Coffin Joint Arthritis - barefoot an option?

3OldPonies

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Hello everyone, its a while since I posted anything and I could do with some words of H&H wisdom.

Before I start, I'm not trying to replace vet advice or anything like that, I just want to run this past you and see what you all think.

So, I am about to potentially take on a 17 year old with very low grade coffin joint arthritis. He has been lame (1/10th), has had injections, but not the steroid type and his vet has said he's OK for light hacking but no more competitions. All I want is something to hack 2 - 3 times a week and a companion for my old boy who has been on his own since February. His YO tells me that the xrays show little in the way of change at present and there could be at least 5 years hacking if care is taken.

I love having my boys barefoot, I think in light work there is no need for shoes and it helps their mobility longer term because of the reduced effects of concussion, also my field ain't huge and shoes do rip the ground up so badly in winter!! So, do you think that barefoot might help this pony? I'm happy to keep him shod if, but I do wonder if the concussion caused by wearing shoes could accelerate the effects of the arthritis?
 

Sheep

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My horse was diagnosed with DJD in coffin joints a few years ago, initially he was treated with wedge shoes & steroid injections. There was little or no noticeable improvement, so I decided to take his shoes off. He did not improve overnight, but going barefoot helped to improve the overall shape of his feet which in turn seems to have helped with the discomfort.
I’ve since retired him, mostly due to a lack of time (other horse is quite high maintenance). He is easy to keep and enjoying a laid back lifestyle in the field. If I was in the same situation again, I would definitely try the unshod approach.
 

tallyho!

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I think you are right to look to nature if there's something like this going on. I don't know what to say about the arthritis as I can't see what might have caused it but from I've seen and heard in my own research on the subject, hoof imbalance is almost always a major contributor - long toes/high heels/dropped heels/underruns - whatever it is the angle of the toe has obviously strained and damaged the coffin joint as it's working.

Barefoot would give the foot a chance to build up some dorsal hoof strength and build lateral cartilage which is like the hoof's damper as the foot lands - the healthier it is the more shock absorbing it becomes and will actually improve the joint angles in the hoof - in theory.

Why don't you have a look at rockley farm rehab and other cases to see if it's something that will be of benefit? Whilst the vet is there to advise, I find knowing that ultimately, I make the decisions very empowering as the vet can not be expected to know everything. Personally if you do go down that route then it's better to get a professional that has many working and performing barefoot horses under their care.
 

Sheep

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I think you are right to look to nature if there's something like this going on. I don't know what to say about the arthritis as I can't see what might have caused it but from I've seen and heard in my own research on the subject, hoof imbalance is almost always a major contributor - long toes/high heels/dropped heels/underruns - whatever it is the angle of the toe has obviously strained and damaged the coffin joint as it's working.

This sums up my experience & thoughts - and is why the next time I buy a horse, the first thing I will look at will be its feet!
 

ester

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I agree with what you are saying, I think the reduction in concussion because of the increase in soft tissue 'support' etc has to help.

Frank had a coffin joint DJD diagnosis on the basis of blocks, xrays looked ok. I'm not sure the dx was right given that 5 years down the line we seem to have had no progression.
It has meant that due to his uneven wear we don't do self trimming and I make sure his break over stays well back and would only use certain boots (probably only the gloves tread TBH as I think they have the best, and as little as I need to.
 

atropa

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I agree with what you are saying, I think the reduction in concussion because of the increase in soft tissue 'support' etc has to help.

Frank had a coffin joint DJD diagnosis on the basis of blocks, xrays looked ok. I'm not sure the dx was right given that 5 years down the line we seem to have had no progression.
It has meant that due to his uneven wear we don't do self trimming and I make sure his break over stays well back and would only use certain boots (probably only the gloves tread TBH as I think they have the best, and as little as I need to.

Forgive me, I’m relatively new to barefoot and still learning, but from what I’ve read when the horse is allowed to self trim they grow the hoof that they need to help balance and support them. So is it not the case that your horse wears his hooves unevenly because that makes them into the shape that he personally needs? Can you explain why you choose to trim them? Hopefully this doesn’t sound cheeky, it’s a genuine question from someone who needs all the experience and knowledge she can get!
 

ester

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Forgive me, I’m relatively new to barefoot and still learning, but from what I’ve read when the horse is allowed to self trim they grow the hoof that they need to help balance and support them. So is it not the case that your horse wears his hooves unevenly because that makes them into the shape that he personally needs? Can you explain why you choose to trim them? Hopefully this doesn’t sound cheeky, it’s a genuine question from someone who needs all the experience and knowledge she can get!

Nah not cheeky at all always happy to explain :) . In a lot of cases the horse does grow the hoof it needs, in our case it seems not to be the case.
What frank does is that he rolls off the outside/lateral side of the hoof when he lifts his food (because of his knee angle)- importantly he lands flat. He does a wonderful job of trimming that bit the medial side continues to grow, it gets long, and he gets 'jammed up' growth lines on the medial side. If allowed to continue he rolls off the outside more and more as that is where his break over point has moved too. We have done miles and miles of road work and it makes not difference to the medial side. It is possible he might be entirely ok with this, but on the basis of his movement originally I suspect he already had some collateral ligament damage so am keen that he doesn't inadvertently strain anything. He's 24 now and been sound for 5 years so happy to keep as is.

