Chipped toes

[Deelicous21]

My almost three year old lives out, she is on well drained ground, hasn't poached yet, I have only had her since march this year, I noticed her hooves seem to chip near the toes, she is on a youngstock feed with a general supplement, she's in great health otherwise.
Farrier is great and he isn't fussed, said good will naturally wear away and his trimming will increase the strength! I completely trust him on this issue.
This morning though her hind hoof looks like this! Will try to add a photo .
Huge chunk that has lifted up!
This ok? Not likely to cause risk of infection?



Can't seem to add a photo !

 

[Queenbee]

If you want to add a photo upload it to the cloud or use straight from FB if its on there, get the url link for the photo, and post it like this:

as for the feed - I generally would not have a three year old on a youngstock mix - after a horse turns 2 its requirements are the same as an adult horse - I also don't like to pump them full of too much feed when they are younger- its a recipe for disaster and as much as you feel you are pumping goodness into your mare, it could well be that this feed is actually compromising hoof strength x

As for the hoof, yes general chipping is fine, just as your farrier says, it is also surprising just how much can break off - it can often look horrific but be fine, however - if the horse is not overly long in the hoof and has huge chunks breaking - you are right to be cautious over dismissing this as fine. Perhaps send a pic to your farrier too??

There are so many very knowledgeable people in this forum when it comes to hooves, the one thing they all will say is feed for the hoof, if you post the name of the feed and the supplement they will be able to advise you on what changes you may need to consider to help your horse... its not just trimming that will contribute to the horses hoof, its work/stimulation and feed.

Finally, some will disagree with this, and its not something that I am suggesting long term, but while waiting for a new stronger hoof to grow down, you may wish to consider products such as keratex hoof hardener, to provide extra strength to the existing hoof in the meantime

 

[Deelicous21]

Thank you for your reply...
both on the photo add and the feeding...

new owner, she is currently at my friends place and both of us are ships passing in the night so until she is at a livery yard, I am on my own.

I wasn't sure on the feeding! So opted for the youngstock feed/with a chaff. A small amount daily with the general supplement . I do know not to over feed, but wanted to help her feet..

Thank you again.. I try to add photo for opinions x

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Trimming alone will not sort the feet out. You need to add in nutrition and exercise. What exactly are you feeding at the mo?

 

[Deelicous21]

She is turned out 24/7, ad/lib hay, / and 1/2scoop of DH young stock mix with a chaff, scoop of codlivine,
She isn't exercised as she is unbroken , so apart from some in hand training and some shows in the summer.. she is just busy growing!
Her feet are actually in pretty good shape, it's just today I notice this large chip on her toe .. and unless she trotted up some concrete steps and missed her footing.. I don't know how she could have done..

I can't add a photo for some reason! Which has been driving me round the bend.. assume I have to be on a lap top to add?

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Nope, you can do it from your phone. Have you got your photos on photo bucket?

What chaff?

 

[ycbm]

Chips are normal.. It's the way they shorten too much growth. I wonder if your farrier is taking enough off?

If she's three, her feet would probably benefit from being led out on tarmac several miles a week.

Photos need to be in something like photobucket or a blog to give it a url that you can link to.

 

[Deelicous21]

Nope, you can do it from your phone. Have you got your photos on photo bucket?

What chaff?

Dengie Alfa-a

 

[Deelicous21]

Chips are normal.. It's the way they shorten too much growth. I wonder if your farrier is taking enough off?

If she's three, her feet would probably benefit from being led out on tarmac several miles a week.

Photos need to be in something like photobucket or a blog to give it a url that you can link to.

Thanks for your reply, I can't just upload a photo from my phone,
Il ping the photo to my farrier, he did see previous chips.. and was not worried,
This one just seems a chunk!

Il monitor it and see, x

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Dengie Alfa-a

The D&H you're feeding is full of sugar and will adversely affect the hooves. Plus, some horses reacted badly to alfalfa. Good strong hooves come from the inside out and your current regime doesn't provide the nutrition your horse needs. They also need the right exercise. Being in a paddock doesn't cover it. They don't have to be ridden to achieve this.

