Jay89
Well-Known Member
Is it actually a thing? How common is it? We are looking into getting a working cocker. Any information anyone has on cocker rage and the breed in General would be appreciated!
Cocker rage...
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JillA
Well-Known Member
I had a black male show strain cocker which was given to me as a rager. He wasn't, he was just extremely possessive and had been effectively taught by the "I'll sort 'im out" brigade to be aggressively defensive. He lived to the age of 14, did agility and obedience - he had a triple cross of a stud dog whose temperament was suspect anyway.
I gather it is quite rare and typically they show a blank stare immediately prior to showing the trait. It also affects whole colours and mainly the show strains - as far as I know the workers are fine. The late great John Fisher used to say we breed them to retrieve and hang on to game, then we wonder why they get possessive over it. If you get a dog which is possessive, much is to do with early training and teaching them to give to you for a food reward. Good luck - I love the breed, they are huge fun and usually so cheerful.
I gather it is quite rare and typically they show a blank stare immediately prior to showing the trait. It also affects whole colours and mainly the show strains - as far as I know the workers are fine. The late great John Fisher used to say we breed them to retrieve and hang on to game, then we wonder why they get possessive over it. If you get a dog which is possessive, much is to do with early training and teaching them to give to you for a food reward. Good luck - I love the breed, they are huge fun and usually so cheerful.
Alec Swan
...
I currently have Working Cockers, I breed them, train them, sell the odd one, and generally they are 'my' dogs.
I've never had any dealings with the show variety, and despite what others will tell you, they could be considered two separate breeds, such is their disposition and demeanour. I have never known of "Rage' being present in working dogs, but have witnessed several of the show type being ignorant, and on occasion, dangerous little pigs.
JillA, you've either misquoted John Fisher (who ever he may have been), or he had no understanding of the working gundog. Were he right in the ridiculous claim which you've quoted, then why isn't the same rage evident in other hunting/retrieving breeds, or the retrieving breeds themselves?
Alec.
ETS, JillA, I also have to contradict you on the idea of giving food rewards to gundog puppies when they retrieve. Most would assure the novice that food rewards are actually responsible for making dogs selfish and refusing to work for their owner, preferring to work for themselves, and towards their own ends. Such advice for the novice dog trainer is asking for trouble. a.
I've never had any dealings with the show variety, and despite what others will tell you, they could be considered two separate breeds, such is their disposition and demeanour. I have never known of "Rage' being present in working dogs, but have witnessed several of the show type being ignorant, and on occasion, dangerous little pigs.
JillA, you've either misquoted John Fisher (who ever he may have been), or he had no understanding of the working gundog. Were he right in the ridiculous claim which you've quoted, then why isn't the same rage evident in other hunting/retrieving breeds, or the retrieving breeds themselves?
Alec.
ETS, JillA, I also have to contradict you on the idea of giving food rewards to gundog puppies when they retrieve. Most would assure the novice that food rewards are actually responsible for making dogs selfish and refusing to work for their owner, preferring to work for themselves, and towards their own ends. Such advice for the novice dog trainer is asking for trouble. a.
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Cinnamontoast
Fais pas chier!
I've heard that it affects mostly goldens or reds, whichever colour is currently being used for that colour. I know of a cracking pair of litters on the ground near me now plus 2 of the previous litter, smashing dogs, but extremely lively. My husband called the one we met last week 'a springer on speed'. We have three springers so a valid comment! They are from a working line and are being trained to the gun.
I too would disagree with food rewards for gundogs. I'm training a teeny pup this week, working on recall etc and he gets a ton of praise, not food.
I too would disagree with food rewards for gundogs. I'm training a teeny pup this week, working on recall etc and he gets a ton of praise, not food.
JillA
Well-Known Member
John Fisher was among the first of the dog behaviourists, founder of COAPE and APBC and advocate of positive reinforcement training methods. He wrote numerous books, helped the Metropolitan Police upgrade their training methods and had a very successful practice in the SE of England. He was referring to so-called "rage" (not classic rage which could be regarded as a form of epilepsy)aka extreme possessiveness which presented in certain breeds, notably cockers but also Golden Retrievers in the showing strains as opposed to the working ones. It is rare but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, normally as a result of breeding for looks at the expense of temperament, and possibly also inexperienced handlers. I haven't misquoted him Alec, he had a very wide and varied experience of dogs of all breeds and types and temperaments - I never said it was endemic in the breeds, just a contributory factor, and in his opinion an over presentation of the traits sought in gundogs when bred for looks alone. You yourself have said you have no experience of the show variety of cockers. I have.
As regards food rewards, have you never heard of clicker training?
As regards food rewards, have you never heard of clicker training?