Clicker training - what do I need to know?

[cblover]

Hi there, following on from Brightbay's suggestion that my friend try clicker training with her youngster I quite fancy the idea myself.

So...what do I need to know? Tell me everything. lol Brightbay has recommended Hannah Dawson and Leslie Pavlich. I'll check them both out shortly but what books and online resources does other people recommend?

I have a young horse who I'm sure would love this kind of thing and its a great thing to learn together...I hope! lol

I love to read but like books that are simple and clear in their explanation. My boy doesn't have any specific problems so I'd be doing it to occupy him and to give us something fun to do.

Cheers.

 

[canteron]

There are many secret top riders who use clicker. It isn't magic, its is just a way of letting a horse (dog, dolphin) know the exact behaviour you are looking for.

I have had a few lessons with a dressage teacher (Grand Prix standard) who admitted to using it - they were invaluable. Her best advice was to use it as very targetted praise and remember consistency was king.

Alexander Kurland has written a book that is generally considered to be good.

However, I really rate the Hannah Dawson website. For £10 you can access many videos that will get you started and addresses some of the problems and will give you a fairly good idea of what can be achieved and how to do it. She hasn't got that much under saddle yet, but promises it is coming. If you pay a little more you can get advice directly from her, but maybe just start with a wander through the videos.

Have fun - honestly, if nothing else it teaches you about timing and in my case has made my school sour horse enjoying schooling again!!

(PS if you are good at 'clucking' you don't need a clicker, its just using a consistent sound of any type!).

 

[Queenbee]

There are many secret top riders who use clicker. It isn't magic, its is just a way of letting a horse (dog, dolphin) know the exact behaviour you are looking for.

I have had a few lessons with a dressage teacher (Grand Prix standard) who admitted to using it - they were invaluable. Her best advice was to use it as very targetted praise and remember consistency was king.

Alexander Kurland has written a book that is generally considered to be good.

However, I really rate the Hannah Dawson website. For £10 you can access many videos that will get you started and addresses some of the problems and will give you a fairly good idea of what can be achieved and how to do it. She hasn't got that much under saddle yet, but promises it is coming. If you pay a little more you can get advice directly from her, but maybe just start with a wander through the videos.

Have fun - honestly, if nothing else it teaches you about timing and in my case has made my school sour horse enjoying schooling again!!

(PS if you are good at 'clucking' you don't need a clicker, its just using a consistent sound of any type!).

I wouldn't bother paying money to watch videos to be honest, I went on you tube, there are loads on there... I got the book clicker training the young colt, its available in paperback and to download on kindle, her videos are on youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/user/Chey8114?feature=watch but she is able to explain it really well on paper. I quite like these training videos too, amongst other things they chart the progress of one of their horses from a foal to under saddle... http://www.youtube.com/user/Ksturg8929?feature=watch

 

[Oberon]

This lady runs online training courses .

http://www.facebook.com/SMAARTHorses?fref=ts

 

[atlantis]

I got a book too, before you tube was about lol. It was a way if bonding with my boy when i first got him and helped keep his mind busy and teach him some manners. He would fetch a sponge (useless but for getting the idea) and i sed it to get him to hold hs feet up, as he used to slam them down.

Quite useful really.

 

[cblover]

Thanks for the info....I'm researching books at the minute. Alex Kerland seems to have the book I would like. Anyone else got good book suggestions?

 

[canteron]

I wouldn't bother paying money to watch videos to be honest, I went on you tube, there are loads on there... I got the book clicker training the young colt, its available in paperback and to download on kindle, her videos are on youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/user/Chey8114?feature=watch but she is able to explain it really well on paper. I quite like these training videos too, amongst other things they chart the progress of one of their horses from a foal to under saddle... http://www.youtube.com/user/Ksturg8929?feature=watch

Trust me, I too have watch so many useless - and some good - youtube videos. If you have heaps of time, you may find the information there. If you find it confusing then I think the Hannah Dawson ones are probably a better investment that a book.