 

[Deelicous21]

The D&H you're feeding is full of sugar and will adversely affect the hooves. Plus, some horses reacted badly to alfalfa. Good strong hooves come from the inside out and your current regime doesn't provide the nutrition your horse needs. They also need the right exercise. Being in a paddock doesn't cover it. They don't have to be ridden to achieve this.

Thanks for your advice on feeding.. and my management of my mare, I'm pretty sure she's safe from diabetes and so far hasn't had any adverse reactions to alafa,

I came here looking for advice, not to be made to feel stupid.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Suit yourself. Good luck in your quest to improve your horses feet - you're going to need it.

 

[Deelicous21]

Suit yourself. Good luck in your quest to improve your horses feet - you're going to need it.

You awful ladie.

Hope your comments to me made you feel superior.

I won't need luck thank you, just guidance from decent individuals

 

[PoppyAnderson]

You awful ladie.

Hope your comments to me made you feel superior.

I won't need luck thank you, just guidance from decent individuals

Don't be such a delicate little flower. I don't feel superior and I am a decent individual. I gave you the best advice you could possibly get to address your issue. You don't want to listen though or acknowledge that your current regime could be improved. Jesus wept, I wasn't accusing your baby of being ugly - I simply said that the food you have your horse on could be better. Anyway, here's a grip dear, I think you're going to need one.

 

[ester]

Poppy Anderson actually gave very good advice from the information available. I'm not really sure what other help you were expecting or asking for when you posted other than perhaps to be told not to worry and it is all fine!? Feeding is general considered the key to good feet although of course your horses's feet could just have gotten a bit long so she trimmed a bit off. Or she might have substandard feet and possibly some white line disease there already. Hard to tell without a pic of chip and a sole shot.

You'd be better to give a good general vit/min supplement than the youngstock mix, - the received wisdom on hooves list includes forageplus, prohoof, equimins adv complete, equivita. Also exercise just means how much walking they are doing, my lad recently had to have some time off and his feet visibly deteriorated in that time, a small amount of road walking and they were fine again, obviously with youngsters this probably can't happen but can be a reason for hooves being suboptimal.

I am interested how the farrier reckons his trimming will increase strength though.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks for your advice on feeding.. and my management of my mare, I'm pretty sure she's safe from diabetes and so far hasn't had any adverse reactions to alafa,

I came here looking for advice, not to be made to feel stupid.

The feeding advice is correct. Any added sugar, and you are feeding a bag food with plenty in, can cause foot strength problems.

You don't know if she has a reaction to alfalfa, the chipping feet might be one. Some horses do react badly to it.

You asked for advice, you got it.

Why the aggressive response?

 

[LadySam]

OP, nobody is trying to make you feel stupid. You'll get facts here, which may seem a bit dry. Don't interpret them as criticism, they're not meant that way.

Three people on this thread have said that a youngstock mix is no longer appropriate. You can count me as the fourth. Youngstock mixes are to support overall growth in fast growing weanlings and yearlings. By the time they reach the age of your horse, that kind of growth has slowed and their nutritional requirements are changing. As ester said, it is now time for a good general vitamin and mineral supplement, or a good complete (unmolassed) feed for adult horses if you're a bit unsure about managing supplements.

Poppy was right about the sugar content. It's a fact that too much sugar in the diet is bad for hooves. And even if your horse hasn't had a bad reaction to alfalfa, it's still easily converted to sugar (as opposed to something with more protein or lower carb fibre). This needs to be taken into account when balancing your horse's diet.

Poppy, ycbm and queenbee were also right about exercise. The horse needs exercise to create normal wear on her feet and keep overgrowth in check for one; there are also a host of other benefits in developing the overall strength and structure of the foot. This also come back to feeding - it needs to support what's going on in there. Grazing in a field won't create that wear, so ycbm's idea of leading out on tarmac is good because it's nice and abrasive. I'm guessing Poppy was alluding to some in hand or unridden arena work (correct me if I'm wrong). Some good weight bearing exercise in a round yard, just trotting and cantering with you directing with a lunge whip a few times a week to get her moving would be appropriate at this age.

