DD
Well-Known Member
time to ban horse racing and dog racing. cruel sports.
Cheltenham Sir Eric...poor horse
- Thread starter ROMANY 1959
- Start date
Elf On A Shelf
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Along with eventing, endurance, show jumping, in fact all equestrian sports that require you to ride the horse. Better stop using dogs for retrieving and hounds for hunting. Stop using dogs, cats, ferrets and birds of prey to hunt with too. Lets let them all free to live life the natural way as nature intended!
You may also be interested in a site called Racehorse Death Watch - fill your boots! There are horses on there that I know are still alive and I have asked them to remove from the list but that would be one less death to shout about wouldn't it?
gunnergundog
Well-Known Member
You mean let the dogs hunt the cats, let the cats hunt the mice, let the ferrets hunt the rabbits and let the birds of prey hunt anything they can get their talons into!
Hunting is natural and nature is cruel, whether or not mankind is involved it will continue.Elf On A Shelf
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You mean let the dogs hunt the cats, let the cats hunt the mice, let the ferrets hunt the rabbits and let the birds of prey hunt anything they can get their talons into!
Oh no! You would need to de-fang/claw/talon them and brainwash them all into living together in harmony! Let them all breed willy nilly! Crossbreed too cos why the hell not! You need to genetically modify the plants as well so they dont have feelings and thus dont mind about being eaten! I mean we all need to go vegan and live in fluffy bunny world man!
gunnergundog
Well-Known Member
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
There are undoubtedly some horrific moments in racing, I'm no fluffy bunny and consider myself a realist but freely admit the moment Sir Erec lost his action I spun away from the TV and didn't turn back until I knew the cameras were off him. I love NH racing and though I wish there was a way to make it 100% safe there just isn't.
Anyone who watched the Festival meeting will have.seen fallen horses get up and bowl along at the front of the field, jumping fences riderles, ears pricked with as good as a grin on their faces having a whale of a time!
There are inevitable tragedies in racing but I console myself that no horse lost in a race ever truly suffers for any amount of time. They are either killed outright or if injured they are full of adrenaline and a Vet is on the scene within seconds.
One of our livery horses broke a leg in the field and had to be held while it repeatedly tried to lie down, groaning, hind leg swinging, while waiting over an hour for a Sunday vet. No horse injured on a racetrack would ever have to endure that.
Anyone who watched the Festival meeting will have.seen fallen horses get up and bowl along at the front of the field, jumping fences riderles, ears pricked with as good as a grin on their faces having a whale of a time!
There are inevitable tragedies in racing but I console myself that no horse lost in a race ever truly suffers for any amount of time. They are either killed outright or if injured they are full of adrenaline and a Vet is on the scene within seconds.
One of our livery horses broke a leg in the field and had to be held while it repeatedly tried to lie down, groaning, hind leg swinging, while waiting over an hour for a Sunday vet. No horse injured on a racetrack would ever have to endure that.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Again, I ask you - ever heard of the AHT?
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
Gee Downton Dame - that really proves a point. You really think that tasteless rubbish helps the case? There is a rather big difference between an injured person and an injured horse - a person can be usually be treated successfully. A horse with a broken leg can't! Same with brain - a human CAN survive hopeless brain damage and be kept on support machines for some sort of 'life' - a horse can't. So I chose to PTS a much loved horse who was kicked in the head and could only have survived as a vegetable - with a respirator, iv feed and catheters. And he was just enjoying life in the field when it happened.
ROMANY 1959
Well-Known Member
Oh wow...what a debate I started ..just saying about Sir Erec, he was such a handsome horse.. but horses can get a fatal injury anytime can’t they.. My friend lost one of her youngsters to a field injury, leg down a rabbit hole, broken leg , PTS?.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Got to point out though if 7+ horses died on the XC at badminton each year there would be huge outcry and looking at why it was so dangerous and what jumps should we or shouldn't use, people probably wouldn't run their horses etc. It happens in racing and everyone is like 'meh'. I find that a bit weird. People don't go out of their way to hurt horses in fact most of us try and stop our horses being injured, yet in racing you're near enough guaranteed to injur your horse, are you seriously all comfortable with the amount of injuries in racing? Would you be happy for your precious horse to run with the same odds of injury? Who remembers the grand national a few years ago when a family home trained a horse and he unfortunately died in the race and they said they would never race a horse again as it wasn't worth it? Heart wrenching.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I think it's petty well known that I'm very conflicted about jump racing. I appreciate the contribution it makes to the economy, the number of jobs which rely on it, the skill that goes into it, the fun that people have following it and watching it, the fact that the horses wouldn't be alive at all if they weren't bred to race , and that they would choose life if offered the choice.
