Close to putting shoes back on.. Some advice please

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robthecob

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Whoops accidentally cross posted this in cr.

Yawn worthy I know, sorry! Unfortunately while I can take snippets of information from other threads I feel I need some help from those in the know. So if any passionate feet people reading this please help me out.

My 9 year old Mare has been barefoot since December, originally doing ok'ish but now seeming to struggle a little. "what does she eat" I hear you all shout! Well she is on a low sugar diet, fast fibre, linseed, yee sac, pro hoof, devils claw (for sacroilliac problems), nourish (a trinity balancer) and recently a pro/per biotic and ulcer calm.

I had our newly appointed and very well thought of trimmer out 3 weeks ago who said not to trim stay the moment as we had other issues to deal with in the way of ulcers. He said she was landing toe first but that we need to address the other problems before the feet, so he left them we started our ulcer treatments (Christ I can already tell this is going to be long) and 3 weeks on I think I see an improvement to what I would call the other ulcer symptoms, the grumpy belly, looking a bit bloated and pregnant etc, however the feet are still crap. Well they look good, they are strong, they have never chipped, the mare is I would say as sound as she normally is but she is just so incredibly slow.

This slowness is more noticeable when walking round the yard which is mainly hard concrete and she is actually better when ridden and 'pushed' a bit more probably not the right term but when I am leading her, in or out she just doesn't have any spring to her step, infact a snail would have more spring to her step. I am almost (that should be in italic) certain its the feet but she does have on going soundness issues, mainly sacroilliac problems.

I really don't know what to do, I stable her in the day on soaked hay 9am till 7pm and turn out in a muzzle at night, in an ideal world where the grass is not my enemy she would be out 24/7 to keep the rest of her creaky bits moving.

What am I missing? What can I do? I'm on a livery yard so whilst I understand the idyllic track systems etc it just isn't going to happen. I'm getting to the point of where I am thinking of putting front shoes back on for fear of her putting too much weight behind to compensate for any foot pain and damaging her self further.

any advice welcome.
 
If the feet need trimming I fail to understand why being on ulcer medication should prevent the trimmer from trimming the feet. In fact it sounds to me like complete rubbish and I'd want another trimmer.

The toe first landing is not going to alter until you can get her moving to build up the back of her foot. She isn't going to move if she is uncomfortable.

Your only options right now, I think, are to boot or shoe. Until you get her gut stabilised then the foot problems are likely to continue, so you probably have some weeks left to go before that happens.

I would be very wary of shoeing a horse showing a toe first landing, it is the known cause of ddft damage. Shoeing may prevent her from building the back of the foot like she needs to and if so the toe first landing will continue and is likely to eventually cause ddft damage and lameness.

I would also suggest testing for Cushings and IR, since your diet is good and you are already heavily restricting grass intake.
 
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Sorry I probably didn't explain he trimmer situation very well. His first visit was only 8 weeks post the previous trim and the mare did not have anything that really needed doing with the foot and my trimmer, who I won't name directly but is ukhncp and I am in Leicester felt that we were not quite there with the diet probably down to the ulcer issues. Hope that makes sense. He is the exact opposite to my previous trimmer who would have trimmed anyway and told me all was fine.

Cushings and IR test probably a good idea though.

I do have boots, I was wondering if weather buying pads and booting for turn out may help comfort, increasing movement etc...
 
robthecob said:
Sorry I probably didn't explain he trimmer situation very well. His first visit was only 8 weeks post the previous trim and the mare did not have anything that really needed doing with the foot and my trimmer, who I won't name directly but is ukhncp and I am in Leicester felt that we were not quite there with the diet probably down to the ulcer issues. Hope that makes sense. He is the exact opposite to my previous trimmer who would have trimmed anyway and told me all was fine.

Cushings and IR test probably a good idea though.

I do have boots, I was wondering if weather buying pads and booting for turn out may help comfort, increasing movement etc...
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It's worth trying the pads.
When is the trimmer coming again?
 
robthecob said:
We did not set a date, it was more of a call me when you need me....
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Well I would call and get them out for some advice if a trim is not needed .
What ulcer treatment did the horse have ?
I would try pads and boots for turn out and for leading in hand about the place
Is the toe first landing new ? Or was it like that before.
 
I am not an expert by any means but am travelling the same path as you. My mare sounds identical to yours, a bit older and without the ulcer problems so not so complicated. After 7 months without shoes we still struggle - she hates walking on gravel and whilst her feet look great she is still flat soled ( but slowly getting there) and in walk wil land toe first if not jollied along.