 

[Queenbee]

Thanks for your advice on feeding.. and my management of my mare, I'm pretty sure she's safe from diabetes and so far hasn't had any adverse reactions to alafa,

I came here looking for advice, not to be made to feel stupid.

You awful ladie.

Hope your comments to me made you feel superior.

I won't need luck thank you, just guidance from decent individuals

OP, I think you are being a little bit oversensitive, and I understand - I do, we all wish to do the best for our horses and absolutely hate the idea that we may not have got it quite right. I doubt that there is any horse owner out there feeding something not quite right that does so knowingly. I also know that there are so many people that do not realise that feeding a youngstock mix post 2 years is both unnecessary and counterproductive. Moreover, many people are persuaded to feed certain feeds and especially mixes after being diligent and looking up on manufacturers websites for what could be the best possible feed, they are swayed by claims from manufacturers, and smart packaging... No one blames you or points a finger, people on here are just guiding you on what is best.

Did you know that when buying fish foods for tropical or cold water fish the manufacturers recommendation is 2-3 flakes a day - when the reality is that their stomach is like a sausage - food is pushed in at one end and pushed out digested or undigested at the other... the reality is that 2-3 flakes once or twice a week is far more appropriate and that in general those weekly feeders you buy when you go on holiday are an unnecessary gimmick?

Perhaps take a breath, and re-read the advice.

You have been given some excellent advice on what to feed and what not to.

Personally, Alfa whilst a popular base feed - can cause in a large percentage of horses issues, many develop skin problems, extra sensitivity, itchiness, my horse can deal with a handful twice a day but up it beyond that and he becomes footy on concrete within 48 hours.. As such, I use a grass chaff - no alfafa, just meadow grass and no molasses or oil.

Mixes are full of binding agents- translated as molasses/sugar - the last thing you want to feed your horse whether it be 1/2 a scoop or 1/2 a bag a day, feed bags dont have a whacking big sign in neon stating they are packed full of sugar - most people who feed mixes have absolutely no idea. One of my biggest hates is Pasture Mix - the very name makes you think of natural - healthy - meadows - but I nick name it satans feed! I never touch mix feeds, but will admit that my first pony was kept on cool mix - again, the very name makes you think of calming influences... oh how little I knew!

My own youngster was kept on 1/2 soaked scoop of fast fibre, a handful of grass chaff (because he would not eat slop) and a supplement - I really rate equimins tip top GP supplement. That is all he had from the age of 6 months to the age of 4, the only thing that changed was the amount of supplement fed. At the age of 4 his body was changing so much I added linseed meal.

As I said earlier, feed for the hoof... you could have a horse with amazing feet on an utterly awful diet... don't use good feet condition as a reason to not change to a better diet for your horse, that would be my recommendation.

 

[wild at hoof]

I'm a barefoot trimmer, old horse owner and a yearlong owner.

Firstly it is not normal for hooves to just chip. Especially just chillin in the field.

Definitely look at diet. Both of mine are on copra coolstance for protein, balancer (baby on sure grow) and Alfa a (no added sugar).

It is correct some horses do not do well on Alfa but it wouldn't cause chipping, as mentioned it can cause itchiness and footiness.

My baby went a bit longer than normal on trim cycle this time as I was away, she had nearly an inch of foot... no chips. My tb (22yrs) went same amount of time ... no chips. But not as much growth.

May I ask how long your trimming cycle is? I try to trim mine every 5 weeks.

Also if your baby has any hoof pathologies like flare of wall infections that will make them far more prone to chipping.

As for trim, if your farrier has addressed all pathologies and putting a good bevel on edges I'd look at diet and/ or trim cycle length

Jp

 

[ohmissbrittany]

I haven't had any adverse reactions from alfalfa- I love it as a feed. It's got a great protein profile, so even when currently out of work, my horse has had no muscle wastage and seems to gain topline faster than she used to before I fed alfalfa. But I would switch from the youngstock mix as I'm betting it's a bit rich for an adult, and go for something a bit leaner and meaner and more fibrous. I've had fantastic results with a blend of alfalfa pellets, Thunderbrooks Herbal Chaff (because my horse is an easy keeper- she lost a lot of weight with shipping fever once and I put her on Equijewel for a couple of months but no issues since), and the supplement balancer Healthy Laminae by ForagePlus- it's got all essential vitamins, minerals and some extra amino acids and is GREAT for growing healthy feet.

