Clicker training question.

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GeorgeyGal

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Are there some horses that are not suited to clicker training, as in using food as an initial reward? I'm talking mainly about youngsters who can become mouthey and bitey given the chance, by hand feeding etc. Or, is it different as the food reward is controlled so shouldn't cause the horse to become nippy etc?
 
My youngster was very nippy/mouthy 2 year old and very boysterous (sp?) when I got him. Clicker training worked wonders for him. I have been told it works very well on nippy horses as they learn to 'earn' their treats. Good luck! :)
 
The clicker actually makes it much clearer to them that they are not getting a treat for pestering you. I have seen problems with horses who are very food motivated who are taught a trick and then just reproduce it randomly whenever they want a treat. It takes a long time to teach a horse the concept of 'only when asked' when using treats. Clicker training is best used for things that you always want a horse to do, such as stand still in a particular situation or load onto a lorry etc.
 
I was thinking of using it when picking her feet up, as she's become sensitive on one of her hinds (stemmed from past injury, vet trying to shave where cut was etc). I've been doing what I know to build up the trust again, slow and using ground work etc, but thought clicker may be worth a try on this one hoof?
 
Oh yes she is v food orientated and its taken months of consistent handling and boundaries to stop the mouthiness and trying to nip hence I'm wary of undoing good work!
 
Definately. That would be ideal. I would use the clicker on all feet though and every time she exhibits the behaviour you want - click and treat. My lad used to bite you if you touched his legs below the knee. Took only a couple of sessions for him to stop biting and pick up feet when asked. However he is very very quick on the uptake. Good luck!
 
GeorgeyGal said:
Oh yes she is v food orientated and its taken months of consistent handling and boundaries to stop the mouthiness and trying to nip hence I'm wary of undoing good work!
Click to expand...

That is the point of the clicker. She will learn only to get food/reward if the clicker is sounded. I don't know if you have done it before, but you need to be very quick with the click and follow up with the food as quick as possible. Reward does not need to be big - a pony nut or two will do. It does take a bit of practise to get quick with it, but you can practise on people!!!!!!
 
You do have to be very clear and consistent and make sure the treat comes immediately after the clicker and make sure you are only using the clicker to mark the behaviour that you want and you should be fine. I've never heard of it used for picking up feet - how were you planning on doing it? (just interested) :)
 
I used it to teach mine to pick up his feet. I just did it bit by bit - e.g. when I went to pick out his feet like normal (by running hand down his leg) I would also give command 'up' then click when he did it. Gradually of course he would pick up foot when hand is just on his knee (and when I'm saying the command), keep clicking when he does the right thing - you just keep moving the command further and further away until eventually I just point at his feet and say 'up'.

I then did the same thing standing in front of him to teach him to 'shake hands' (i.e. put his foot out forwards) which I use when I pull his legs forward after doing up the girth.

I am not sure I'd use clicker training on a mouthy horse unless I was already quite experienced at doing it with a range of horses....it could be quite easy to get wrong. just be really careful!!
 
It is different - they come to associate the food with the sound that means they have done well, be it clicker or anything else, and so long as you never ever reward mugging by giving food they won't continue to do it. There is a way of training out a behaviour by putting it on cue - and then never giving the cue, and this is one of them. The only time they get a food reward is following the sound which then becomes conditioned to assocaite with the treats.
 
I don't know much about it but have read the basics. She is super quick to learn so thought I'd give it ago.

So, I would start on her front (I always go in the same order), ask for her foot whilst running my hand down, sometimes I need a slight tug on fetlock but as soon as she gives me her foot I will do a 'click' sound (I will use a different sound than the cluck which I use for impulsion) as I cant be messing about holding an object to use for the click noise, then v quickly place her foot down and reward with treat. Hopefully by the hind foot she will be willing to give me her foot on the ask. I won't pick them out to begin with, will just focus on increasing the time each day.

Does this sound like a plan?
 
I think I need to focus on increasing the time each hoof Is held for (prep for farrier), and then once that's going well then use the clicker to teach her to pick feet up more readily as Morgan I believe mentioned.
 