However this is the 2nd time I have tried barefoot and I caved in and put front shoes on the first time and she was no better If I am honest and I hated seeing the shoes on her and knew I was only masking any problem and longer term not really helping her. This time I am persevering because there are small improvements albeit very slowly and I boot her to ride which works fine. I have lowered my expectations as to how quick she will improve, I had her hay analysed and her minerals adjusted accordingly, put her on a diet and work her more. I think she is still uncomfortable somewhere in her feet (the vet has given her a basic lameness check and said she is fine so short of MRI and xraying for no obvious reason I don't think anything major is going on) but I think shoeing her will only make the problem worse. She is improving, her hoof is slowly changing but they are tiny changes. I hoped she would be one of these rock crunching beasts straightaway but for us it's not to be and I need to find the solution for her.

Don't give in, definitely try her in boots, sort her diet out as well as you can to help the ulcers and give it more time.
 
I would say she has never reached a true heel first landing but watching her drag her self about on the end of a lead rope it looks worse now than it did, however it is probably the same as before when being ridden forwards, she is not even complaining about gravel or small stones when being ridden out and that is without boots.

She is on ulcer calm, only ulcer symptoms are grumpiness when touching belly and looking a bit bloated but tucked under if that makes sense. She is not stressy or underweight, has never cribbed... I could get her scoped but with all the previous injuries she is LOU and Gastroguard is mega money.

Simple systems feeds was mentioned to me. Has anyone barefoot changed and noticed a difference. Have been holding off whilst trialling the ulcer calm for fear of changing too much at once and not knowing what works.

Jericho, sorry to hear you are going through the same problems. My mares feet sound similar to yours, strong but lacking concavity. Did your vet think anything else was hindering the process? I can really see why people put shoes on, but it's also the exact opposite of why I took them off. I want to see what's happening, she has so many other issues that I think poorly balanced feet may have played a part in and I want to keep her as sound as possible for as long as possible.
 
I'd put front shoes back on today. I appreciate it is nice to be natural but what we ask of them isn't natural so we need to make allowances.
 
Ok so the horse is not on ulcer treatment and you don't know if it has ulcers you are guessing and giving a supplement that can't treat ulcers just help manage a horse who has had ulcers treated.
You need to give it more time discuss your exercise plan with the trimmer IME BF horses do best with very regular six or seven days a week work my OH hunter finished the season ( shod ) with a very worrying toe first landing we are just seeing consistent heel first now I am just starting riding ( opposed to leading and lunging )and we are beginning to see the benefits.
You say the horse is not sore on stones ( have I that right) so what is the issue shoeing her wont establish heel first landing keeping the horse moving BF is the chance of her doing so.
Am I missing something?
 
Hi OP

my daughter's mare sounds just the same although without the ulcer problem (although now i'm wondering as she is bloated & grumpy!)

I caved in & put front shoes on her last week (Mon) as daughter wanted to do a ten mile sponsored ride & also the summer holidays are coming & she will be worked more.
To be honest it hasn't made any difference & i wish that i hadn't bothered.

Like you i don't know what to do for the best. She was on Pure Feeds 'Easy' but it is a pain for me to get hold of so i moved her onto D&H 'Safe & Sound'.

I believe that it's the grass as although she is in a pretty bare paddock, it is growing like mad & she eats everything including the hedges. I would love to have her out overnight but it is just too much so i'm constantly juggling as she hates being out in the day because of the flies.

Please let me know if you come up with an answer :-)
 
HazyXmas said:
Hi OP

my daughter's mare sounds just the same although without the ulcer problem (although now i'm wondering as she is bloated & grumpy!)

I caved in & put front shoes on her last week (Mon) as daughter wanted to do a ten mile sponsored ride & also the summer holidays are coming & she will be worked more.
To be honest it hasn't made any difference & i wish that i hadn't bothered.

Like you i don't know what to do for the best. She was on Pure Feeds 'Easy' but it is a pain for me to get hold of so i moved her onto D&H 'Safe & Sound'.

I believe that it's the grass as although she is in a pretty bare paddock, it is growing like mad & she eats everything including the hedges. I would love to have her out overnight but it is just too much so i'm constantly juggling as she hates being out in the day because of the flies.

Please let me know if you come up with an answer :-)
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Sounds like all of us it's no rain and hot sun we need for a while the grass is a nightmare at the moment we have more than I have ever seen .
 
Yes you are missing something but I may not be explaining my self very well.

