Cob riders - getting a 'correct' outline?

[tobiano1984]

I'm still struggling with my portly but energetic cob (turns 7 later this year). I think I've posted a few times on here about him and our outline issues! With a lot of effort he's really coming along, but I'm still really struggling with getting a decent frame in trot. In walk we get there, in canter it's pretty good, but in trot the nose just pokes out. I understand that he's not really built for it - my 3yo just-backed warmblood works in a better frame already. He's got a huge chest and neck (gelded at 4!) and although he's working pretty well from behind (according to my instructor) the outline in trot just isn't coming. At his best, he's still quite in front of the vertical. When I've worked him in a curb (mullen pelham) for showing he can produce a decent outline but then it tends to get a bit too powerful (or as my instructor politely says, a rather advanced outline..!) and not really ideal for Prelim level...

So just wondering how other cob riders have dealt with this. He is, I'd say, heavyweight in frame (in my profile pic although can't tell much from that) - I'll try and find a pic. He's currently in a Myler mullen barrel eggbutt snaffle, dressage legal. He's pretty good with it, I've tried quite a few bits and this seems to be as good as any. I've also worked him a few times in the EquiAmi riding aid and that has helped, he's reaching for the contact more but then he also tends to just plough downwards.

I should throw in that he has a MASSIVE attitude, and everything has to be on his terms. he's very sweet but is a massive know-it-all which is unfortunate as he doesnt really know much! At the moment we're doing a lot of trying to get him off the forehand - turns on the forehand, serpentines, bringing back the trot and pushing on, shoulder in, leg yield etc. As I say, he is actually working pretty correctly - he has a good overtrack in trot (about a foot in walk!) and works over his back, but the head remains nicely poked out.

I'm not sure if this is due to his build, and amount of musculature on his neck? But then he manages it in a curb so I do feel like he's just not trying as hard in a snaffle.

Any tips or thoughts from fellow chunk-riders would be welcome!

 

[be positive]

I would avoid using a pelham and get him into a double which will help more with the dressage work as you can ride on the top rein more easily than you can with a pelham, you can use your normal snaffle as the bridoon and try to ensure you use that not the curb rein to maintain the outline/ contact.

Exercises I used with my cobs, lots of acute transitions, walk to canter really engages the back end and if used in the warm up should help improve the trot, rein back to trot, also helpful, if using leg yield do an upwards transition as you finish to get them pushing forward from the inside hind leg.
Spirals with changes of pace as well as changes within the pace, squares, so you are doing a few steps of turn on the haunches at each corner, I would avoid turn on the forehand as it puts them onto the forehand and disengages the hind leg, leg yield does to a certain extent but because it is a forward movement if used well can be beneficial.

I would also use poles, in a line, raised, on a circle and see what works best to help him, my heavyweight show cob was featherlight in the hand, I spent many hours working on his weakest pace, his canter, and found that the fitter I got him the easier he found it, they are often energetic but cruising rather than working if they can get away with it, he was on a permanent diet while I lost weight riding him daily!!

 

[tobiano1984]

I would avoid using a pelham and get him into a double which will help more with the dressage work as you can ride on the top rein more easily than you can with a pelham, you can use your normal snaffle as the bridoon and try to ensure you use that not the curb rein to maintain the outline/ contact.

Exercises I used with my cobs, lots of acute transitions, walk to canter really engages the back end and if used in the warm up should help improve the trot, rein back to trot, also helpful, if using leg yield do an upwards transition as you finish to get them pushing forward from the inside hind leg.
Spirals with changes of pace as well as changes within the pace, squares, so you are doing a few steps of turn on the haunches at each corner, I would avoid turn on the forehand as it puts them onto the forehand and disengages the hind leg, leg yield does to a certain extent but because it is a forward movement if used well can be beneficial.

I would also use poles, in a line, raised, on a circle and see what works best to help him, my heavyweight show cob was featherlight in the hand, I spent many hours working on his weakest pace, his canter, and found that the fitter I got him the easier he found it, they are often energetic but cruising rather than working if they can get away with it, he was on a permanent diet while I lost weight riding him daily!!

Thanks for this, really helpful. I did try him in a double but found that he didn't respect the bridoon at all, so thought it best to go back to a snaffle until he's working nicely in that before returning to a double to refine it all. My instructor seems to think that he'll be more likely to do collected work etc in a double than a snaffle just because of his shape and way of going.