I don't use a click of any kind - just the word "good". I know it is not as consistent as a click sound but it works for me and comes easier and more naturally to me.
I would draw up a shaping plan, indicating the steps from running a hand down one leg to holding the foot in the air and tapping or rubbing with an implement of some kind. I would do the easiest leg first, right through to the aim then do it again with the others - your co-ordination will be better for one thing. You will be surprised how quickly it will go once she gets the hang of it
 
JillA do you mean tap or rub used as an indication that I have now finished with what I am asking so to mark the end of the 'lesson' I am giving an indicator followed by a 'click' or do the rub etc at the same time as the verbal 'click'?

All very useful replies thanks guys!

After this is learned do you just stop treating as much and use a scratch instead, so wean off the food treats? I'd be quite happy to treat after each hoof for the farrier long term so it's a nice experience, possibly... Will see how it goes.
 
No, tap or rub to imitate what a farrier would do and prepare her for that.
If you treat every time the behaviour will remain the same - once you have got what you are asking for most of the time you go to what is called a random schedule of reinforcement, only rewarding some of the responses. She will then try harder to get the treat, so you reward the bigger and better responses, that is how you shape a small response into a bigger one.
You don't need to mark the end of the session, just stop asking questions, but TBH for me and mine, all day every day is learning and rewarding, each time they do something well. The underlying rule is that anything that gets positively reinforced is likely to be done again, and you are using that and then waiting to reward better responses.
 
GeorgeyGal said:
I think I need to focus on increasing the time each hoof Is held for (prep for farrier), and then once that's going well then use the clicker to teach her to pick feet up more readily as Morgan I believe mentioned.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what you would use clicker training to do?

OK, here's how I would go about it. I think you mentioned in an earlier post that she will cock hind hoof, but just kicks out when it is lifted up?

You need to decide a "cue" that means "lift your hoof please" - and only use it when you want hoof lifted. I would avoid making the cue running hand down leg, as then when the vet visits and wants to check tendons you will have a horse obligingly lifting their leg for them ;) I would suggest a tap on the side of the hoof with your fingers.

Start by counting out 10 pieces of food. Each session needs to be 10 treats long and no longer. You are training two things at once, and this isn't always successful, so be aware you may need to focus on one only for a while (polite around food) if it becomes an issue.

First, you want to train the horse to keep their hoof on the ground while you touch their leg ;) This seems an odd thing to train, but it's because you've already inadvertently trained a "kick out in defense when leg touched" response and you need to extinguish it :)

Approach pony and touch leg up to the point where they are kicking out. If hoof stays down, click and feed. Feed by placing hand with treat under their nose - don't let them bend around to get the food, they should wait with nose central. If not, keep food in your closed fist, move your hand into the position where you want to feed, allow them to touch it with their nose then turn hand and open. Do this ten times, then take a break.

Repeat. By about the third set of 10 (varies depending on horse), you can advance your hand a bit further and still get a foot solidly on ground. Now you want movement :) I would aim for a fractional lift of the hoof first - not even cocked onto toe, just even an unweighting of that foot will do. Click and reward the instant you see this. Now you are at the stage of training "please keep your hoof on the floor until I ask for movement" stage.

Do this 10 times, take a break, repeat. By about the third set of 10, you may see horse begin - of their own accord - to lift slightly more. Capture this attempt with a click, reward and a big fuss. Take a break.

Come back, restart and wait for the slightly bigger lift - it may be the horse is starting to cock leg onto toe. This is perfect. Again, each time you get this, make a big fuss and take a break. (If you want, you can end session by throwing a handful of rewards - I use high fibre cubes for convenience and low calories ;) ) into a bucket next to horse - this stops them worrying that you've left, taking the rewards with you.

Now you're working towards getting the hoof cocked onto toe. As you work, you will find the horse tries to anticipate you by offering a little more (or a bit different) - they want to get the reward sooner, so it is in their interest to try to move things along. The next stage will be capturing the lift of the hoof before they cock onto toe, and having your hand there, near the ground, for them to place hoof into. This should only be for a fraction of a second before hoof is replaced on ground and reward/fuss given.