As far as things you can do to improve the toe chipping:

1. Your farrier can bevel back the toe- I hate calling it a mustang roll because it makes it sound like pseudo-science, but if the wall is rasped back at the toe you will alleviate the lever forces that pry these chunks off. Here is a photo of the bevel on mine- note the bevel tapers to a flat weight bearing surface at the heels.

2. chips usually bother us more than they bother the horse. Walking on tarmac will help your horse self-trim between farrier visits. It's a great way to practice ground manners with a youngster and keep yourself fit too! I did a ton of hand walking when I took shoes off my mare and lost a few pounds while strengthening her feet. Other than time consumption, there is no down sides to this! The natural wear patterns will help you figure out how you might need to adjust her trims and whether she's landing comfortably flat footed or heel first. Which leads me to #3.....

3. Some toe chipping is caused by a toe-first landing. The reason toe landing is bad is that over time this irritates the bone and ligaments in the foot leading often to navicular syndrome type symptoms. The foot is meant to land flt/heel-first in order to make use of the digital cushion at the back of the foot, which aids in shock absorption and protection of the coffin bone. The most common thing I see when a horse is landing toe-first is heel discomfort. Imbalance and laid over bars can cause this, but MOST COMMON is even a minor thrush infection that makes the frog uncomfortable. I've been super happy alternating Red Horse products- twice a week I spray a clean hoof with the Sole Cleanse, and on different days I pick out the hooves and pack with Field Paste and let that stay in there for a day or two. It's basically a spray and a clay with botanical oils and zinc that has natural bacteria killing properties. When I lived in the US I used stouter stuff like White Lightning Liquid (which you can PM me about if you're interested- you basically fumigate the foot with chlorine dioxide and this is AMAZING for bad thrush, I did it once a month because it's a bit time consuming but my horse had awful feet when her padded shoes came off) and a topical antibiotic cream that you can't get here. But now that it's minor/under-control Red Horse stuff works great so far!

You're not stupid, but just in case you've never seen the inside of a hoof, here is a side view. You can see all the cushion is at the back of the foot, whereas nearer the toe in a domestic horse, you're lucky to have half an inch of tissue between the bone and the ground. This is why landing toe first should be avoided as much as possible by helping the horse use the back of the foot. The toe chipping may be a symptom of this.

If you can post some hoof pictures I'm happy to give more detailed advice. Most helpful are side-on lateral shots to show the angles, and a solar view that is well lit to see the structures/concavity/potential trim issues. What I've posted is an "oblique" view which is better for looking at changes in concavity and wear patterns, but also useful to see the toe bevel.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Fabulous advice from everyone.

 

[ester]

I do want to add that I don't think anyone thinks that alfalfa is the devil incarnate, probably the majority of horses get on just fine with it but that some don't is worthy of consideration if there is an issue. Obviously if there are no issues no need to change anything

 

[sjp1]

Probably just wants a bit less toe - chipping I think is absolutely normal until the horse has its foot where it needs it

 

[FfionWinnie]

I have a pony that always chipped her own feet off and never needed trimmed prior to being broken. I didn't think there was much chance of her working barefoot however her feet are fantastic and she keeps up with the rest doing about 70km a week on rough tracks and tarmac without a lame step.

 

[sjp1]

I have a pony that always chipped her own feet off and never needed trimmed prior to being broken. I didn't think there was much chance of her working barefoot however her feet are fantastic and she keeps up with the rest doing about 70km a week on rough tracks and tarmac without a lame step.

There you go - I personally wouldn't worry about chipping - there are some barefoot trimmers who don't worry about horses chipping their feet. The horse needs the foot it needs and generally sorts it out for themselves if they are allowed to and not micro managed. Far better that than having a pretty trimmed foot that is sore - in my humble opinion!!