALL dogs he did not know, met some of them beautifully, but if he saw another dog walking the other way- return to the screaming dick.

Again over the field- off lead with other dogs- does not bother them, gives em space......

Back to a place where I seriously dont want to take him out, like tonight see GSD a goodly way in front- cross road to avoid, which is usually enough distance- busy large road- Dex lunging etc etcsee another dog- it is literally all I can do to hang on to him, whilst trying to drag him kicking and screaming away- :(

arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh want a Lab pup ;(
 
I think you are going to have a weeks holiday and get up to Aunty Caylas, as she herself has said "she has a gob on her". Then take gob lessons as well as her giving him a good talking to.:D
 
Dobiegirl said:
I think you are going to have a weeks holiday and get up to Aunty Caylas, as she herself has said "she has a gob on her". Then take gob lessons as well as her giving him a good talking to.:D
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Its a toss up between hers and yours!!!! :D

Just been reading other things regarding behaviour now, and that potentially dogs should respond to being told off when doing something wrong (as they would if it were another dog telling em, which they do), rather than positive 110% of the time.
 
Oh Lexie I wish you were closer, our trainer is brilliant at resolving these kind of issues.

For what it's worth with R we started out with 'watch me' with high value treats, progressing into sit/down/paw/speak/stay/come over short distances until all of those were solid. Then we started repeating all of this while coming closer and closer to other dogs - initially we did this adjacent to a puppy class taking place in a fenced compound so he could see and hear the other dogs but I knew he couldn't get to them even if he did lunge.

Then we started working around the other ASBO dogs in the class, getting closer and closer each week until we could do routines of weaving in and out of the other dogs, stopping to greet the owners with dogs in a sit, then moving on. Then nose to nose - allowing dogs to approach each other on a long line, brief greeting, then 'COME' and huge praise when they came back, calmly reeling in if still lunging.

It's frustrating because this same dog that spends his entire agility lesson off lead with other strange dogs bombing around will still squeal and pitch a fit if my neighbour's rough collie dares to walk past him but at least I know now that I have the tools in place to gradually correct this. He gets a little better each time but still doesn't have the capacity to deal with an unsocialised or aggressive approach from another dog, benign ones can pass unhindered however.

Without the structure in the weekly class I don't think we would have managed to get this far. The problem is that when you're out walking, your dog lunges and howls when it sees another dog, the owner of the other dog hastens to get their dog away from the 'aggressive' dog, your dog then thinks 'me howling and lunging = this thing that I don't know how to deal with appropriately goes away, cool' and it perpetuates itself.

I hate reminding myself of this whenever we meet that bloody rough collie and I end up dragging him along by his scruff. :rolleyes: :mad: :o
 
Some dogs just need former control, esp the heightened more "fixating" breeds, sometimes they need to know there is a "consiquence" for an "action" I will generally use a "leave it" with a check then generally take away the check for a "leave it" only. This gets me focus and it makes the dog aware "I am aware" I then atleast get most of the dogs focus.
I don't grapple and Im very calm/stern (this obs helps) immensely. But certainly the more dogs you see (the better the issues can be controlled) even if never perfect, your aim is to get focus.
 
This is exactly what I did at classes BC originally. He never got to a stage where he could NOT react tho- as in for the first few weeks, he just launched at anything or anyone. Then he learnt sit/down/heel/watch me and we could walk around the other classes with little issue (getting him to do summat if he tensed etc). So then we were on the edge of a class, and that is as far as we got- sometimes he would be able to hold it together, sometimes not, but more often not, and certainly NOT for an entire hour long class. - maybe I should have stuck it out- BUT me tense, him tense = recipie for disaster and they were not really geared up for dogs with issues like his, and now they have moved into a Hall for the winter----- dont think I would be very popular!!

Cayla- yep- we have pretty good focus, in that he will check back in with me, look at me if I say his name or watch me- until obs hes going tits........

Someone else suggested getting him muzzled (so other owners feel safe- not cos he;ll do any damage) and give him more freedom be that on a long line or off lead.... just do not want anyone to make @the phone call@

Oh and BC dont suppose they know of anyone in Surrey good with knobber dogs?
 