But the fact remains that the published death rate at the race course is over 1% of horses in jump training per year. That doesn't include what I suspect is at least another 1% put down at home after an injury sustained during a race. Eventing has, I think, well over 10,000 horses registered for this season. If three horses died every single weekend at BE events, and another three PTS when they got home, would BE continue to run?
No, I don't think jump racing should be stopped, but in my heart I hope it fades out slowly over time.
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But the fact remains that the published death rate at the race course is over 1% of horses in jump training per year. That doesn't include what I suspect is at least another 1% put down at home after an injury sustained during a race. Eventing has, I think, well over 10,000 horses registered for this season. If three horses died every single weekend at BE events, and another three PTS when they got home, would BE continue to run?
No, I don't think jump racing should be stopped, but in my heart I hope it fades out slowly over time.
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Elf On A Shelf
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Flat racing has a higher injury rate than jumps racing but in the yards at home because they are so young.
BOWS28
Well-Known Member
I completely agree. So many people have such a strong opinion on hunting. I don't personally participate although, i have done. I worked on a hunt yard for a few years and i can honestly say when they were out the horses loved it. Didnt make it any easier when we had to deal with them in the states they were brought home in though.
A horse i rode as a young teenager broke his leg out hunting. Complete freak accident. Had jumped all day, was one of the fittest hunters to be at the meet, built like a tank, solid and well put together and he came home with a fractured pastern. Thankfully, the vets in newmarket managed to put him back together and 8 years later he is still hacking and causing havoc as he always did. Whatever you do with your horses, there is a risk. Eventing, hunting, showjumping, dressage, sponsored rides or even turning them out in the field!! Accidents happen. All we can do is do everything physically possible to decrease the risk/chances of injury. Horses will be horses.
The fact remains, things happen. Opinions differ and to be honest the likely hood of things in the racing world changing any time soon as pretty unlikely. But i do truly believe the horses enjoy it. Whether that's because that is all they have ever known or it runs through their veins, we'll never know.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
I love racing and would not support a ban but I do think the injury and death rates are too high. And however much people talk about their much-loved horses - money talks and they are there to do a job and will be sacrificed to that end. Racing could be made safer in many different ways but that would cost.
bonny
Well-Known Member
How would you make it safer then ?
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I am not a huge follower of racing not against it it’s just not my thing .
I would say to those who say ban racing that where is your evidence that losses in racing as any higher than in other uses of horses .
With racing it’s the pubic nature that promotes the outrage eventing gets the same to a lesser degree.
The parade of posts about lame horses on here daily who are suffering the slow loss of soundness in chronic discomfort that moves into pain in an slow onward progression shows that no area of horse use has the moral high ground .
All this hysterical anti racing stuff is really for people who don’t want people to use animals at all .
Yes racing does has questions to answer but it’s not over these high profile deaths it’s what happens to the sound and half sound ones after racing that’s the biggest issue .
I would say to those who say ban racing that where is your evidence that losses in racing as any higher than in other uses of horses .
With racing it’s the pubic nature that promotes the outrage eventing gets the same to a lesser degree.
The parade of posts about lame horses on here daily who are suffering the slow loss of soundness in chronic discomfort that moves into pain in an slow onward progression shows that no area of horse use has the moral high ground .
All this hysterical anti racing stuff is really for people who don’t want people to use animals at all .
Yes racing does has questions to answer but it’s not over these high profile deaths it’s what happens to the sound and half sound ones after racing that’s the biggest issue .
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
I am no expert but I do not believe it is beyond the wit of man to improve safety if the will was truly there.
I am happy to be corrected but my belief is that these horses are viewed as business assets and are considered disposable. Lots die visibly at the tracks but many more die silently in training or are slaughtered for meat after racing. Euthanasia is not a terrible outcome compared to dead foals in ditches, but I still don;t agree with mass slaughter of healthy, fit horses which is not as a result of neglect or something having gone wrong but is just an inevitable part of the current business model in racing. Because it is a business, money talks and safety and welfare are, I think, sacrificed. But also because it is a business there could be legal obligations placed on breeders, owners and trainers that views the horses as 'workforce' in a business and protects their rights so they are not exploited for financial gain.
Some ideas off the top of my head but there are probably better ones out there if anyone wants to make racing safer:
Firstly I would commission proper research into the effect of racing on 2 year olds. The study saying it reduces their risk the BHA keep citing discussed upthread is bobbins. I can't believe such a poorly controlled piece of research is being used in the way it is. I suspect the conclusion would be that 18 month old horses should not be in full training and 2 year olds should not be racing. That would probably help.