 

[Brightbay]

I would still recommend a book or Hannah (or Amanda's) website. While the principles are simple, there are pitfalls to avoid that aren't obvious, and I have yet to find a step by step guide free online. So you may find an excellent video that shows you how to do targetting (great fun if you're not training for manners or wanting to resolve issues), and then find you have a horse who spends their whole time with their nose in your pocket, or chasing after everything they think might be a target

It's like me saying there are perfectly good videos on YouTube showing me how to train piaffe, and starting there... there might be a few small basics that it would be a good idea to put in place first, that might just not be covered in the "how to" videos

I am aware of this gap and am working to fill it, but creating a large set of step by step videos takes time, excellent video editing skills (which fortunately my partner in crime has), and a wide selection of horses at different levels of training . I am willing to send the intro text and videos to anybody who is interested provided they are aware that they are in development and that we would value feedback

In the meantime, Hannah's resources are not expensive, and a book by either Leslie Pavlich on Colt Starting the Natural Horse - if you have a young horse - or Sharon Foley's Getting to Yes for a slightly more "English Riding" approach - or the bible of clicker training horses "You can train your horse to do anything" by Shawna Karrash - are all good books. Alex Kurland has also written two books, but her style is quite specialised and doesn't bolt on to other styles as easily So far, the practical "how to" books are all US based, which is why I recommend Hannah Dawson, as someone who has a better understanding of the UK and how we keep and ride our horses

Anybody wanting to beta test, do PM me

ETA - fetch is a good skill - but for some reason nobody seems to point out that it can be useful too. Ever dropped a glove while mounted? ;-)

 

[cblover]

Thanks BB, I'm going through the list of books you recommended. Just having a look at Leslie Pavlich.....thank god for google! lol

 

[harlequinwalk]

This sounds very interesting and is something I have been considering for a while...however I don't have a young horse, mine is 16. Will he be too set in his ways and closed off to new things for me to be able to clicker train well?

 

[Brightbay]

This sounds very interesting and is something I have been considering for a while...however I don't have a young horse, mine is 16. Will he be too set in his ways and closed off to new things for me to be able to clicker train well?

Not at all The first horse I tried it with, a good few years ago now, was 18 at the time, and she loved it. I also did a little with a 30 year old ex hunter hire in the year before he died, and it was quite touching how much he enjoyed doing just very simple things. To us, having a horse walk backwards away from us at a signal is a basic skill. The horse doesn't know this, though, and if you train it using reward, it can become their favourite thing to do, while nickering and wanting to do it over and over - one of the tricks the trainer needs to learn is how to end a training session, because the horse usually wants to keep going

 

[Pedantic]

You'll need a clicker for starters

 

[asommerville]

Its so good im training mine to.accept clippers atm.and its.made a huge difference

 

[cblover]

Great to hear such positive stories!

 

[Fransurrey]

The best advice I can give is to read up and learn the theory behind positive reinforcement and operant conditioning, so that you avoid the pitfalls. CT can be done badly like any other method. Websites to look at are hartshorsemanship and also thinking horsemanship.com The latter can be quite heavy on behaviorist terms but everyone is very knowledgeable. The mamma of CT in my opinion is Karen Pryor. She specialises in dogs but learning theory is learning theory and she's also worked with horses, rabbits, goldfish...Her book is a general introduction to positive reinforcement and is still The Bible for me! It's called Don't Shoot the Dog. Her website has lots of little snippets on there, ideas for training which are transferable across species. Good luck!

 

[Queenbee]

Trust me, I too have watch so many useless - and some good - youtube videos. If you have heaps of time, you may find the information there. If you find it confusing then I think the Hannah Dawson ones are probably a better investment that a book.

as have I, which is why I have hi lighted 2 users that have posted many free and useful/insightful videos. That being said, there is nothing wrong with paying to watch videos, I just don't see the point when you don't have to.

