nemo_
Well-Known Member
Where can I get a waterford cheltenham or nelson gag? I've looked and only found Neue Schule versions, I don't really want to spend that and I only need stainless steel. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance
Thanks in advance
Cheltenham/Nelson Gags
- Thread starter nemo_
- Start date
yeeharider
Well-Known Member
www.ukshopping.com/waterford products has both advertised
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
PLease can I ask why you would want to put this excessively strong bit in your horses mouth?
JustInterested
Well-Known Member
Maybe because they have an excessively strong horse?!? A bit is only as strong as the hands that use it
boneo
Well-Known Member
"Bitworld" have these, and many other gags, listed on their Website,
flyingfeet
Well-Known Member
eBay? There are lots of them on there and some interesting nelson's too!
Out of preference unless you want to play polo, I'd get the nelson for extra steering!!
Also I don't think these are strong bits at all - no mechanical leverage.
Out of preference unless you want to play polo, I'd get the nelson for extra steering!!
Also I don't think these are strong bits at all - no mechanical leverage.
Caledonia
Well-Known Member
It's not an excessively strong bit if used correctly, it only comes into play if you need extra stopping power.
zoon
Well-Known Member
I think Cotswolds Sports does them
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
The mouthpiece alone is severe. It is an EXTREMELY SEVERE bit and very painful for the horse - try rubbibg the mouthpiece across the piece of skin between your thumb and first finger, also remembering that there are sensitive bars between with a bone under the skin with an edge only a couple of mm's across. To add the lift action of the gag to this bit is wrong! It increases the discomfort to the horse.
If the horse is that strong then take it out of the conditions that make it so strong and school it until it becomes more obedient and can be ridden more safely.
A Waterford mouth piece works by inflicting pain on the horse so that it loses confidence in going forward. Eventually the horse will try to run through the pain - what bit will be resorted to next?
What bits HAVE been tried, A pelham with 2 reins or an Uxeter or even a double bridle. What sets the horse off? Is it being hard fed?
Over the 40+ years I've worked with horses I've never yet had to resort to such a bit.
Lace57
Well-Known Member
Evelyn You may think you are very experienced but i think you'll find they didnt ask for your advice and i think youre talking **** I event to a high level and dressage and sj in a snaffle yet xc i use cheltenham gag with 2 reins so therefore you telling me my horse isnt well schooled and not obedient?!
I think waterfords are a VERY common bit especially among pros. I think if bits are used correctly they are fine. If the werent they would be made illegal instantly!
I think waterfords are a VERY common bit especially among pros. I think if bits are used correctly they are fine. If the werent they would be made illegal instantly!
OneInAMillion
Well-Known Member
Any bit can be harmful in the wrong hands. There are much worse bits out there and why not put the bit in the horses mouth that is correct for it. At the end of the day its better not to be hauling them around in the mouth as you would seem to prefer
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
A cheltenham gag is no big ddeal it only works when you use the lower rein - but add a waterford mouthpiece to the combination makes it very severe. Though I was not asked for an opinion others were stating that the bit was fine.
The Waterford has become this decades black - like th Dutch Gag did a decade or 2 ago, and before that the Flash noseband and the Crank - just because someone competing at high level uses them should not make them 'the bit to use' by the lower levels which unfortunatly is the case. Those people at the top set the trends - why were our competition horses of the past ridden in snaffles and doubles - are the horses bred any stronger now than then - we took far more time schooling, getting our horses fit before competing.
I asked why the OP needed to use such a strong bit - when is she having problems, what environment - what experience/ability are they? All these need to be considered. As an examiner and coach I spend much of my time convincing riders that they don't need to follow fashion with their horses but to look at why their horse is behaving ad it is.
Sarah2207
Well-Known Member
Just to add my bit, (no pun intended!)
I use a loose ring snaffle with a waterford mouthpiece, as this is the only bit that gives me consistent control for one of my horses. I would far prefer to give a feel on the reins and have an obedient, relaxed horse, than be in a situation where I have to be using extremely strong hands, creating a very tense and stressed horse, and still having little control.
A bit is only as strong as the hands that use it, and obviously I would not be suggesting that an inexperienced rider use a bit such as this, however in the right hands it can be a very useful tool.
I use a loose ring snaffle with a waterford mouthpiece, as this is the only bit that gives me consistent control for one of my horses. I would far prefer to give a feel on the reins and have an obedient, relaxed horse, than be in a situation where I have to be using extremely strong hands, creating a very tense and stressed horse, and still having little control.
A bit is only as strong as the hands that use it, and obviously I would not be suggesting that an inexperienced rider use a bit such as this, however in the right hands it can be a very useful tool.
JustInterested
Well-Known Member
I do not think anyone 'stated' they were fine they just generally answered the OP's question...what we need to remember is that the OP was just asking where they could find one and it is none of our business really why they want to buy it or how they choose to use it...
I know it is an open forum and I find it very useful as everybody has great ideas, experiences and opinions but there will always be differences
Dowjones
Well-Known Member
OP asked a simple question, I don't think there is any need for lecturing and argueing about the use of the bit when you don't know the situation OP is in. I would much rather see a severe bit used correctly then a soft bit used with far too much force. From my experience I have seen more cases of hard/damaged mouths caused by riders being too strong or chucking the horse in a snaffle, and fewer then those in more severe bits used sensibly
yeeharider
Well-Known Member
Having evented for the past 35 years at all levels I have often found the waterford very useful for a horse which leans heavily on the bit,grabbing it and taking on the contact,this type of mouthpiece prevents that. I event my present mare in a french link for dressage and a waterford for sj and xc, it has not affected her desire to go forward she is very bold and has not affected her confidence no xc faults this season and only 3 poles sj Any bit is as harsh as the hands that use it
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
That is why in my first post I politely asked why the OP needed this type of bit!