I would also want statistics on deaths in training including the yearlings. In other words if you plan to race a 2 year old you need to register him a year in advance and notify someone if they die. So that any who die training are counted in the statistics. That may stop a dozen yearlings being chucked at a wall in training and racing the one who doesn't break.
And it could be a condition of their licence that if a trainer has an unusually high number of deaths in training they need to be independently inspected to figure out why. The way surgeons are.
And I would want a register of where horses go post racing. They should not be considered disposable. There should be some sort of code of ethics that you are held to in terms of post career welfare. So some of the money from racing should fund post career welfare with euthanasia for unsound horses not fit, healthy 2-5 year olds who just happen to be of no use for racing anymore.
I am not sure who should be responsible (breeders, owners or both in some formula) but if there was a long term financial obligation regarding the welfare of these horses, then maybe that would help. And again if a trainer as a suspiciously high number of horse slaughtered as 'unsound' they need inspecting too.
These horses are a business so they should be viewed more like 'work-force' than pets and it is possible to put legal obligations on how you treat your workforce. So if a horse is bred for racing, bought for racing, trained for racing then it should be possible to impose enforceable responsibilities for their welfare before, during and to a degree after their careers.
Then:
- Lower numbers in the field
- Look at fences and ground.
- Being willing to shorten courses if ground is terrible.
I am sure there are lots of other ways - but it should be evidence led and with a real will to keep the athleticism and speed and courage but improve safety. But everyone has their own line to draw.
I am happy to be corrected but my belief is that these horses are viewed as business assets and are considered disposable. Lots die visibly at the tracks but many more die silently in training or are slaughtered for meat after racing. Euthanasia is not a terrible outcome compared to dead foals in ditches, but I still don;t agree with mass slaughter of healthy, fit horses which is not as a result of neglect or something having gone wrong but is just an inevitable part of the current business model in racing. Because it is a business, money talks and safety and welfare are, I think, sacrificed. But also because it is a business there could be legal obligations placed on breeders, owners and trainers that views the horses as 'workforce' in a business and protects their rights so they are not exploited for financial gain.
Some ideas off the top of my head but there are probably better ones out there if anyone wants to make racing safer:
Firstly I would commission proper research into the effect of racing on 2 year olds. The study saying it reduces their risk the BHA keep citing discussed upthread is bobbins. I can't believe such a poorly controlled piece of research is being used in the way it is. I suspect the conclusion would be that 18 month old horses should not be in full training and 2 year olds should not be racing. That would probably help.
I would also want statistics on deaths in training including the yearlings. In other words if you plan to race a 2 year old you need to register him a year in advance and notify someone if they die. So that any who die training are counted in the statistics. That may stop a dozen yearlings being chucked at a wall in training and racing the one who doesn't break.
And it could be a condition of their licence that if a trainer has an unusually high number of deaths in training they need to be independently inspected to figure out why. The way surgeons are.
And I would want a register of where horses go post racing. They should not be considered disposable. There should be some sort of code of ethics that you are held to in terms of post career welfare. So some of the money from racing should fund post career welfare with euthanasia for unsound horses not fit, healthy 2-5 year olds who just happen to be of no use for racing anymore.
I am not sure who should be responsible (breeders, owners or both in some formula) but if there was a long term financial obligation regarding the welfare of these horses, then maybe that would help. And again if a trainer as a suspiciously high number of horse slaughtered as 'unsound' they need inspecting too.
These horses are a business so they should be viewed more like 'work-force' than pets and it is possible to put legal obligations on how you treat your workforce. So if a horse is bred for racing, bought for racing, trained for racing then it should be possible to impose enforceable responsibilities for their welfare before, during and to a degree after their careers.
Then:
- Lower numbers in the field
- Look at fences and ground.
- Being willing to shorten courses if ground is terrible.
I am sure there are lots of other ways - but it should be evidence led and with a real will to keep the athleticism and speed and courage but improve safety. But everyone has their own line to draw.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Amber's Echo are you talking about this link?
http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=RT&year=2008&area=11
It is the American Jockey club in the link. I honestly don't know if the British version believes the same or not. I just wanted to clarify that. I was given this link by an American who wanted to show me that racing at two was beneficial. When I asked to see the study itself, nothing was forthcoming and unfortunately I wasn't able to find it myself via google.
I have read that many jump horses are backed at older ages (I guess ones that didn't flat race when younger). I do wonder if they are sounder/less sound statistically? Of course if the ones transferring from the flat turned out to be tougher, it could be because the weaker ones have already been discarded (awful term, but you know what I'm getting at). It is something that needs to be looked at thoroughly.
http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=RT&year=2008&area=11
It is the American Jockey club in the link. I honestly don't know if the British version believes the same or not. I just wanted to clarify that. I was given this link by an American who wanted to show me that racing at two was beneficial. When I asked to see the study itself, nothing was forthcoming and unfortunately I wasn't able to find it myself via google.