He's good at walk to canter/canter to walk and that does sharpen him up and lighten him. Just started rein backs so will try going straight into trot! I think I mean turn on the haunches not forehand (get confused as doing TOFs with my 3yo) - squares with walk pirouettes at the corners...

His weakest pace was his canter, but now it's really improved - used to only manage a few strides before it fell apart, now he can do laps until asked to stop..! Sounds familiar - mine is very energetic but only puts the effort into flamboyant stuff, just trotting around doesn't merit much effort - but is improved by adding in lots of shapes and movements!

 

[Badge]

Hi there

I have a clydesdale cross and have had similar issues with him. I think part of it is that they can be quite thick through the throat and need to be ridden slightly more open in front if so. I am trying to post a link to an article that my trainer commented on about training us which might be helpful if it works! We have done lots of lateral work as you have done to get him off his forehand and lighten in front. Personally I would stick to a snaffle and just really insist that he doesn't lean on your hand and carries himself. Good luck and he looks very handsome indeed!

http://outandaboutdressage.co.uk/co-operative-cobs-make-happy-competitors/

 

[tobiano1984]

Cool - good article! Yes I'm very conscious that I don't want to force him into an uncomfortable position (not that he is easily forced into anything!) The problem is that due to the size of his neck and his not-so-small head, when you open him in front he ends up falling onto the forehand - it's a fine balance. Lateral work seems to be the key. He doesn't really lean on my hands, and isn't strong, we had more issue getting him to take the contact forwards - he preferred to do his own thing!

I also think we need to get out above Prelim sooner rather than later, as when he goes well, his way of going is definitely a bit more advanced/collected. I also wonder whether it's worth affiliating - what do you think? Sometimes find it a bit demoralising that we get beaten at unaff. by horses in a 'frame' but not really working properly over their back or even tracking up - just look the part..! I don't know if a correct way of going would be picked up more at BD.

This is the man in question in one of his flamboyant tests - the judge thought he was hilarious!

 

[eggs]

Love the activity!

 

[tobiano1984]

Love the activity!

Haha I can barely sit to it! It gets more uphill - see below (excuse my awful forward position, this had been preceeded by a large buck!) Unfortunately judges at unaff prelim mark it down as lack of submission and resistance/disobedience. He always does what he's told, he just likes to add a bit of flair to boring tests!!

 

[Badge]

Just a little bit up hill then! He's fabulous! Personally I prefer the affiliated as I find the higher level judges seem to look more at the way of going and so give us better marks and use the whole range of marks too. I suppose it depends what you have in your area. As to going above prelim - crack on! What's the worst that can happen.,

 

[tobiano1984]

Just a little bit up hill then! He's fabulous! Personally I prefer the affiliated as I find the higher level judges seem to look more at the way of going and so give us better marks and use the whole range of marks too. I suppose it depends what you have in your area. As to going above prelim - crack on! What's the worst that can happen.,

Just a bit! Thank you I love him to bits! I love his character and work ethic - it's just a bit challenging at times! Interesting - maybe we'll give it a go. In terms of movements, he's technically working at Elementary level at home (in parts, don't think we could string a whole test together yet), I just haven't gone out at Novice because of the whole lack of correct outline thing, feel like we may look a bit out of our league... but I guess we should just take it as a training exercise!

the main unaff venue we go to uses BD listed judges, although I don't think very high level ones...they also do BD competitions but I don't know if the same judges would be used. And funny you should say about marks, I do notice that they tend to just stick within 1 -1.5 mark range throughout tests (not just mine, but friends too)

 

[Badge]

Definitely go out at novice then if your trainer is happy! As a clever boy he might be better in a busier test as there is more to keep his brain occupied and less chance for him to take over! i wish you all the best with him - he looks so much fun and do keep us updated with how you get on.

 

[tobiano1984]

Definitely go out at novice then if your trainer is happy! As a clever boy he might be better in a busier test as there is more to keep his brain occupied and less chance for him to take over! i wish you all the best with him - he looks so much fun and do keep us updated with how you get on.

