Close contact/mono flap saddles- riding in for long periods of time?

[Michen]

I am looking for a new saddle for my horse (s), and interestingly after a visit from the fitter today who had reflocked my existing saddle she said you wouldn’t want an equipe type saddle as something to ride in for long periods of time (hacking, hunting) as they do not have a large enough surface area and something else about the tree that I’ve forgotten!

I have never heard this before and this has somewhat altered what I thought I maybe wanted. Interested if others have. Now looking at Black Country saddles instead, potentially a new Wexford...

 

[AUB]

Never heard of that. I have an Equipe Emporio dressage and love it. But I guess most saddle fitters have their own likes and dislikes.

 

[SOS]

I’ve heard it for devocoux jump/XC saddles. That they are made for the two point position so should be ridden ‘sat’ in for long periods of time.

No idea how true that is and looking forward to seeing some more knowledgable replies.

 

[gunnergundog]

One horse currently hunts in an Albion Revelation XC and the other in a Reactorpanel Elevation Jump (don't ask!). Have previously hunted in a Stubben Siegfried (probably the 'hardest' saddle to sit on for five hours plus), but so long as the saddle fits both horse and you then all it boils down to is 'conditioning' both of you and building the endurance.

Saddles like the Albion Revelation XC are designed for XC (hint in the name) and therefore more suited to Shire packs where you are moving more constantly, faster and jumping more as opposed, say, to a fell pack.

PS I never found the Wexford forward cut enough and not flat enough in the seat to get my arse far enough back so ended up with a vinici monoflap when I purchased from Black Country..

 

[suebou]

MY devoucox mono flap jump saddle is regularly used 4-5 hacks, good mix of speed and terrain. superbly comfy and very secure.

 

[teapot]

I can understand the theory - couldn't believe how 'little' you got for your money when I unpacked a Devoucoux xc CC saddle. Not a lot of them to take a human's weight. Look at how bulky side saddles are...

The other thing is people are beginning to realise that the CC/monoflap saddles with long girth straps mean the girths are tightened/fitted way too low causing problems.

 

[Celtic Fringe]

My saddler also said this when I bought a new one for my little cob a few years ago. The two that fitted were an Equipe Emporio and a Black Country. At the time I intended to do TREC and lots of hacking with him and she recommended the Black Country as she said the traditional wool flocking would be better for him if we were doing any long-ish distances.

 

[Michen]

This is really interesting thanks everyone. Can’t believe I never knew this before!

 

[VioletStripe]

Yup, I've always heard to not ride for long periods of time in a close contact for that reason - regardless of make. I think we're talking 1.5hrs +? I know a few friends who have them tend to have a different saddle for long hacks for that reason.

I know some people historically have said if you have it fitted with a sheepskin underneath it and use it with that then that can negate this... I assume that would also negate the 'close contact' aspect too.

Needless to say, seemed like a lot of faff so I didn't get one in the end!

 

[Lady Jane]

My saddler advised against unless you rode well enough as you were more on the horses back - he said as a jumping saddle it was less of an issue as you should be more off their back. It is the opinion of one person who had no reason to influence my choice of saddles as he doesn't sell them

 

[Britestar]

Is it not to do with the foam they use to pad the panels?
Not necessarily monoflaps per se, as many are traditionally flocked.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I can understand the theory - couldn't believe how 'little' you got for your money when I unpacked a Devoucoux xc CC saddle. Not a lot of them to take a human's weight. Look at how bulky side saddles are...

The other thing is people are beginning to realise that the CC/monoflap saddles with long girth straps mean the girths are tightened/fitted way too low causing problems.

What do you mean re the girth? I have monoflaps and I'm not sure how my girth is way too low or could be. Yeah, if I fitted a short girth incorrectly, but anyone can do that with a double flap dressage saddle and isn't an issue exclusive to monoflaps?

Is it not to do with the foam they use to pad the panels?
Not necessarily monoflaps per se, as many are traditionally flocked.