I have read that many jump horses are backed at older ages (I guess ones that didn't flat race when younger). I do wonder if they are sounder/less sound statistically? Of course if the ones transferring from the flat turned out to be tougher, it could be because the weaker ones have already been discarded (awful term, but you know what I'm getting at). It is something that needs to be looked at thoroughly.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
RE the going. Does anyone remember the bog at the Grand National the year that Red Marauder won? Horses just fell like skittles, but there weren't fatalities. Did the deep going somehow make it safer? A nice squashy landing or it slowed them down?
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Sorry yes the Jockey Club not the BHA... The research Bramlage cites is described in the link. The 2 groups they are comparing (raced at 2 or raced older) were not matched for confounding variables so any comparison is meaningless.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Thank you for explaining. I want to understand more about good research v bad research.
I have been told in the past that although the Dr Bennett 'Ranger' piece is an article written for a magazine, that the research behind it is sound. Of course I don't know that for certain as I've not seen the research that she used (and I possibly wouldn't understand it all without a bit of help anyway).
I have been told in the past that although the Dr Bennett 'Ranger' piece is an article written for a magazine, that the research behind it is sound. Of course I don't know that for certain as I've not seen the research that she used (and I possibly wouldn't understand it all without a bit of help anyway).
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
In the on course death rates published by the racing and eventing authorities.
And in the fact that other sports which take much longer than a race, like polo, hunting, endurance would, if they had the same death rate per minute of activity as jump racing, be littered with the corpses of dead horses.
There would be at least three every weekend at BE events.
Even the racing authorities, to their credit, don't try to pretend that they don't have a much higher death rate than other horse activities, GS.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
That's pretty insulting to a number of forum members GS 😒
There is a campaign going on supported by doctors against school rugby, because of the number of serious injuries compared with other sports. Would you conclude that the people who support it are against all sport?
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Meowy Catkin
Meow!
One can't help but wonder what endurance's region 7's death rate is compared to the other regions.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Your post upthread shows you already understand the concept of matching when you write:
"Of course if the ones transferring from the flat turned out to be tougher, it could be because the weaker ones have already been discarded"
If you are going to look at outcomes of 2 groups then you need to ensure they are similar in all areas apart from the area you are studying - on this case the age they start racing. That is the process of matching - or controlling for other explanations for the differences you see in the 2 groups. There will be lots of reasons a horse is held back till 3 and many of those reasons may relate to the soundness, strength, robustness etc of those horses, so the groups in the Jockey Club study appear not to be matched which makes the conclusions unjustifiable as there are other explanations for the results.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
There is something deeply disturbing about racing as a horse sport, which is that it wouldn't exist at the level it does now if it were not for the betting industry. The idea that horses are being used in a sport with a known high death rate, as fodder for a multi billion pound industry to make a profit from does stick in the craw a bit for me.
If pays for a hell of a lot of nurses, though ....
If pays for a hell of a lot of nurses, though ....
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
ETA the other problem with the study is they are looking at proxy outcomes and extrapolating from those: they are stating that horses race more often and earn more when they race at 2 and using those findings as a proxy indicator that those horses are stronger and sounder. Whereas in fact it may reflect that trainers who race at 2 are happy to race more and trainers who wait are more cautions OR the horses who are raced at 2 just naturally stand up to more racing. OR horses that race more overall and have a year extra in their careers are bound to earn more. Whihc is the whole reason 2 years olds are raced! For they money they earn on that extra year of racing they get.
So there are 2 major flaws in the study from the brief description of it. Which is probably why it has not been published! It is not of publishable quality. It sounds like it is an industry study done for and by the industry and not peer reviewed (the process by which experts in the relevant field read papers before they are published and decide if they are worthy of publication or not).
So there are 2 major flaws in the study from the brief description of it. Which is probably why it has not been published! It is not of publishable quality. It sounds like it is an industry study done for and by the industry and not peer reviewed (the process by which experts in the relevant field read papers before they are published and decide if they are worthy of publication or not).
bonny
Well-Known Member
Did anybody see ted Walsh’s interview at Cheltenham to get the opposing view?
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
It’s what I believe if you choose to think it’s insulting that’s up to you.
Yes the nature of the sport means racing has more deaths but a quick death is not the worse thing that can happen to a horse .
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
It's pretty obvious that it isn't true of me or anyone else on this forum who rides, drives, has dogs, cats or other pets and has doubts about jump racing, that we don't want animals used at all.
No-one can stop you believing things that patently aren't true, of course.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Two wrongs don't make a right.