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Totally depends on the dog and the situation. Don't be made to feel bad for putting pressure on a dog if it is warranted. I use 95% positive methods, but if I did not use that 5% of compulsion, I would be in trouble!
 
Lexi I understand what you are going through, I have been there with Sprocket. He had a shoot first, ask questions later attitude to seeing strange dogs when on the lead, really embarassing and frustrating. But he does it because he is fearful, so shaking a rattle bottle or spraying water near him would never work and only exacerbate the situation.

As you know we go to Dog Comm groups, it looks like you've been too, but I havent seen you there ? On top of the help we get at those classes which have made a massive difference to his social skills with other dogs on and off lead, we worked on finding his 'distance' to other dogs/distractions and rewarding when he turned away of his own accord, not using watch me, but making it his decision to turn away. It gives him a behaviour to do when he is worried about another dog, he just looks at me, or if it is going to be a situation where I know he will struggle, I just say 'lets go' and turn away. We have gradually worked at closing that distance, I walk him in areas where I can see any other dogs, so that we can have more control over how close we get and the type of dog that we do meet, its really important that your dog is not constantly over threshold. Its time comsumming and not a quick fix, but it is a long term fix which will make him a nicer and happier dog to walk. I would think the reason your boy was good on that charity walk was because he was flooded by being around so many dogs.

A good book to read is 'Feisty Fido' by Patricia McConnell/ Karen London. Its a more of a booklet and a lovely short read, but really explains why dogs react on the lead and how to help them. Are you coming to groups this Saturday ? If you are see you there. Jacqui
 
Teaselmeg said:
Lexi I understand what you are going through, I have been there with Sprocket. He had a shoot first, ask questions later attitude to seeing strange dogs when on the lead, really embarassing and frustrating. But he does it because he is fearful, so shaking a rattle bottle or spraying water near him would never work and only exacerbate the situation.

As you know we go to Dog Comm groups, it looks like you've been too, but I havent seen you there ? On top of the help we get at those classes which have made a massive difference to his social skills with other dogs on and off lead, we worked on finding his 'distance' to other dogs/distractions and rewarding when he turned away of his own accord, not using watch me, but making it his decision to turn away. It gives him a behaviour to do when he is worried about another dog, he just looks at me, or if it is going to be a situation where I know he will struggle, I just say 'lets go' and turn away. We have gradually worked at closing that distance, I walk him in areas where I can see any other dogs, so that we can have more control over how close we get and the type of dog that we do meet, its really important that your dog is not constantly over threshold. Its time comsumming and not a quick fix, but it is a long term fix which will make him a nicer and happier dog to walk. I would think the reason your boy was good on that charity walk was because he was flooded by being around so many dogs.

A good book to read is 'Feisty Fido' by Patricia McConnell/ Karen London. Its a more of a booklet and a lovely short read, but really explains why dogs react on the lead and how to help them. Are you coming to groups this Saturday ? If you are see you there. Jacqui
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We have only had our assesment at Dog Comm (due to 3 month waiting list)- but have a 1-2-1 this week (the girls reckon he will need maybe 1 or 2 1-2-1's first, just to check he will stop doing whatever it is he is doing if told by one of their dogs) - thing is dex is not fearful, he is hugely over excited, which turns into frustration/noise when he can not go and do whatever it is he wants to (actually have no idea what IT is as have never allowed it) to the other dog- hence me asking about other tactics.

I dont know if you know Sandra from there, it is her i have been working with, and she introduced me to the click treat thing........ I know it is not a quick fix but i would have thought SOME improvement would have been seen in 8 weeks. Will continue to go to dog comm obviously.... was just wondering if there were other options.
 