 

[Queenbee]

I would still recommend a book or Hannah (or Amanda's) website. While the principles are simple, there are pitfalls to avoid that aren't obvious, and I have yet to find a step by step guide free online. So you may find an excellent video that shows you how to do targetting (great fun if you're not training for manners or wanting to resolve issues), and then find you have a horse who spends their whole time with their nose in your pocket, or chasing after everything they think might be a target

It's like me saying there are perfectly good videos on YouTube showing me how to train piaffe, and starting there... there might be a few small basics that it would be a good idea to put in place first, that might just not be covered in the "how to" videos

I am aware of this gap and am working to fill it, but creating a large set of step by step videos takes time, excellent video editing skills (which fortunately my partner in crime has), and a wide selection of horses at different levels of training . I am willing to send the intro text and videos to anybody who is interested provided they are aware that they are in development and that we would value feedback

In the meantime, Hannah's resources are not expensive, and a book by either Leslie Pavlich on Colt Starting the Natural Horse - if you have a young horse - or Sharon Foley's Getting to Yes for a slightly more "English Riding" approach - or the bible of clicker training horses "You can train your horse to do anything" by Shawna Karrash - are all good books. Alex Kurland has also written two books, but her style is quite specialised and doesn't bolt on to other styles as easily So far, the practical "how to" books are all US based, which is why I recommend Hannah Dawson, as someone who has a better understanding of the UK and how we keep and ride our horses

Anybody wanting to beta test, do PM me

ETA - fetch is a good skill - but for some reason nobody seems to point out that it can be useful too. Ever dropped a glove while mounted? ;-)

Thats the one I got... Leslies book and the link to her vids is the first link in my post above

 

[Brightbay]

Thank you to the people who PMed to volunteer to beta test our short video intros to practical clicker training, btw - I am sorting them all out and copying into PM format, but it might take me a few hours to get all 6 intro lessons into the right format, so please bear with me

 

[B_2_B]

I have a few numpty questions

Does clicker training work well with foals (7 months)?
What food do you use as the reinforcement?
Would it work if you only see the horse, and only have a spare half hour or hour once a week?

 

[Brightbay]

I have a few numpty questions

Does clicker training work well with foals (7 months)?
What food do you use as the reinforcement?
Would it work if you only see the horse, and only have a spare half hour or hour once a week?

Yes, it does. Shawna Karrasch's book does cover this. Clicker training is a way of training based on the science behind how all animals learn - and foals are no exception (in fact, like most young animals, they're like sponges, learn fast and enjoy learning). But because they're still learning about food that doesn't come from mum, it's easier to start training using scritches as rewards - I have yet to meet the baby horse who doesn't love being scratched. And as with food, it's useful in that you can train all the things you want to train (putting nose in headcollar for you, walking nicely beside you, lifting feet) at the same time as training manners around when it is appropriate to ask for a scratch and when it's not (one of the first lessons for older horses is when does the food come, what do you do to get the food to come and how to take food politely).

The same principles apply when using scratches - they are a reward, you use a marker signal (a click) to say "yes, that's right, your reward is coming" and you don't scratch just because, but only after a click.

 

[Lotty]

I wouldn't bother paying £10. When my mate was on box rest for 8months I used the clicker at first then changed it to my tongue, her treat was a couple of high fibre nuts, not much but she'll do anything for food. If I point my finger to her head and ask her to "say no" she will shake her head, I point to each foot and she will lift it and if I throw a cloth she catches it.

 

[cblover]

Lotty that sounds great, I'd love to see that!

 

[B_2_B]

Yes, it does. Shawna Karrasch's book does cover this. Clicker training is a way of training based on the science behind how all animals learn - and foals are no exception (in fact, like most young animals, they're like sponges, learn fast and enjoy learning). But because they're still learning about food that doesn't come from mum, it's easier to start training using scritches as rewards - I have yet to meet the baby horse who doesn't love being scratched. And as with food, it's useful in that you can train all the things you want to train (putting nose in headcollar for you, walking nicely beside you, lifting feet) at the same time as training manners around when it is appropriate to ask for a scratch and when it's not (one of the first lessons for older horses is when does the food come, what do you do to get the food to come and how to take food politely).

The same principles apply when using scratches - they are a reward, you use a marker signal (a click) to say "yes, that's right, your reward is coming" and you don't scratch just because, but only after a click.

Thanks
I've had a look and I think I prefer the look of Sharon Foleys book though.

I wouldn't bother paying £10. When my mate was on box rest for 8months I used the clicker at first then changed it to my tongue, her treat was a couple of high fibre nuts, not much but she'll do anything for food. If I point my finger to her head and ask her to "say no" she will shake her head, I point to each foot and she will lift it and if I throw a cloth she catches it.

