Clicker Training

[Julieq]

Hi

Has anyone used clicker training on there horse before or has any thoughts on it??

Would appreciate any info.

Thanks
Ju

 

[Pedantic]

I bought the book by Shawna and Vinton Karrasch on clicker training for horses, makes interesting reading, not tried it out yet though as my beast learns quick anyway.

 

[rosieted]

We have used it on our young shire horse to get her to pick her feet up but unless you do it pretty much constantly it doesnt work. I found with one of my other horses that she just got all nippy for food. Its good for teaching them little tricks though!

 

[voicesforhorses]

If you want to know about CT contact Ben Hart you can find him via his web site. He also has a book coming out around September on Clicker Training.
CT like any 'method' has to suit the person and the horse and ultimately the unique combination. CT does work but first it helps to understand how equines learn and how to shape their motivation.
Ben works in all these areas.
If a horse becomes overly food orientated when using CT it is either because it is not a suitable method for the horse (ie it is food possessive etc) or the trainers/handlers timing is out. CT its self does not create problem behaviors with food. You also do not necessarily have to use food as a reward.

Ben's web site address:
http://www.hartshorsemanship.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=controller.viewPageHome

All the best
Emma
www.voicesforhorses.co.uk

 

[Booboos]

I use Clicker Training for all the dogs and was lucky enough to be taught by Elizabeth Kershaw about 10 years ago when it as just getting started.

The main thing is that you have to train little and often which may well be a problem with horses, especially if you don't keep them at home/have limited time, but it can work very well as long as you understand the principles (Kershaw's Go Click! book for dogs is great at explaining the main ideas and you can apply it to horses).

To prevent problems with food (which are as likely to occur with dogs really) start with an 'off' exercise (you can use it as your first one). I used this on a horse that became bargy and overbearing near food. I put him in his stable with the door closed and stood outside. I put a treat in my hand and made a fist so he could not get the treat, then gave him my fist. It is important to make no reaction, no discouraging sounds, or moves, do NOT take the hand away. The fist should just be available right under his nose, he can lick it, bump it, kick the stable door, whatever he likes but he does not get the treat. Wait until for whatever reason, coincidence, frustration, a noise, it doesn't matter, the horse's nose moves from the fist. As soon as there is 'daylight' between the nose and the fist click - the timing is crucial. Then open the fist and feed the treat. By the third time, my horse had cottoned on and was moving his nose away from the fist. By the next day as soon as I gave my fist, he walked back a full step. It's a conditioned reflex and can work impressively well. "See food, move back, get food" is what you are trying to teach. For horses that are likely to bite a chunk out of your hand use a remote operated box (i.e. a box with a lid that will open from a distance). Eventually you can replace that with your fist when it is safe to do so. When you consistently get the right behaviour, i.e. see fist move back, you can start putting in a work like 'off', so that in a few weeks' time when the word is associated with the behaviour, all you have to do is say 'off' and the horse moves back. This can establish the ground rules with respect to food and clicker training, although like all things, I am sure there is a horse out there that will be the exception to the rule!

 

[Natch]

I have used it successfully but stopped using food very quickly - if you are skilled it can work with a horse who mugs you, but I found it a lot more painless and effective to click and give a good rub and praise as reward. Had F standing on a tree stump just for fun by using clicker training the second time we did it.

 

[Eceni]

I use it all the time with my lurcher, teh cat and, most recently, my horse. I was trained in horse clicker training by Alex Kurland, who was trained by (amongst others) Bettina Drummond, who was Nuno Olivero's senior pupil, so she combines clicker training with classical riding.

she's a completely inspirational teacher and teaches both horses and humans in a positive fashion, while getting across the foundations of what we need to know

She's coming over to do a series of workshops in the UK in the summer and I know there's space on the one in Dorset, which may be useful, depending on where you live.

for details, see her website http://www.theclickercenter.com

The point with clicker training is that, to be good, you have to understand the science. And you can train whatever the heck you want - so if you want to train good, soft, supple, horses, it helps if you have a mentor/trainer who understands the basics of good (that is for me, classical, you may be different) horsemanship so that you're learning both at once.

There are a number of very good horse clicker lists - some people in the UK, and rather more in the US, truly understand the science of this and do some astonishing, beautiful work.

good luck

E

 

[voicesforhorses]

I think Kurland is ok but she uses a lot of negative reinforcement to create a behaviour she wants to shape as opposed to ‘free shaping’ - this is ok but it is not often pointed out so I think she can be misleading. I do not find her clear on the principles of reinforcements.