As an aside if you need to boot trimming helps! All of the low profile 'sportier' boots with good break overs are designed for a trimmed hoof- that isn't so relevant to us as he last wore boots June 2016 on our holiday to the new forest as we had to use the stone tracks as it was so wet, prior to that he'd only worn them for an abscess for the previous 3 years.

He is allowed to keep his wonky hind foot :) (spavin that side) and his hinds are pretty much self trimming, I just put a roll on.

This is a very old transitioning photo about 4 months in (I forget quite how flat they were!) but it shows what he does.

420893_10152167882955438_1641555234_n.jpg
 

atropa

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Nah not cheeky at all always happy to explain :) . In a lot of cases the horse does grow the hoof it needs, in our case it seems not to be the case.
What frank does is that he rolls off the outside/lateral side of the hoof when he lifts his food (because of his knee angle)- importantly he lands flat. He does a wonderful job of trimming that bit the medial side continues to grow, it gets long, and he gets 'jammed up' growth lines on the medial side. If allowed to continue he rolls off the outside more and more as that is where his break over point has moved too. We have done miles and miles of road work and it makes not difference to the medial side. It is possible he might be entirely ok with this, but on the basis of his movement originally I suspect he already had some collateral ligament damage so am keen that he doesn't inadvertently strain anything. He's 24 now and been sound for 5 years so happy to keep as is.

As an aside if you need to boot trimming helps! All of the low profile 'sportier' boots with good break overs are designed for a trimmed hoof- that isn't so relevant to us as he last wore boots June 2016 on our holiday to the new forest as we had to use the stone tracks as it was so wet, prior to that he'd only worn them for an abscess for the previous 3 years.

He is allowed to keep his wonky hind foot :) (spavin that side) and his hinds are pretty much self trimming, I just put a roll on.

This is a very old transitioning photo about 4 months in (I forget quite how flat they were!) but it shows what he does.

420893_10152167882955438_1641555234_n.jpg

Thank you very much! I have only just had the shoes taken off about 10 weeks ago and started proper work last week, originally I had planned to get a trimmer in but there seems to be a shortage of them in my area and I read on the Rockley site that they seem to get along very well with self-trimming and their reasons made sense to me. Glad to see that it's a bit of trial and error and I'm not breaking barefoot rules by not immediately getting a trimmer in! So far I haven't had to boot my girl but eventually I'd like to take the shoes off my navicular horse too and she for sure will need booted for transitioning, so that's good to know.
How long did it take for your guy to develop some concavity?
 

ester

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I certainly think to some extent less is more in the first instance.

They don't trim at rockley but also have the sort of set up most of us can only dream of, some of their horses when home do better trimmed, some do better without, sometimes it depends on the quantity of work sometimes not.

My chap actually needs trimming when in more work as his feet grow ridiculously! In full work I trim every 3ish weeks. Now he is dossing about he can go 6 weeks easily.

He never developed great concavity, partly because he does a lot of roadwork which tends them towards flatter hooves and partly because we suspect his pedal bone position is not optimal for it (he had reverse rotation initially, I think this was partly resolved on the basis that he lost the bull nosing). He has thick soles but they are suprisingly flexible with hoof testers.

He had to be booted at the 6 week point, his feet 'woke up' and his soles so flat that he was going to feel stuff.
 

atropa

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Thanks Ester that’s fab. Interesting to know that yours didn’t need boots immediately but partway through. I do have some on standby just in case, mine has lovely concavity behind but is flat in front and does do a lot of roadwork too so I won’t panic too much if they stay flat-ish. Luckily the yard she’s at has a combination of grass, whindust, stony hardcore and tarmac tracks all around so I’m hoping a good area for a decent shot at BF. Sorry to hijack your post OP.
 

ester

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It's not unusual and something I do tend to warn people about if their horse stomps out of shoes, partly they wear them down a bit but mostly it's because the hoof is getting more movement and bloody supply etc than it probably was in shoes so it becomes more sensitive.

F's concavity gradually increased, I can't really put a time line on it as it photographs really badly - it does mean I am used to flat hooves and find concave ones a bit odd ;) and TBH they can come with other issues then too. He developed a bit more to function but he will always spot a sharp stone on tarmac and I would never call him rock crunching because of it but he's managed plenty of rough tracks. He will mince occassionally - funnily enough he never did that when hunting :p
 

ester

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I found some more recent pics, so this is probably his maximum concavity though equally not the best feet he has ever had.

So firstly please ignore the high rasping, I'm 200 miles away so the farrier has been doing him, it has been mentioned to stop removing my pony's stripes ;)

but this shows what that roll off sideways starts to look like from the top
22045723_10159527674105438_6867608019867984712_n.jpg

bottom
21768431_10159527666955438_4106391484553385512_n.jpg

concavity (well level checking but best view for it
21768295_10159527666585438_6836305972753348452_n.jpg


trimmed- you will note that I don't touch his heels, he does them just fine!
22046417_10159527666570438_259096137212227277_n.jpg
 

3OldPonies

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Thanks everyone for your support of the barefoot idea for my (hopefully) new equine. I think I will assess, when I get to know him better, chat to vet and farrier if they agree those shoes are coming off!

It was interesting too the other chat that developed - it's always interesting to learn from seeing pics of what other people are doing.
 

Fun Times

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Hi OP - do you have recent xrays of the horse's coffin joints? This would be useful to guide you as to how best to treat the issue. My horse has a bone spur within the joint capsule. Certain types of shoeing helped take the pressure off this bony spur. Also keeping his toes rolled and a quick break over have helped a lot.
 
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