Yes, I was thinking this. I'm not sure it has to so with the flaps, or lack thereof. More of the weight bearing space. Most Italian and French saddles have smaller and slimmer panels. If I compare my trainer's Equipe to my Albion, my panels are wider and taller (well, also wool) and my horse prefers this. With Equipe and Prestige saddles he was unhappy ...even though I was quite happy because they just feel so good to me.

I also saw another liveries Prestige jump and the panels are so narrow. I like a good wide weight bearing surface. Also better for longer rides (the Western folk knew what they were doing with that). Don't think it has much to do with monoflaps and more to do with the panels perhaps?

 

[poiuytrewq]

I’ve heard this. I currently ride in one as it’s what I had that fitted.
I was guilty of the too short girth. Having always had long girth’s prior to this I asked the saddler who fitted it (to its original horse) what size girth I’d need. Turns out it was way too short, thanks to @milliepops, I’ve sorted that by going up 2 sizes for that horse. Everyone I know with a monoflap uses girth’s that are too short.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I’ve heard this. I currently ride in one as it’s what I had that fitted.
I was guilty of the too short girth. Having always had long girth’s prior to this I asked the saddler who fitted it (to its original horse) what size girth I’d need. Turns out it was way too short, thanks to @milliepops, I’ve sorted that by going up 2 sizes for that horse. Everyone I know with a monoflap uses girth’s that are too short.

Hm. Not everyone I know uses too short of a girth with a monoflap. But I will say most with a monoflap or dressage saddle (long billets) do use too short of a girth. I see it in photos everywhere too. Mine stops right at my flap/bottom of my saddle pad. I use the longest girth possible. Seemed like common sense at the time.

 

[Red-1]

I had a Butet XC, about as small as they get. As it was so expensive, it was the only saddle I owned. Rode for hours in it. Did dressage, hacking, everything. No back issues. I did use a wool half pad.

 

[poiuytrewq]

It

Hm. Not everyone I know uses too short of a girth with a monoflap. But I will say most with a monoflap or dressage saddle (long billets) do use too short of a girth. I see it in photos everywhere too. Mine stops right at my flap/bottom of my saddle pad. I use the longest girth possible. Seemed like common sense at the time.

Yes it does now but when you don’t know and a *good recommended saddler tells you how they should fit ?‍

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It

Yes it does now but when you don’t know and a *good recommended saddler tells you how they should fit ?‍

I know. I've been let down or misinformed by fitters before, so I get it. You would think the professional would give the best guidance ?

 

[paddi22]

that interesting about the girth on the mono flaps, I bet mine is wrong. ideally where should the buckle be when done up properly?

 

[gunnergundog]

https://www.fairfaxsaddles.com/girths/girth-fitting

'When fitting the Performance Girth, the aim is to get the buckles away from the pressure-sensitive area behind the elbows – so fit the longest length possible.
As a general rule, on a short girth (dressage or monoflap saddle) fit the girth’s top edge as close to the bottom edge of the saddlecloth as possible when fully tightened. Obviously, this depends on the size of the saddlecloth, so an alternative guide on a dressage saddle is to have just two billet holes remaining on both sides of the saddle. '

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I've found it interesting when shopping for a used monoflap. The wear on the billets is often on the lower holes. Mine tend to be higher.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Going back to the original post, I had a Black Country Wexford a few years ago and loved it. Super comfortable. Horse was fine in it too. I love Black Country saddles, but there is no one around that sells them.

I wonder what the fitters point was about the Equipe tree. Maybe about their carbon fiber one?

 

[DabDab]

I think it is possibly the narrow twist in the equipes that make them less ideal for longer rides, rather than them being monoflap.

I've certainly ridden for hours in monoflaps and had no issues.

As above, my girth is buckled just below the saddle flaps on both sides.

 

[Steerpike]

Odd if you go to an endurance ride I'm sure you would see quite a few monoflap saddles all be it endurance makes, I have 4 which I've used and have been in the saddle for many hours with no problems.

 

[ihatework]

There really isn’t a right answer here. Mono flap jumps were designed really for competition. They do their job great for that purpose. Over time they have become fashionable and filtered their way down into every day leisure riding. Whether they suit you for leisure will probably depend on your body shape, riding style, preferences etc. Whether they suit the horse will depend on a variety of factors as well.