I've got a lesson tomorrow so will discuss with my trainer...she did say that he probably wouldn't come into his own until Ele and above for the very reason you point out above. Thanks so much! Encouraging words are needed sometimes

 

[puppystitch]

Definitely try a novice - it's more interesting and the increased movements will give him more to think about. You might get a couple of comments about outline, but it'll only be a point or two. Ride your markers accurately and you're most of the way there. He looks brilliant fun - I'd rather be laughing my way through a test than miserable like so many faces on the horses that look the part

 

[AdorableAlice]

Our young cob is very common through the gullet and can curl up like a coiled spring giving a dreadful over bent shape. He is only 41/2 and was broken last summer. He, like the op's horse, is very willing and rewarding to work with but getting him to go correctly can be tricky. We take the view that we can only work with what conformation the horse has and try to make the best of it. He will do some work and the decide his head is too heavy for his neck to support !

He has only done W/T tests so far and the judges have been consistent in their comments mainly complementary about paces, but lack of balance and tendency to drop behind vertical. Well with a head the size of a small car what can be expected !! Hopefully he will gain strength and cadence as he ages and maybe he might surprise us. Never under estimate a nice cob.

Wheel barrow required for head moment !

 

[tobiano1984]

Definitely try a novice - it's more interesting and the increased movements will give him more to think about. You might get a couple of comments about outline, but it'll only be a point or two. Ride your markers accurately and you're most of the way there. He looks brilliant fun - I'd rather be laughing my way through a test than miserable like so many faces on the horses that look the part

I guess -can't hurt to try! In his first Intro last year, we actually had a judge who appreciated his quirks - he won on over 70 and her comment was 'this is a horse that makes you smile!' - I was also laughing my way around the test - if we achieve nothing else we will make a few people giggle!

Accurate markers can be an issue - in the ring he does try to make it up himself and will randomly change pace at a marker, never does it at home!

 

[tobiano1984]

Our young cob is very common through the gullet and can curl up like a coiled spring giving a dreadful over bent shape. He is only 41/2 and was broken last summer. He, like the op's horse, is very willing and rewarding to work with but getting him to go correctly can be tricky. We take the view that we can only work with what conformation the horse has and try to make the best of it. He will do some work and the decide his head is too heavy for his neck to support !

He has only done W/T tests so far and the judges have been consistent in their comments mainly complementary about paces, but lack of balance and tendency to drop behind vertical. Well with a head the size of a small car what can be expected !! Hopefully he will gain strength and cadence as he ages and maybe he might surprise us. Never under estimate a nice cob.

He's lovely! Yes we get comments about balance a lot. But that will come...

 

[FfionWinnie]

I've got a cob and a Welsh cob. I've spent a million hours (small exaggeration) schooling the cob and have similar issues. She basically knows it all and who am I to tell her otherwise.

The Welsh cob was completely broken physically and mentally and badly ridden before I got her yet she is catching up on the cob despite being so far behind to start with and having a lot less schooling and I've owned her half the time.

Obviously the cob is still the best but I do think the shape of them and their clever little cobby know all brains does make it a lot harder! Worth it tho.

 

[tobiano1984]

I've got a cob and a Welsh cob. I've spent a million hours (small exaggeration) schooling the cob and have similar issues. She basically knows it all and who am I to tell her otherwise.

The Welsh cob was completely broken physically and mentally and badly ridden before I got her yet she is catching up on the cob despite being so far behind to start with and having a lot less schooling and I've owned her half the time.

Obviously the cob is still the best but I do think the shape of them and their clever little cobby know all brains does make it a lot harder! Worth it tho.

Totally! Funnily enough I have another - an Irish cob/SH type who was mentally and physically broken 2 years ago - and yet he's out eventing BE this year and merrily competing in 90cm SJ and Novice dressage, whilst my spoilt, nicely brought up cob who's never experienced any sort of hardship is far more tricky! The Irish one is clever in a sensible, survival of the fittest kind of way, but knows which side his bread is buttered (had that beaten in to him!) so just gets on with what he's told. Cody on the other hand...our latest struggle is doing a square halt at random points in the arena. Cue to halt, nice square halt, then suddenly thrown into leg yield/rein back/turn on fore/turn on haunches...whatever he deems acceptable as the next move. Infuriating!! But my trainer keeps telling me - the Irish one will make a nice little eventer but probably won't dressage above Novice, whereas Cody could easily manage Grand Prix moves IF he listens for 5 minutes. I think we will have to stick to Freestyle! God knows what will happen when we introduce tunes...

 

[Leo Walker]

Obviously the cob is still the best but I do think the shape of them and their clever little cobby know all brains does make it a lot harder! Worth it tho.