Keep us posted. This has been an interesting post. When my brother had 2 staff's, they would lose the plot completely when people would come to the house. Not bad just wildy excited as PEOPLE were coming in. Nothing worked to reduce the excitement so in the end he threw keys at the bitch (who was setting it off) - not to hurt or touch her but weirdly it worked as it stopped her focusing on the door and made her look at him = calm. Thereafter you would be greeted by my brother with a large bunch of keys which he would rattle to make his dogs focus on him. He had both from puppies and they were both properly trained and highly socialised but in true staffie style, would always go completely over the top with people (and these dogs lived near Holland Park so manners and high socialisation were a complete must - staffie bitch even used to go out when my brother would go rollerskating in hyde park. One of the few dogs who was fit enough to keep up and clever enough to not cause any accidents!)

And just to say I do take my hat off to you. I also have rescue dogs (3 staffords) BUT all mine have been relatively sane and not really had any major issues. They exhibit normal staff behaviour which I can deal with and yes, puppy needs more work but it is not the same as having a dog who really needs help to sort him out. I am starting more training with youngest dog next month. Mind you, if you do need a playmate as we are near you - Honey is very very submissive, extremely quick and can play for hours!
 
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CaveCanem said:
Totally depends on the dog and the situation. Don't be made to feel bad for putting pressure on a dog if it is warranted. I use 95% positive methods, but if I did not use that 5% of compulsion, I would be in trouble!
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Exactly this. It totally depends on the dog, and without seeing the dog react, you just can't say which method is going to work. If a dog is reacting through fear, then a negative response could easily make it far worse, or if the timing is off with the positive method then yes, you may be rewarding the undesired behaviour without meaning to. That is the trouble with getting advice from people who are not there, whether that's online or on the phone or whatever, there are just so many variables to take into account when choosing your method.
 
lexiedhb said:
As in you get a reward for the right behaviour, but something bad will happen if you display the wrong behaviour.....
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One of our trainers said to us a long time ago, there are dogs who think 'if I don't do x, y will happen. There are other dogs who think, if I do a, b will happen'.

I'm not about to get into a bunfight about quick fixes and lazy training and one method is more worthy and better than another because I don't believe that.

I do not believe no dog does ever not need compulsion, if that makes any sense and I get a bit weary of people being judged because certain methods do not work for their dog and they decide to use a firmer method - yes, sometimes it is handler error, but hey, sometimes it is that, that the method does not suit that particular dog.

The other day, I was doing obedience while another dog and handler were doing protection. Because I want my dog to pay attention to me when other fun stuff is going on. He will not be doing any fun stuff until he starts paying attention to me, even if there is a brass band marching around the field.
He had been put in a down and I was standing apart from him when he broke the down. My friend had the line, stood on it, and put him back in the down.
You would have thought someone was killing him, he was squirming, screaming and trying to bite her.
All she was doing was holding him in a down position by his collar. People were coming out to look :o
And she did not let go until he stopped screaming and acting the lig.
For a long time, the dog had trained me to stop doing whatever he did not like me doing, by screaming, he was training me.
Now he absolutely does not get what he wants when he screams, even if that means ear plugs for everyone in the vicinity.
Was that negative training or negative reinforcement? I don't know, all I know is that my dog cannot go charging across the field to intercept another dog that is working and potentially get bitten or get into a fight as the drive is high, and he had to be stopped.
Once he had stopped arsing about and was lying down calmly and paying attention, he got food and verbal praise.
 
Totally with you there CC. Why is it some shepherds are such drama queens, I have had more than one that screams as if its throat is being cut if you try and make them do something they don't want to.
I have used some quite strong methods on Pickle, tiny as he is because he is a wilful little s*d , but in the main he responds well to reward methods. His absent owner having had several lectures from and spent time with a behaviourist wasn't too keen on this and wanted to use all rewards, but has accepted that every training method has to be tailored to the dog in question, I'm hoping she will see a big improvement in him when she gets back, and guess what he is not a quivering wreck.:p
 
We have only had our assesment at Dog Comm (due to 3 month waiting list)- but have a 1-2-1 this week (the girls reckon he will need maybe 1 or 2 1-2-1's first, just to check he will stop doing whatever it is he is doing if told by one of their dogs) - thing is dex is not fearful, he is hugely over excited, which turns into frustration/noise when he can not go and do whatever it is he wants to (actually have no idea what IT is as have never allowed it) to the other dog- hence me asking about other tactics.