Oh you have to explain how you taught "say no", please

 

[Tonks]

Why not go the whole hog and get into Equitation Science and Learning theory?

These are the scientific principles regarding how animals [to include equine and human!] learn, behave and operate.

The main advocate for Learning theory in equitation science is Dr Andrew McLean who also works with McGreevy. They have published several books on equitation science/ethology.

McLean runs the Australian Equine Behavioural Centre.

I have a background in psychology and was actively seeking to incorporate it into equitation and I can honestly say that it has revolutionised my work with horses and my teaching/instruction.

The equine industry is pretty uneducated regarding the scientific principles that underlie equine behaviour. Spreading the word can only but increase welfare in what is at times, a very antiquated and old fashioned industry - unlike the canine world which does train using Learning theory and science.

 

[Regandal]

I got the Sharon Foley book (Getting to Yes) - its good, easy to understand. It is absolutely awesome when the horse "gets it", I just stood & stared at him. Makes you feel very humble. M

 

[Brightbay]

Why not go the whole hog and get into Equitation Science and Learning theory?

These are the scientific principles regarding how animals [to include equine and human!] learn, behave and operate.

The main advocate for Learning theory in equitation science is Dr Andrew McLean who also works with McGreevy. They have published several books on equitation science/ethology.

McLean runs the Australian Equine Behavioural Centre.

I have a background in psychology and was actively seeking to incorporate it into equitation and I can honestly say that it has revolutionised my work with horses and my teaching/instruction.

The equine industry is pretty uneducated regarding the scientific principles that underlie equine behaviour. Spreading the word can only but increase welfare in what is at times, a very antiquated and old fashioned industry - unlike the canine world which does train using Learning theory and science.

Training using learning theory does indeed tend to attract people with a background in psychology

On the other hand, people who don't have a psychology or science background tend to find the heavy explanations of the science behind it quite offputting. Most of the resources above aim to make it very approachable.

McLean's approach is certainly interesting, although very much his own interpretation of the science, and very much dependent on the learner wanting to learn about the science. I would suggest if anybody tried out some of the ideas above and wanted to find out more, McLean's book would be a good next step (although it's not actually clicker training or positive reinforcement training).

 

[B_2_B]

I got the Sharon Foley book (Getting to Yes) - its good, easy to understand. It is absolutely awesome when the horse "gets it", I just stood & stared at him. Makes you feel very humble. M

She's a very clever baby so I'm thinking she'll be good at it

Another questions - I think I saw somewhere when I was just looking that you need to take the clicker (and treats if you use them) every time you see/handle the horse.
Is that right, or does it still work if you don't all the time?
I'm just thinking that I will forget most of the time if I'm just bringing her in and out of the field, and you wouldn't need them for that?

 

[Tonks]

I am interested as to why you think it's his own 'interpretation'?

Can you explain this?

Again, I am interested in why you state that McLean's book is not 'actually clicker training or positive reinforcement'. McLean's book is not an 'approach' and the books very much describes and discuss 'positive reinforcement'.

Thanks.

 

[Regandal]

She's a very clever baby so I'm thinking she'll be good at it

Another questions - I think I saw somewhere when I was just looking that you need to take the clicker (and treats if you use them) every time you see/handle the horse.
Is that right, or does it still work if you don't all the time?

You teach it in "sessions" or blocks, short bursts at a time. 5 minutes, if that's all you can spare. Very easy to fit in.

 

[Brightbay]

She's a very clever baby so I'm thinking she'll be good at it

Another questions - I think I saw somewhere when I was just looking that you need to take the clicker (and treats if you use them) every time you see/handle the horse.
Is that right, or does it still work if you don't all the time?
I'm just thinking that I will forget most of the time if I'm just bringing her in and out of the field, and you wouldn't need them for that?

To start with, you would tend to have quite clearly defined "training sessions" at a time and place you choose. As the horse "gets it", you can start to ask for the things you've trained at different times and in different places (in fact, you should!) and provided you they have really understood, you don't need to click and give a food reward when they do what you want, you just introduce a "good boy" and scratch to acknowledge they did the right thing.

So no, you don't need (or indeed, want) to be carrying food and clicker with you at all times