CIC's and Tina Cook H&H Comment

connie1288

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I thought this article made very interesting reading re all our safety debates on here, and i agree with so many of her points.
I can understand why course designers feel the need to give us as many have called them mini badminton fences, IMO it is not just for the rider to have the feel of doing what the big guns do but also that a horse has seen fences and questions of similar design but at much lower levels with less height and technicality.
Tina also goes on to express her worries about CCI's and CIC's becoming very much the same, especially when we hear that Burghley is to be made shorter.

"Will we see more riders setting out too fast xc, taking a chance over the shortened distances? No wonder some horse finish tired."

I have done this, in a JRN, got time penalties for going too fast and learnt my lesson.

Also having spoken to a friend doing CIC** at Brigstock, they are showjumping after xc, at Burnham Market CIC** they did xc last as did Knaptoft CIC* last year. Surely when these are classes designed for qualification results they should have to run under the same format? It seems slightly crazy to me that they dont, I have enough trouble showjumping Tink before xc, let alone after, is it right that I can qualify for higher levels by picking which events I go by which order they run!!

Sorry ramblings for the morning, its dangerous giving me late dressage times, yes i am eventing at Brigstock today but dont have to leave till 11!!!

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kerilli

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yes, very interesting. i can see why Capt Mark Phillipps is going for the shorter distance (he has a theory about horses hitting a 'wall' of exhaustion at 10 mins ish, iirc).
it's good to have smaller versions of certain types of fences at the lower levels (drops, quarries, fences where horses learn to balance themselves etc) but i don't like small versions of certain technical fences at the lower levels. even though it's small, it can still be a totally unreasonable question. i've been told about a bounce of skinnies on an unaff 2'6" course recently - which prompted lots of complaints and was removed, i think. the "off a step at an angle and curving line to a skinny" on an Intro course is also shocking imho.
i totally disagree with her point about riding skinnies improving xc riding!
i agree with you about the different CIC formats, very big difference between doing sj before and after xc.
 

LEC

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I will be very interested to hear about the differences between the CIC and CCI3* at Bramham. Realistically how can there be much difference only perhaps in distance and jumping efforts?
The whole CIC and CCI needs a shake up. I have not yet seen a single CIC run in one day. Some I have seen take 3 days! Just crazy.
 

Eventerlad15

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Yeah, I agree. I think, looking back at old Badminton footage, horses jumped much cleaner then, over the big fences where it was 'shi* Kick!!!' rather than slow, accurate, scrape over the fence-ohh horses lacks scope now!

I think the 'signiture' fences need to be brought back-as Tina says, and as many others have said-bring back some rider-frightners.
 

BBs

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Showing my ignorance here, but in the good old days... when roads/tracks and steeple chase was used, what was the time limit on the xc?
Badminton ran further than 10mins Im sure? For a start the course went right out to Luckington Lane.
Now horses dont have to do the first bit, why can they no longer go further than 10 minutes? surely they should be fresher? or are ppl not preparing their horses as well ie getting them as fit? Or are they saying WB’s cant gallop for longer than 10 minutes?
 

punk

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Absolutely agree with you Kerilli!!!!!!!!!

Especially about some CIC's having show-jumping before and some after cross-country
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!! Very different test IMO.

Another thing that has always puzzled me is the 'optimum time'. Why can't TD adjust the time to suit terrain and conditions? Anyone who events regularly knows that there are some 'easy' and some 'difficult' courses to make the time on. On the difficult ones, you see people riding at crazy speeds, knowing they can pull up quite a few places if they get inside the time!!!!!
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On other courses, the time is so easy that the majority saunter round and get inside.

Ok, it might be difficult to judge in the first year, but surely adjustments should be able to be made by a qualified person, once they see how it rides - especially at the lower levels.

Perhaps should have mentioned this before?!!!!!! (Has letter been sent yet?!!!!!!!!!!!)
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kerilli

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4* xc time used to be about 12 mins iirc, in the old days with roads and tracks.

punk, it is always wheeled (although how tightly it is wheeled can make a huge difference obv) and time calculated accordingly (mpm appropriate to that level.) so, anywhere flat will have an easyish time, anywhere hilly like Gatcombe will have a fiendishly difficult time, more or less. very tight wheeling obv makes time harder.
i've thought for a long time that the optimum time should be alterable according to ground conditions though - if it is wet, deep, slippery, lengthen the time, if going is perfect/firm then shorten the time. they can do this after the first few have gone in the sj, so why not on the xc?

letter has been sent to a few people but i'm still tweaking it!... might add what i've just written actually!
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Gamebird

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[ QUOTE ]

The whole CIC and CCI needs a shake up. I have not yet seen a single CIC run in one day. Some I have seen take 3 days! Just crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did Hutton CIC* last year all in a single day. They ran XC then SJing in reverse order of placings. It really gave the competition an edge (the leader after XC had 4 down iirc) and made for a much more interesting day, the final results could be announced as they went along (like at Badminton etc.) and my horse SJed no worse for having already been XC.

They followed the SJing immediately with a mounted prize-giving for the top ten which also added to the 'occasion'.
 

punk

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Gamebird - we did that one too and I agree - it did add to the occasion!!
I did notice that there were quite a few horses that had totally switched off, or were mega tired and it made for some horrendous SJ rounds to watch!! Maybe because they ran the SJ immediately afterr x-c, and as it was in reverse order, some people had only just finished their (not so good ) X-C and had to go straight to SJ!!
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punk

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Kerilli - my point is that, if you have hilly terrain (like we do in Scotland!!), surely you don't really want people to TRY to ride as fast, especially downhill, as they would on the flat, - especially at the lower levels. Even going uphill (take Burgie or Blair for example) - is it reasonable to expect even a fit Thoroughbred to be able to maintain the optimum speed
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!!!?

If the time is the same as for a flat event, people will try for it, whether it is safe to do so or not!!
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punk

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Sorry Marymoo - just realised I sort of hijacked you post!! Although it is relevant to what you were saying about picking your courses for qualifications etc!!!

For instance, the Weston 1* time is not at all difficult to make compared to some!!!
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kerilli

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punk, i see what you mean, but there will always be those who try to go very fast to make up places, sometimes when they don't know any better, sometimes when they are really experienced and do know better (a certain top rider at the Olympics, anyone?!)
i was thinking more of events like Badders this year when so many made the time. the xc is, traditionally, supposed to have more of an influence on the final placings than the dressage, and in order to do so, either it has to be testing obstacle-wise, or a pretty tight time.
 

punk

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Totally agree at that level!!!!!!! I suppose it is a very difficult question.

I do know that some younger riders find it confusing though - they get time faults at Intro one week, so speed up a bit the next and get 'too fast time faults'. Or, the other way round and get time faults having slowed down. Depends on the person measuring the course to a great extent, but the person going first on an Intro or PN course that they have not done before generally does not know if they will get time faults or not, even if they are going at the pace they have been taught to do.

Don't suppose there is really anything to be done, EXCEPT your great idea of adjusting the time after a few competitors have ridden it at a good speed and rhythm.

Even that is fraught with problems, so I'm going to shut up now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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fingers_crossed

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I think as per the comment above the change in courses is influenced by the type of horses participating rather than training/choosing horses to match the original job description.
 

MissDeMeena

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I'm (as i'm sure others are too) very greatfull to Bramham for putting on this CIC*** at such short notice..
But, it's following exactly the same format as the CCI..
ie, we both trot up, then dressage will take place on Thurs and Fri.. XC on Sat, then SJing on Sunday..
 
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