A good book (although not just about horses) is Don’t Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor. She started working with positive reinforcement (CT) in 1963 when she became a head dolphin trainer - where a bucket of fish and a whistle were the only tools. No bridles, whips, head collars etc.

I have been using CT with horses for 10 years. It is a powerful tool - I taught an unhandled pony to stand in the middle of a 50 acre field to have his feet trimmed, but as with all methods and equipment it is also a dangerous tool in the wrong or unskilled hands. I have known someone accidentally teach a horse to buck when ridden.

Listen and watch people who use it and as you have done here ask questions, keep an open mind but most of all don’t just dive in and give it a go. This is where most people go wrong with all kinds of methods and ultimately the blame gets put on the horse if/when it goes wrong. It is our own knowledge and skill (or lack of) that determines the successes.

There are lots of things you can do to learn about CT and how to perfect your timing with out using it on an animal. For example see if you can shape a friends behavior to stand on one leg for example with out saying anything. Remember just like an animal they first have to understand the click means ‘yes’ this is quick to explain to a human but can take a little longer for an animal to be conditioned to understand. However it is crucial they do before any training takes place. If you don’t succeed getting your friend to stand on one leg think about why and could you have made it easier for them? Did you use enough clicks – did you use too many – was the task to difficult for you or your friend? Do you need to start with something easier? These are all the kinds of questions a responsible trainer whether using CT or not should be asking themselves when working with animals.

Emma
www.voicesforhorses.co.uk

 

[Shilasdair]

Can I use clicker training for my OH?
S

 

[Eceni]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Kurland is ok but she uses a lot of negative reinforcement to create a behaviour she wants to shape as opposed to ‘free shaping’

[/ QUOTE ]

Emma - she really, really doesn't - have you seen the 'micro-shaping' DVD? Have you been to any of her recent seminars/workshops? SHe's working with Kay Lawrence, Karen Pryor and the others at Clicker Expo and she is very, very sharp on the latest thinking and how to apply it. She is constantly updating her teaching and her DVDs are second to none on both their information and the way they present what we all need to know.

I don't want to hijack someone else's post, but please check your facts first. Alex is using the science of clicker training to held produce balanced, flexible, safe, well-mannered horses that will work in all disciplines at all levels - or be happy hackers if you want.

thanks

E

 

[gemske]

Hi, I also use clicker to train my ponys. My little one has learnt to "say no" "kiss" "give feet" "cross feet" "go backwards" "pick something up and bring it to me" "stand on podest". For my mare I've used it to make her step into the trailer which she was refusing before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB2_ENY_BXs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IJnIon73hY

I agree with the posters above that clickertraining can be a very powerful and friendly tool to teach your horse anything you want. But it certainly needs the right way to handle it.

 

[voicesforhorses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think Kurland is ok but she uses a lot of negative reinforcement to create a behaviour she wants to shape as opposed to ‘free shaping’

[/ QUOTE ]

Emma - she really, really doesn't - have you seen the 'micro-shaping' DVD? Have you been to any of her recent seminars/workshops? SHe's working with Kay Lawrence, Karen Pryor and the others at Clicker Expo and she is very, very sharp
on the latest thinking and how to apply it. She is constantly updating her teaching and her DVDs are second to none on both their information and the way they present what we all need to know.

I don't want to hijack someone else's post, but please check your facts first. Alex is using the science of clicker training to held produce balanced, flexible, safe, well-mannered horses that will work in all disciplines at all levels - or be happy hackers if you want.

thanks

E

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not presume to comment on this subject (especially on a post where someone is looking for help) without knowledge of it any more than I am sure you would. I have studied the trainers and their work. All trainers vary in their teaching styles and communication of the practical application of the science (which is normal) My opinion is just different to yours. I do not agree her teaching is 'second to none' but I hope I show enough respect not to tell you to check your facts just because our views differ. I do not dispute AK's standing in the CT community or challenge her knowledge of the science or the fact she updates her teaching. I used to recommend her but as she has improved so have others and I just think there are better teachers and they are not necessarily the big names associated with CT - but like I say that is just my opinion.

Sorry this has digressed from the original question.

With respect
Emma
www.voicesforhorses.co.uk