JenniferS
Well-Known Member
Utter bull!
yeeharider
Well-Known Member
I Agree!!!!!!!!!!!
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
BorderlandBaby & Yeeharider - Suggest that you try running the Waterford mouthpiece across the skin between your thumb and first finger? - It hurts and for the horse the bit also clunks across the bars over the narrow piece of bone beneath the skin.
I have no problem with either using the Waterford or using a running gag - just not as a combined bit. The other concern is that often the rider that uses this type of bit doesn't always have the best of hands. The Waterford - currently the fashionable bit and is being used by all and sundry - with no genuine understanding of how it works.
I have no problem with either using the Waterford or using a running gag - just not as a combined bit. The other concern is that often the rider that uses this type of bit doesn't always have the best of hands. The Waterford - currently the fashionable bit and is being used by all and sundry - with no genuine understanding of how it works.
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flyingfeet
Well-Known Member
Evelyn
I'm glad you've given some consideration to the form an impact on the mouth of different mouthpieces. However I don't think your conclusion is entirely correction
So the pros of a waterford:
Flexible nature conforms to strange mouth shapes
This bit allows easy swallowing for the horse
The movement on the bars means that its not one constant pressure which deadens nerves
Cons of a waterford
Just one, if the rider saws from left to right a deliberate action, what you warned about will happen
Now compare that to a single joint
Pros
One action on the bars of the mouth, consistent signal for bad hands
Cons
Stabs the horse in the roof of the mouth (especially TB's, i've seen them with black palates)
Squished the tongue, and have a distinctive pinch
Uses the same action on the bars, which is prone to making the nerves dead
Also makes it hard to swallow when a contact is in place
I'm glad you've given some consideration to the form an impact on the mouth of different mouthpieces. However I don't think your conclusion is entirely correction
So the pros of a waterford:
Flexible nature conforms to strange mouth shapes
This bit allows easy swallowing for the horse
The movement on the bars means that its not one constant pressure which deadens nerves
Cons of a waterford
Just one, if the rider saws from left to right a deliberate action, what you warned about will happen
Now compare that to a single joint
Pros
One action on the bars of the mouth, consistent signal for bad hands
Cons
Stabs the horse in the roof of the mouth (especially TB's, i've seen them with black palates)
Squished the tongue, and have a distinctive pinch
Uses the same action on the bars, which is prone to making the nerves dead
Also makes it hard to swallow when a contact is in place
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
I will honestly say that I've not had any problem with any horse using a single jointed bit. I break all mine in a Fulmer with a drop and then move on to an Eggbutt with a Cavesson. When I get TB's off the track they also go straight into a Fulmer & drop and stay in it until they are quietly confident with the bit. I tried a French link on one of my TB's who had a slight head tilt, he promptly put his tongue over it and had a hissy fit - then took almost a year to stop him attempting to put his tongue over the Fulmer. Dentist found the remains of a wolf tooth just below the gum line. Once that was out the tilting went. Bruising the roof of the mouth would only happen if the horse had it's head up high and the action of the reins became downwards causing the angle of the bit to change and force the joint into the roof of the mouth.
I can understand where you are coming from regarding the flexability of the Waterford however the actual shape of the mouthpiece applies pressure in pin points - and physics has proven that when a weight is focused on a small area it causes more damage as the lbs per sq inch is greater than if spread over a wider area. (Stilletto heels can put holes in vinyl floors whereas the same person in sneakers leaves no mark.)
I find it sad that riders resort to stronger bits rather than improving the horses schooling and their own education. Experienced educated riders may be able to get away with using stronger bits but unfortunately the majority of riders who use them are not educated riders.
I can understand where you are coming from regarding the flexability of the Waterford however the actual shape of the mouthpiece applies pressure in pin points - and physics has proven that when a weight is focused on a small area it causes more damage as the lbs per sq inch is greater than if spread over a wider area. (Stilletto heels can put holes in vinyl floors whereas the same person in sneakers leaves no mark.)
I find it sad that riders resort to stronger bits rather than improving the horses schooling and their own education. Experienced educated riders may be able to get away with using stronger bits but unfortunately the majority of riders who use them are not educated riders.
flyingfeet
Well-Known Member
Horses will tolerate a great deal, but doesn't ultimately mean they are comfortable
Just a contact will draw a single joint up and hit the palate, its often the biggest cause of TB's with their heads up in the air!
I won't let a single joint near mine, unless I'm running out of options, I tend to use lozenges, because french links flop around are are irritating to the horse.
Pics stolen from: http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php
I also take this a step further and use a tongue saver on my fat tongued horses, to provide the ultimate comfort. Interestingly I don't have to strap their mouths shut at all, as they are comfortable with their bit!
Just a contact will draw a single joint up and hit the palate, its often the biggest cause of TB's with their heads up in the air!
I won't let a single joint near mine, unless I'm running out of options, I tend to use lozenges, because french links flop around are are irritating to the horse.
Pics stolen from: http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php
I also take this a step further and use a tongue saver on my fat tongued horses, to provide the ultimate comfort. Interestingly I don't have to strap their mouths shut at all, as they are comfortable with their bit!
yeeharider
Well-Known Member
Having had 10's across the boad for my hands in style and performance classes I dont worry about the action of a bit on any horse. In the worst of hands even snaffle is severe I thoroughly respect my horses and am priveliged to ride them As stated before a bit is as severe as the hands that use it