So back to the question of a Black Country Wexford. I really rate BC as a saddle brand. The Wexford is more of a bulky comfort saddle, hybrid between GP and jump. On paper it’s a good choice for hacking and hunting. Stands more chance of being suitable for the horse. Depends really if you like riding in it.

If you want ultimate comfort in a jump saddle the double flap devocoux might be worth a look. More refined than the Wexford. But a traditionalist saddler might make a bit of a face.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Ok, re the Devocoux I've heard they really aren't that great for the horse and are known for making a horse's back sore, even when fit to the horse. I think they look lovely and riding in them feels nice, but for the horse, not so much. I don't know if it's just the circles I'm in, but they don't have the best reputation. I'm not sure how much truth there is to it. I've had my hands on a few, but wouldn't buy one.

On a related note, what is with the skinny flat panels on the Voltaire saddles?

Obviously I could discuss this all day.

Black Country also offers serge panels which some horses quite like.

 

[Michen]

I have heard the same about Devoucoux.

Oh it's tricky. I don't care what I spend but I want to invest in a really nice saddle that will ideally go on both horses (current monarch gp and jump do). Black Country aren't producing anything at the moment and my saddler is waiting to get some in (likely another 12 weeks) so can't even try them.

She suggested I look at the Ideal T&T as well so might give that a go if I can try one.

However I am also wondering if it ain't broke don't fix it. Bog has always gone very nicely in the Monarch, it's never caused him any issues, I have sentimental attachment to it and it fits Bear as well (I have another Monarch that is the same but a GP so more straight cut). I don't think my riding is going to suddenly improve with a new saddle

I could just buy another Monarch jump and be done with it so both horses have the jump version for when being ridden at the same time and perhaps try and get my arse in as many different saddles over the next few months as I can. But I think based on what everyones said I will rule out the ones my saddler warned me off for hunting and long hacks.

 

[IrishMilo]

Sounds a bit like mumbo jumbo! I absolutely loved my monoflap - literally the most comfy saddle I've ever sat in.

 

[Branna]

My saddle fitter advises that all close contact saddles (not just monoflap) are best used with sheepskin for the horses comfort - which she agrees negates the close contact factor.

Michen re. your last post - my years of saddle searching has ended up very much "if it ain't broke don't fix it". My mare has just turned 14 and she is still using the Bates saddles I bought as a temporary when she was 4 or 5. Have looked at others several times but have never found anything quite perfect enough to spend out the ££££ when what we have works for both of us!

 

[Squeak]

Two independent saddlers have told me that the monoflap and close contact shouldn't be used for long periods or everyday schooling.

In the past I had them and rode in them everyday on a variety of horses and it seemed fine. Then I got that one horse that had a problem because of it. I now have a 'normal' dressage saddle that I school in everyday and a monoflap jump that I only use for jumping.

 

[Scarlett]

I'd love to know if there's actually anything that proves this in regards to cc or monoflap saddles, or if its just opinion and a bit of Chinese whispers?

I've ridden my horses in Cc saddles for years. Hard work, lightwork, hacking, jumping, schooling. A mixture of Equipe dressage and jump, a couple of old Barnsby CC jump saddles, Frank Baines Elan CC (gorgeous saddle, shouldn't have sold it), and Devoucoux (which did get too narrow and pinch after a year, but the horse changed shape a lot). I moved to foam paneled CC saddles because they have always been far easier to fit to my horses and I like how they feel. I have NEVER had a sore back from any of these saddles. The last sore back was from a flocked saddle that got lumpy, oh and a CAIR Bates.

My point is that with saddles, as with most things, for every rule there is an exception. There are plenty of pro yards out there who use these saddles every day, on horses, who work far harder and far longer than any HHO horse, without an issue. Doesn't mean we should all do it, but we shouldn't demonise it.

I have one horse now in a flocked saddle, a Black Country Quantum, because it was the right fit for the horse (shark fin wither so needs a K panel), it's a very similar feel to my foam CC saddles and the horse goes well in it, but the panels are very neat compared to other flocked saddles I've seen so I do wonder if to be CC there's a compromise regardless of foam or flock?