My overall point I guess is that I am limiting grass, feeding correctly, following the "rules" yet I have a horse that although comfortable on stones is still toe first landing. I am quite obviously missing something but I don't know what. That is what this excersise is all about, I am wondering what I am missing, I expect it is diet related, the feet look great but are not great.

My trimmer looked at my mare and suspected ulcers, we thought this might be the diet issue, because the hind gut is not working as well as it could. So yes I feed ulcer calm and I also feed a pre/pro biotic. I could scope in the future but we were feeling our way to see if this made a difference, which I think it has to the sore belly. I am uninsured as mare are is LOU
 
Hazy Xmas sorry to hear you are having problems too.

It is difficult and at the moment I feel like I am throwing everything at it with the hope that something will stick, so different to how I handle the rest of my life, I find it quite unnerving in a way.

Do you muzzle your mare? Do you feed soaked hay? I turn out at night only as I believe this is better for them. Is your Mare overweight?

This very wet hot summer isn't helping :( my mate jokes that the summer she first took her old mare barefoot was the wettest on record, I think I might be challenging her.

You could use boots with pads for your mare, your daughter could still do the distance rides with them on providing they fit correctly.

Did you notice any difference with pure easy?
 
robthecob said:
Yes you are missing something but I may not be explaining my self very well.

My overall point I guess is that I am limiting grass, feeding correctly, following the "rules" yet I have a horse that although comfortable on stones is still toe first landing. I am quite obviously missing something but I don't know what. That is what this excersise is all about, I am wondering what I am missing, I expect it is diet related, the feet look great but are not great.

My trimmer looked at my mare and suspected ulcers, we thought this might be the diet issue, because the hind gut is not working as well as it could. So yes I feed ulcer calm and I also feed a pre/pro biotic. I could scope in the future but we were feeling our way to see if this made a difference, which I think it has to the sore belly. I am uninsured as mare are is LOU
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I think you need to give it more time .
Your trimmer can think" might have ulcers " but you not treating ulcers so if it is ulcers what you are doing is not going to clear them.
In your place I would talk with my vet but personally toe first landing is a reason to stay out of shoes not go back to them do you vary the surface you work on ie some grass some road some work on a surface , I found lunging on a surface really helped my OH's hunter to develop that heel first landing.
Really in a summer like this we should really be keeping most horses on restricted grass unless you are really lucky to have poor grazing I have never seen grass like it here so you really are not doing anything very different by being BF.
 
I haven't any advise but good luck :) I'm having to travel the barefoot route with my lad who has had his feet ruined by shoeing ( before I had him) and now iv got the job to give him new feet as his last chance.
Big hugs and good luck
 
robthecob said:
Hazy Xmas sorry to hear you are having problems too.

It is difficult and at the moment I feel like I am throwing everything at it with the hope that something will stick, so different to how I handle the rest of my life, I find it quite unnerving in a way.

Do you muzzle your mare? Do you feed soaked hay? I turn out at night only as I believe this is better for them. Is your Mare overweight?

This very wet hot summer isn't helping :( my mate jokes that the summer she first took her old mare barefoot was the wettest on record, I think I might be challenging her.

You could use boots with pads for your mare, your daughter could still do the distance rides with them on providing they fit correctly.

Did you notice any difference with pure easy?
Click to expand...

I'm finding it hugely frustrating :-( really wish that they could talk.......

We don't muzzle her, she is in a very poor paddock with a 3 yr old filly & they spend a lot of time grooming, i couldn't stop her doing that as she seems so depressed as it is. She has had two foals & really enjoys the interaction with the youngster.

She is slightly overweight, probably a 3.5 out of 5. It is difficult as she is connemara so a very good doer. She had a ligament injury last summer & is only just coming back into full work, which hasn't helped the weight issue. Yes, i feed soaked hay or small amount of high fibre haylage.

The shoeing is a constant debate in our house as we hope that the mare will return to eventing in the Autumn & daughter wants her shod all round so she can use studs. While i know that some people do event without shoes i feel that as it's not me that is riding, i must support my daughter in whatever she feels is best for the pair of them.

I had hoped to keep her BF until end of Aug then shoe until Dec, then remove again.
 
Sorry, just read the Pure Easy bit.

It's hard to say, she did seem to be doing well BF but that was before the grass came through, i have thought that maybe i should go back to it. It is a really nice feed, looks very tasty & the horses all love it (mind you they seem to eat anything!)