Mine went away for a month for some professional schooling. He went away green and uneducated but reasonably compliant. He came back having had a forward button installed and having discovered medium trot. Medium trot was all we got for a long time :lol:

 

[AdorableAlice]

Mine went away for a month for some professional schooling. He went away green and uneducated but reasonably compliant. He came back having had a forward button installed and having discovered medium trot. Medium trot was all we got for a long time :lol:

So pleased to read this. Each new trick the carthorse is taught gets stuck and he offers whatever it is all the time. Canter is in now and it is very much 'lets canter'. Better a horse saying yes yes than no no I guess !

 

[FfionWinnie]

Mine went away for a month for some professional schooling. He went away green and uneducated but reasonably compliant. He came back having had a forward button installed and having discovered medium trot. Medium trot was all we got for a long time :lol:

Ha forward is one of her many talents. She would just prefer if I let her make all the decisions!

Couldn't love her cobby face more tho.

 

[Leo Walker]

So pleased to read this. Each new trick the carthorse is taught gets stuck and he offers whatever it is all the time. Canter is in now and it is very much 'lets canter'. Better a horse saying yes yes than no no I guess !

Hes now on full livery at a hunt yard and is dragged out for exercise with the hunt horses 4 days a week. The YO rode him yesterday and text me to say she expected him to be awful after what I'd said, but actually she loves him! She said he was really swinging along and had a lovely keen attitude. I'm way happier than I should be about that :lol:

Ha forward is one of her many talents. She would just prefer if I let her make all the decisions!

Couldn't love her cobby face more tho.

Ah yes, we have that. He knows best about EVERYTHING, even when he doesnt :lol:

 

[Cortez]

Cobs are special little guys and great fun, but it does well to remember that they are not actually designed to be riding horses - they are small draught vanners, which explains many of the problems that occur when trying to do proper riding horse stuff with them. Many find canter incomprehensible, and falling on the shoulders is a default setting for horses designed to pull rather than push. The short thick neck is an advantage for draught but a hindrance for anything else. Most cobs I've had in have been far happier in a curb-type bit and irritated in a snaffle, which doesn't suit their usual mouth conformation (short lips with a big tongue, fleshy bars and low palette).

The majority of cobs are designed to carry their heads in front of the vertical and any that I've seen going in the "normal" dressage position have actually been garrotting themselves, with bulging parotid glands and looking very uncomfortable. Perhaps what is needed is better educated judges? Joke.

 

[FfionWinnie]

That's a very interesting post Cortez. Absolutely agree with the shoulders thing!

 

[tobiano1984]

Great to hear about others! Seems to be a thing, latching on to new tricks. Mine couldn't canter for about a year - wobbled all over the place, now he has his massive jumping canter and it's all he wants to do..!
And very interesting Cortez - mine was so much easier in a plain low ported Pelham, light and pliable, never heavy, really 'up' in front. But alas not dressage legal :-( Hoping I can get him in a double as soon as possible.

 

[kathantoinette]

Cobs are special little guys and great fun, but it does well to remember that they are not actually designed to be riding horses - they are small draught vanners, which explains many of the problems that occur when trying to do proper riding horse stuff with them. Many find canter incomprehensible, and falling on the shoulders is a default setting for horses designed to pull rather than push. The short thick neck is an advantage for draught but a hindrance for anything else. Most cobs I've had in have been far happier in a curb-type bit and irritated in a snaffle, which doesn't suit their usual mouth conformation (short lips with a big tongue, fleshy bars and low palette).

The majority of cobs are designed to carry their heads in front of the vertical and any that I've seen going in the "normal" dressage position have actually been garrotting themselves, with bulging parotid glands and looking very uncomfortable. Perhaps what is needed is better educated judges? Joke.

Yes very interesting - I have a cob and what you have said has also come straight from the mouth of my trainer.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Next time she's knowing it all I'm going to tell her well I suppose that's because you're just a cart horse really Daisy and see if that changes her attitude

My SJ instructor said to me once he is impressed because I do proper horse things with my cobs rather than boring cob things. I wasn't quite sure how to take it so I took it as a compliment lol

 

[C1airey]

So pleased to read this. Each new trick the carthorse is taught gets stuck and he offers whatever it is all the time. Canter is in now and it is very much 'lets canter'. Better a horse saying yes yes than no no I guess !

It's not just youngsters. Reintroduced my 14yr old cob to canter after slowly bringing him back into work post-hock injections.

We cantered everywhere for about a month.