Coat colour question for appy breeders - what do you think?

Gingernags

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Started out like this...


Finn2weeks085.jpg


Winter went darker

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Been getting lighter again

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But this is under the bit they clipped off when he had his op...

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And this was last night, scuse blurriness but he would NOT stand still!

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So whats he doing with his coat - are we eventually heading leopard????
 

KarynK

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Have to be quick will think later this evening. What was dad again? Definately will get more white in the coat which might well reveal more spots, how fast it will go depends and how many spots also is dependant on some factors, will post some pictures later this evening.
 

KarynK

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More spots due me thinks as he fades, will take some pics and post them tonight for you
 

KarynK

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This is the filly of mine out of my TB (Brown TB (no sabino or white) x Bay Snowcap App with rapid varnish)
As a baby about 2 weeks old
Kiera1week007-1.jpg


At about 3mts with Rosa aged 3 wks (Ch extended snowcap with varnish x Ch snowcap over hips no varnish) on the right.
IMG_07982-1.jpg


Then in the Autumn this is Kiera not much of a change
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Then 1 week ago oops
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Then tonight the white is going she has more white hairs in the coat than last year but not a much as last week, the white fluff has gone on this bit! You can see lots of additional spots appearing too where it was chestnut last year.
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This one I think will end up a near leopard like her half sister pictured last week aged 4 who had a bit more white as a foal than Kiera
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Montage-Brook150.jpg
Bit arty this one but it's the only one I have on Photobucket ATM!!!

I think possibly Finn will end up like these two but he might be slower getting there.
 

KarynK

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Looking at the picture of FInn's dad It looks like he might also have the snowcap marking as well as leopard spots, the stallion I used is the other way round he has leopard from his dam but it is hidden by his snowcap which is extended. Haven't yet got to the bottom of how this works.

The snowcap hiding leopard versions throw a lot more coloured foals some claim 100%, but their most colourful foals are always from solid mares, so too many of them in a closed breed and the spots begin to disappear, they need solids to perform.

The ones like Finns dad are lesser colour producers on solid mares but throw snowcaps and spotted blankets or both like themselves. They often show a large pink blanket of skin over the rump when wet and the spots on that blanket are spaced out and large.

This filly of mine came from two what some would describe as homozygous parents and this is all I got! (her baby pic is above scratching with kiera) this is her in the autumn
IMG_0993.jpg

and now (she too has the white fluff but again it is moulting out to less white more chestnut
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Personally my sister and I do not think this filly has inherited any spots at all, her father has a snowcap that covers his rump and just in front of his hips http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ma+thunderstorm
and her mother is an extended snowcap the white one below yet all I got was varnish alone! Though she is a super filly and will go reining in europe in a few years so coat colour matters not at all, but just when you think you have it worked out!!!!
 

KarynK

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Thank you they are very different every day you look at them, very sensible horses with a sense of humour and fun. They are always up to something when your back is turned and take great delight in being where they are not supposed to be!
brooketheiving.jpg
 

Enfys

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Perhaps he'll stop at something like this?

DSCF1516.jpg


Maybe (his name) is what they call a 'marble' here, he does have spots on his rump they just aren't clear in the photo. My other appy is red roan too, but whiter with 3 red stockings and blaze.
 

KarynK

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Have you got any baby pictures of him? Did he start out solid or with white hairs or a coat pattern showing?

The rapidity of the fading and the extent seems to have a link to the extent of the white markings as a foal, certainly if there is any white forward of the shoulder or in isolated islands at the front end, especially in the chest region or near the ears, they seem to fade faster and it also seems to be an indicator for the fact that they have the varnish as a foal. I think I saw that in one of Finn's foal pictures last year.
 

xena_wales

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Aren't near leopards born as near leopards?? Pic of the mare I had on loan when she had her baby:


I know a reasonable amount about normal colour genetics - are there any good sites for spotty genetics?
 

KarynK

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The problem is with appaloosa coat patterns is that no genes have yet been identified responsible for them, so there is no genetics to say exactly what constitues a near leopard as opposed to a spotted blanket or a leopard, I suspect the answer will be complex! I do remember being told by the project that they were 6 months away from isolating the gene in 2003! However the projects explanations of inheritance do not explain what I am seeing.