I dont know if you know Sandra from there, it is her i have been working with, and she introduced me to the click treat thing........ I know it is not a quick fix but i would have thought SOME improvement would have been seen in 8 weeks. Will continue to go to dog comm obviously.... was just wondering if there were other options.
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In case it is I will try and explain a little.

First, if they were just after your money they would have told you than he needed more than one 1-2-1, once he is in the groups you will see a lot more.

You keep saying that Dex is "Excited" when he sees another dog, are you sure this is "Excitement"? From what I have learnt from my dogs what looks like excitement to us is often the dog telling another dog to Piss off. This came as a really big shock to me when I worked this out, it was one of those moments when the light goes on.

he is hugely over excited, which turns into frustration/noise when he can not go and do whatever it is he wants to
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From my dogs when this happens it is because my dog hasn't been able to chase the other dog away that they get change to what looks to us as frustration/noise, my dog is even more frightened because the dog is still there.

These clips are well worth watching, they are from a lecture given by Jean Donaldson. They have made things much clearer to me.

Dog's Body Language Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=0VmWizZueFQ

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=Jw6ONwp-42A

Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=9loVtVheexY

Part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=PT4hLYdd5HY

Part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&feature=related&hl=en-GB&v=M-VNVvmjb6c

Part 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&feature=related&hl=en-GB&v=Rj_8ehodBmQ

Part 7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&feature=related&hl=en-GB&v=B_5J5fAyFmo

It took me about a year to turn Gracie round, I know others who it has taken longer but we didn't have the advantages of teaching dogs like you have. A friend went to them with a dog far worse that Dex, this dog will never be right but he can now live a life without the constant fears he used to. Yes he still has his moments but now life is fun, it was terrifying before.

Even teaching dogs take time to teach another dog, Bertie lived with me for 7 weeks learning to be a dog and communicate with other dogs before he was able to go to his new home, Dex isn't living with the teaching dogs so it will take time.

Also they are a lovely bunch of people, you will have fun with them as well, unlike many other trainers they see the funny side of things and dogs can be really funny.

Many trainers of reactive dogs won't have the owner there because they don't want them seeing what they do to the dogs to turn them round, you are there watching everything and will be able to read Dex a lot better as well.

Having been in your position with several dogs I can understand how much you want to help your dog, I wish I lived close enough to take my dogs there even just for the fun they have.
 
Cyril baby

MASSIVELY taken a back that you have A) joined a forum simply to respond to me, along with your PM on another forum and B you seem to have gotten entirely the wrong end of the stick.

I have never once said that the girls are just wanting my money, or that I am not going to continue taking dex to them- so please do not insinuate that I am.

3 behaviourists (including the girls, and their behaviourist friend) have told me this is excitement- you have never met Dex so what makes you so sure you are right? If he was scared of other dogs would he walk with them side by side, would he be able to go off lead with them around and enjoy himself/have fun?

I have never questioned their methods AT ALL, so please stop assuming I have. I HAVE met them so know what sort of people they are, great people with great dogs- i have never said otherwise.

Sorry Mattie but over the internet YOU can not diagnose dex- you do not know him, nor have you seen his reactions
 
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I will stick my head above the parapet and confess that I have used an e-collar on a dog who had brought down, and drawn blood from, a ewe and her lamb. Not particularly nice to subject your dog to an electric shock, but not the end of the world either - and I tried the collar on myself so I know full well that the shock is definitely shocking, but not painful.

Other than that, with my dogs I used only positive reinforcement type methods when teaching a new command or behaviour. But, now they know exactly what a command means then they most certainly get a verbal *******ing if they choose to ignore it. They get a quick cuff for a really bad infraction. Their whole demeanour changes when they get told off, and it is clear that they understand that I am putting them back in their place and they accept that. If they were the type to react the other way to a *******ing, then I most likely would rethink my methods ;)

So, in summary I think it is only fair to teach using positive methods (except in extreme circumstances like livestock chasing, aggression etc), but totally reasonable to reinforce well established teaching using negative methods if necessary and if the dog reacts in a submissive manner to such methods.
 
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