Repeat, until it becomes a definite "offer" of a foot. At this point, you want to introduce your "cue". Bend down, tap side of foot and wait. If nothing happens :p go back a step, and get the "offer" of the hoof clearer. Take this stage very very gradually - you don't want to reawaken the "kick out" response until you have this part very solid (in fact, ideally, you never want to rewaken the kick out response - if you do, inadvertently, again go back a step to where you don't get it, and build again).

Now you want to build duration. Again, this is fairly straightforward. It helps both trainer and horse if you count out loud to begin with - and you want to start with one second :D, then two, then three. You will find a point where the horse shows you that you can extend this in larger time increments.

Always place hoof down before clicking when you get to this stage. Don't hold onto hoof if horse wants to put it down early. Just allow them, pet them but don't reward with food. There is no hassle - they will offer it again.

The next steps will be : holding hoof while tapping once or twice with pick, then holding hoof while picking e.g. one side, holding hoof while picking both sides, holding hoof while picking and then e.g. brushing with a hoof brush. You can move on to holding while running a bit of sand paper around toe etc. to prepare for farrier.

At all stages, be prepared to go back a step or steps if things don't work. And remember, the very first step is the one most people miss - where the horse doesn't lift the hoof but unweights the leg. Most people don't understand this is an "offer" from the horse, and so don't even spot that it is something that can be built on, if you're working on a system where the horse is motivated to work with you. Sometimes, you have to wait a moment for it to happen, sometimes you have to engineer it by getting someone up front to lift the lead rope as though you're about to walk them off. Don't tug, pull, squeeze or otherwise demand the hoof - the horse will offer it to you in their own time. ETA - this process is obviously broken down over a period of days - although you can do several 10 treat sessions each day. There's a reason for this - learning is more effective if the horse has time to "consolidate" what they've learned overnight.

The end result looks like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3OTJZJi3ZU
 
Do you have another horse/dog you could practice with? I’ve even heard of people using their children or siblings to practice with too. The only reason I say this, is that everyone is right that clicker training SHOULDN’T encourage mugging behaviour if you do it right, because the horse should learn that it needs to do something to be rewarded. However, this depends on your horse.

My horse, for example, is very sweet but a bit dim. He is fortunately not a mugger but is quite food orientated. When I clicker train him, I can really see his brain working – if I try and teach him something new, I can see him really thinking and he goes through mini-movements of all the commands he knows (e.g. he kisses, steps over, shakes hands etc) – he gets really excited about working out what to do. This isn’t a bad thing with him per se – it’s just how his brain works. BUT if he was dim and also a bit food aggressive, it totally wouldn’t work, because he’d get excited and if he over-associated this with food, would probably end up nipping.

Other horses work differently of course, and yours may respond completely differently – but my point is, while it’s absolutely true that clicker training should not encourage mugging behaviour, it is really important to do it properly so as not to put yourself in any difficult situations - if you could practice first that might really help – or is there anything else you could use as a treat (e.g. scratching his withers/does he already like being praised)??

I hope this doesn’t come across as discouraging at all, clicker training is really fun and I completely swear by it as a means of training positively, but just be careful!
 
p.s. for an easy first thing to teach (and always make the first thing really easy), I found touching a football with the nose was a good one with several horses. This is because they naturally go to touch a football anyway if you place it near them, so you can easily then click and reward. It's out of their usual scope of normal activity (they don't normally see a football after all!) so you won't confuse them by rewarding it one day and not the next - which could happen with foot-picking.

Completely up to you, just a suggestion!
 
Oh yes, and absolutely do stop treating as often as you did in the beginning. In fact, I would do that quite early on. After a few pairings of the click and the treat, you'll see the lightbulb moment happen for the horse! after only just a few more instances of pairing the click and treat, I'd remove the treat every third click, for example, then every other time (though don't make an actual specific pattern, as they will learn that too....). Did that make sense? Sorry, hard to describe.

would love to hear how you get on by the way :-).
 
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