My sister and I think that there are several genes at work and that the snowcap is separate from the leopard and the varnish itself is can be inherited separately and on its own as in Rosa above, who from two supposedly homozygous parents got just the varnish gene and minimum characteristics. This is a link to my sisters paper following a base coat survey my she conducted to see if base coat colour affected the extent and inheritance of appaloosa coat patterns. It was Lynn that theorised the black and tan gene for coat colour before it was found recently!

http://www.brushbow.co.uk/src/speciesmenu.htm

The other reading I would recommend is Jeneatte Gower's Horse Colour explained, who has similar theories on appaloosa inheritance.

In appaloosa circles people describe the horse as it is, what would be more helpful would be to describe what it was born then what it is. So for instance in the filly above I would describe her as born extended white spotted blanket faded over 4 years to near leopard.

Like I say usually when they have white forward of the shoulder they fade to near leopard, however since these types usually emanate from one solid parent you cannot be sure how much that parent affects the rapidity of fading from the varnish. Of the Snowcap foals coming from 2 appaloosa parents the varnish if present appears to be much more rapid in it's affect, this could be because it is inherited from both parents.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Kiera's coat and how fast she fades, as she is so similar in markings to her half sister Brooke, but they are by different stallions.

Then you have some horses born true fewspot that produce solid offspring and some seemingly solid horses producing appaloosa from nowhere, ask JANA on here she got a shock from her solid mare and a TB stallion!
 

xena_wales

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Um, I think I'm going to have to re-read your post tomorrow when I'm more awake - lol!! Thanks for taking the time to reply
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Will also look up the black and tan you referred to.
 

Gingernags

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[ QUOTE ]
and some seemingly solid horses producing appaloosa from nowhere, ask JANA on here she got a shock from her solid mare and a TB stallion!

[/ QUOTE ]

Asti's dam was by a bay TB stallion called Picture Post, out of a welsh mare... and she was a strange one... seen here with Asti as a foal... she was spotty!

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KarynK

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Ah now I would not say bridcatcher at all on this mare, look at the near fore leg, those are almost classic appaloosa markings on that foot what I call flash marks, like you would see on a snowcap and are often see when the coat colour has faded due to varnish, some extended snowcap apps are born with them. I wouldn't mind betting that that mare has a bit of mottled skin somewhere and maybe even a faintly striped hoof ???
 

Gingernags

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Well I know for a fact the stallion was a bay TB, Picture Post, but her dam's breeding was unknown to us but I did see a pony mare from the same dam that was also chestnut but looked like a Sec B, so we have always said than Tini was welsh x TB - the dam being - we thought - likely a B/C cross - which explains the show pony.

Tini (the mare in the pic) always had one or two white spots, but she got more as she got older, and had loads when she was in foal (147 to be precise - we counted!) and she did indeed have a stripy hoof.

We bred her to another TB (a grey) which produced Asti (Finn's Mum - she's the foal in that pic) and I'm pretty sure she has a stripy hoof and just one or two tiny white spots.

So its possible then, that there is a bit of renegade appy somewhere on the dams side that we never knew about?

I wish I could find out! Sadly don't think its possible, most of the leads I'd have going back that far aren't with us any more...
 

KarynK

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Yep I think you will find that Asti's dam is an appaloosa! She has the most minimal of coat patterns and no varnish, which sounds like it was reduced further in Asti but might have left Asti with just enough power to ensure you had a coat pattern with Finn!!

Basically to register an appaloosa you need a coat pattern and two other characteristics, which are mottled skin, around the nose, eyes or usually private parts, stripy hooves, but only those not associated with white markings on the legs (stripy hooves are actually also a result of mottled skin as is a coat pattern) and sclera ( white around the eye). To register as a characteristic you need stripy hooves mottled skin and sclera. Anything less and it is a non characteristic.

But I think that just a bit of mottled skin even stripy teeth is enough for a horse to have the appaloosa if you like breed gene. This is what happened with JANA’s mare on here, a tiny bit of mottled skin and an appaloosa foal!
 
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