Clicker training: mugging between click and treat - help!

[soloequestrian]

I've been using clicker training with my yearling. In the box, it is great - I click and then chuck the treat into her feed bowl, so we have no mugging issues. She will pick up all four feet, back up and move over to hand signals. All lovely. I also want to use the technique for things like leading and loading. I've been managing okay, but have the problem that during these activities, the treat has to come from my hand and that means that she tends to get a bit pushy between the click and the treat. I then don't want to not give the treat because she obviously got the click for some good behaviour, but the treat is then reinforcing the mugging.... Any suggestions? I can't come up with a reliable enough reward that isn't food - she isn't that bothered about scratches. Perhaps I need to have the treats more readily available - my hand always seems to get stuck in my pocked at the crucial moment.
Anyway, feedback would be great and also any ideas for games that you play with your youngsters - she hates just going for a little walk but loves things like investigating the trailer!

 

[Amicus]

I really recommend Ben Harts book on clicker training horses as it deals really well with all sorts of clicker training issues with horses but basically it seems fairly key with horses that you teach them early a click means 'that's good, keep going' but doesn't always mean you get a treat. Also teaching a behavior like holding her head nicely or not looking at you and then expecting this behavior before you ever give her a treat. You also have to be prepared (in my experiences) to go through a tantrum stage when the horse is learning to accept he/she can't always earn a treat. Using something like a bumbag can make it simpler to understand when treats arn't or are available. The other thing i've found important is some horses need high value treats to work at all and some get so exciting by things like polos that they can't seem to focus on learning but it sounds like you've found a balance for your yearling.

As for useful things to teach; farrier leg holds, standing at a mounting block, moving sideways nicely to be positioned for a gate, targeting (this can progress to going to a target or fetching a target) anything that might be useful for the future. Maybe she'd also like pole mazes or you could teach a really good stand and wait or ground tying.

I don't use clicker training very much at the moment but if I have a specific issue with my gelding I do find it really useful and very good fun!

 

[thewonderhorse]

Personally i think that clicker training and treats for a horse is a bad idea. I think that horses should learn to be polite and get a pat and a 'good lad/good girl' when doing something right but i think that treats are a bad idea. Good luck with her though - i love youngsters

 

[fburton]

Why are treats a bad idea? There is always risk of teaching undesirable behaviours inadvertently or through lack of care or awareness, and this is especially true where food is concerned because it is a powerful motivator for horses. However, I believe it is a useful tool to have in one's toolbox.

 

[Morgan123]

Hello,
a friend and I were discussing clicker trianing with agressive horses the other day (not that yours is agressive, but the answer might help!). she was saying she'd seen several agressive horses turned around by clicker training but the FIRST thing you teach them is to turn their head away from you. I think this concept of politeness might be useful to you? Could you try teaching him to turn his head away, and possibly a 'move back' to follow that up?

Agree Ben HArt's books are GREAT and there are lots of useful videos online too. I recently found something called eponaTV whihc is basically like netflix for horse programmes, it's like £3.99 a month and there's some clicker training stuff on there if you're interested.

I also wondered whether you're over-treating maybe? Is he getting a treat every click? If so you don't have to do this - the point of the click is that they know it means they did well, so it elicits the same (or similar) physiological response in making them feel good and letting them know they did right. Eventually you shouldn't really need to do many treats at all.

I've found it's made a MASSIVE difference to my nervous horse, he changes completely as soon as the clicker comes out - it's like he's an enthusiastic kid at school going OMG OMG WHAT CAN I DO FOR YOU rather than 'oh god what are you going to make me do today' which is his normal point of view ;-).

I'm now clicker training my new cat! She likes it too.

 

[Ladyinred]

QUOTE=thewonderhorse;12576050]Personally i think that clicker training and treats for a horse is a bad idea. I think that horses should learn to be polite and get a pat and a 'good lad/good girl' when doing something right but i think that treats are a bad idea. Good luck with her though - i love youngsters [/QUOTE]

As Amicus says above, if you instill the basics right at he beginning, as taught by Ben Hart, then mugging will never be a problem. You do start with a treat for every click but it is supposed to progress beyond that to a treat every now and then and a sratch or pat in the interim.

 

[Kaylum]

You need to teach manners. Which is when the wait patiently and you say manners. Unless they stand patiently they don't get a treat. Plus you should click and not always treat as said above x

 

[canteron]

You need to teach manners. Which is when the wait patiently and you say manners. Unless they stand patiently they don't get a treat. Plus you should click and not always treat as said above x

This, is correct. The first thing you teach is the waiting. Do it over the stable door so you can move away if they start mugging. Stand with your arms crossed, horse on one side, you one the other, as soon as they turn their head away, click and treat. It is couter-intuitive but teaches the horse not to mug. I loved Hannah Dawsons (Hannah Dawson Equine) videos they are very clear and step by step and clearly show what can go wrong.