I agree that overnight is best, i'm working up to it, she's going out for 3 nights a week at the moment. In an ideal World i'd put her out at 10pm & bring in at 8am but she's a couple of miles away & i'm usually too shattered to go out again at 10 :-(
 
Is there any thrush in the frog? I mean even a tiny bit as that could be enough to make her walk toe first if she is sensitive.
 
HazyXmas said:
I'm finding it hugely frustrating :-( really wish that they could talk.......

We don't muzzle her, she is in a very poor paddock with a 3 yr old filly & they spend a lot of time grooming, i couldn't stop her doing that as she seems so depressed as it is. She has had two foals & really enjoys the interaction with the youngster.

She is slightly overweight, probably a 3.5 out of 5. It is difficult as she is connemara so a very good doer. She had a ligament injury last summer & is only just coming back into full work, which hasn't helped the weight issue. Yes, i feed soaked hay or small amount of high fibre haylage.

The shoeing is a constant debate in our house as we hope that the mare will return to eventing in the Autumn & daughter wants her shod all round so she can use studs. While i know that some people do event without shoes i feel that as it's not me that is riding, i must support my daughter in whatever she feels is best for the pair of them.

I had hoped to keep her BF until end of Aug then shoe until Dec, then remove again.
Click to expand...

This is what I hope to do with my OH's hunter do autumn hunting with him shoeless then shoe before the opening meet and take them off at the end of the season should be four sets may be five first time I have tied this so it will be interesting to see how it works as a system we have to work this horse all of the year because he's a very very good doer.
 
robthecob said:
We did not set a date, it was more of a call me when you need me....
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Well I suggest you need him now?

Either that or yes, put the shoes back on.

If you can't get to the bottom of the problem (and it's near impossible to know what it is over the internet) then you need to give him some relief. I'm not interested in her toe-first landing at this stage - they will walk toe-first on occasion so that could be a red herring. I'm worried about her reluctance to move.
 
Vicky - I don't think so, I could do a clean trax treatment or something just incase. I guess we have pretty much perfect thrush conditions. There definately isn't any noticeable thrush, are there some subtle symptoms (other than landing toe first) that I could look for or shall I just treat as though we have it?
 
HazyXmas said:
so i moved her onto D&H 'Safe & Sound'.

I believe that it's the grass as although she is in a pretty bare paddock, it is growing like mad & she eats everything including the hedges.
Click to expand...

Safe and Sound sounds like an ideal feed on the write up.....but when you look closer, it is 5% sugar and 5% starch - so 10% which is the highest you should ever consider feeding. Add that TO the sugar levels in the grass at this time of year and you have an answer.

I don't know what is in the S&S - is it alfalfa?
 
robthecob said:
I have a horse that although comfortable on stones is still toe first landing. I am quite obviously missing something but I don't know what.
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I think you are missing TIME.

Your horse is comfortable on stones? That is not a horse who needs shoes.

She is toe first landing. That is a horse who definitely does NOT need shoes. They won't stop a toe first landing but the will prevent the work the heels need to have in order to go heel-first.

Time and work will build up the back of her foot so that she can go heel first landing. You must, as others have pointed out, ensure that her frog has no thrush in it. How deep is the split down the middle of it? (Called the central sulcus). You might need to use boots with pads in for a while in order to stimulate the back half of her foot properly. Are her frogs in contact with the floor?

Having said that, it is a mystery why a horse who is not uncomfortable on stones would be dragging itself behind you on the lead rope. You need the trimmer back to see her I think.
 
I've just read this thread and have to say I did get a bit confused in various places.

But I think I have it.

OP has horse that is ok on stones but lands toe first and has to be dragged when led? Someone tell me if I have this wrong?

Seems to me that we have more than one issue here.

Horse that is ok on stones doesn't need shoes

Horse not landing heel first doesn't need shoes - but may need examination by an experienced hoof care professional to make sure there is no physical reason preventing this. Remembering that horses that are slopping along will not land heel first, and the only real way to tell is to march them with a bit of pace in walk on a very level smooth surface.

As previous posters have mentioned - any heel pain such as from thrush will discourage a heel first landing.

Horse having to be dragged when led. Well there could be innumerable reasons for this and many of them having nothing whatsoever to do with hooves.
 
Havent read all the replies but I would put boots on to see if she improves. If you dont have boots see if you can borrow some just for the day to try and then walk her out in hand and if possible ride - will give you a much better idea of what to do next and put your mind at rest if you do decide to keep with the barefoot.

Just another thought, have you had her back checked ? if she is ok on stones as others have said but not landing heel first could it be the pain is elsewhere and she is compensating with the toe first landing !!
 
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