But the thing with Clicker, it to make it your own. I use it now for teaching new behaviours - like getting the perfect uphill canter or travers. And also for reinforcing old behaviours - I like my bargy horse to take a step back whenever I go into her stable.

 

[pennyturner]

You need to teach manners. Which is when the wait patiently and you say manners. Unless they stand patiently they don't get a treat. Plus you should click and not always treat as said above x

Common sense.

Even better; don't use treats at all. I dread to think what my ponies would be like if they thought we were mobile polo dispensers!

 

[Brightbay]

I do agree with the people above who are staying - before anything else - you should teach the horse how you expect them to behave around food (and I believe you should teach this to every horse, so you don't have to worry how they'll behave when there are people other than you around who may well have food on them ).

However there's another very important aspect involved with training using food - and that's your attention to the horse's emotional state. Horses get very motivated indeed when you train using food (which is why some people are afraid of using it in training - they haven't been shown how to manage this aspect of it). The horse should learn (a) how to take a food reward from you gently and politely, (b) that they should maintain a safe distance (no noses in pockets or hand sniffing) and (c) how to remain calm around very tasty and distracting food. I actually don't train horses to turn their heads away from me - instead I reward them for standing in a position I call "at ease" - I don't want them holding a rigid position in the hope they'll get a reward, I like them knowing that, during a training session, they can relax beside me. Part and parcel of this is the horse understanding that they won't be told off for not getting it quite right, but that they will be rewarded for doing the right thing... a youngster, just like a human child, doesn't have a huge amount of self control, and they can get VERY enthusiastic. For that reason, it's often a good idea to set up the training so that they start off learning the "at ease" position when they're in a stable and I'm outside, or when they're one side of a gate or barrier and I'm the other
The other very very important thing is the introduction of "cues" for behaviours you teach. This means that the horse knows (a) exactly when the green light is on to earn rewards - the rest of the time they can relax and not run frantically through their range of behaviours in the hope there might be a reward and (b) that when they see or hear a cue, doing the behaviour will always get a reward. So if you teach "backing away", in the early stages the horse will be happily backing away every time they see you. That's so exciting when you start clicker training! Your horse has learned something so quickly, and they're *volunteering* to do stuff rather than having to be chivvied! But it's not ideal longer term - sometimes you want your horse to come forward, sometimes you want them to stand still (or "at ease")... so you need a "cue" that says "now, if you go back you will be rewarded" - and the horse knows if you haven't given the cue, there's no advantage to backing up as there's no reward available. Cues are the key to reducing frustration, increasing relaxation and stopping the mugging

So - two things to do... Make sure you have clear cues on all the behaviours you're training, and train "at ease" along with polite food taking.

Best resource for this (and you need resources - you would get a trainer to help if you wanted to work on flatwork, clicker training has just the same need for external input on training skills ) is either the Hannah Dawson Connection Training, or the wonderful videos from Peggy Hogan who specialises in issues with mugging and polite food behaviour http://clickertraininghorses.wordpress.com/2014/07/23/what-can-the-horse-give-you-now/

 

[canteron]

Common sense.

Even better; don't use treats at all. I dread to think what my ponies would be like if they thought we were mobile polo dispensers!

Of course they need to be used in an intelligent way and if you can't be bothered to research then surely you shouldn't use then
m and each to their own and if you are happy in your ignorance bubble then so be it.

 

[fburton]

A bit harsh, I think, canteron. If folks prefer not to give treats or use them to reward behaviour, that's their prerogative.

 

[Coblover63]

Agree with EVERYTHING Brightbay said - and she knows her stuff!!!

A yearling is like a toddler.... has a very short attention span so keep sessions quick. Over the stable door is how I start mine off - targetting first, until they get the idea of doing something, getting a click and then getting a treat, then progressing to looking away, but I like BB's "at ease". I also keep my bum bag with treats twisted so that it is on my back so they can't nuzzle it when I'm working near them. IME, the older they get the better they learn.

 

[soloequestrian]

Thanks for all the useful advice! I tried her tonight with fewer rewards than clicks (for picking up feet) and that went fine, also did a little 'doing nothing' training ('stand') which I think she sort of understood - she did run through every other possible trick before giving up, at which point she got a click! I'll follow up the suggested trainers now too.

 

[Brightbay]

I also keep my bum bag with treats twisted so that it is on my back so they can't nuzzle it when I'm working near them.

I forgot that one - that is also a great idea - it gives a clear signal to the horse, "game on" or "don't ask"

I also found a good article from Nikki Chamberlain about exactly this topic... http://www.apbc.org.uk/blog/clicker_training_horse_equine

The main thing is that you should both be enjoying yourself - so very short sessions, lots of rewards during sessions, clear marker of "end of session" using a big handful of rewards in the bucket, then walk away and take some time to plan your next session. Being stingy with the rewards is actually counter productive - better to do a 2 minute session with lots of rewards than a 10 minute session where the horse gets the occasional small reward - there's less frustration associated with the short sessions and they work better for the human who's just starting out too