coffin joint arthritis

[ponyexpress]

my 15.1hh cob x TB X is 12yo.I have owned him from a 5yo. Back in 2000 he went lame and navicular syndrome was diagnosed after x rays. After rest and navilox he appeared better however not 100%. He has always hated hard ground and always been unbalanced in his way of going (side to side head ).In later years he has started stiffening up after periods of stabling and after a year off work, on bringing back up was lame. Different vet diagnosed coffin joint arthritis. x rays again showed no change to bones in feet. but nerve block to coffin joint made sound. He is worse left fore but right also affected. Was a different horse after steriod and hyonate injections to front feet back in March but short lived improvement . Tried all the supplements. Loathe to use bute long term. Any other suggestions? He is not insured but I love this horse and willing to try alternatives ( he points left fore constantly.) He is very upright in his pastern and has small feet for his size/type.

 

[Sags_Deer]

a difficult one, i had a youngster that had it, she was 2, went to the royal vet college first time had injection into joint and box rest, still not quite right, second time op they scraped away dead bone. got her home more box rest, interesting with a 2 years old and even more fun when you hand walk them out. anyway i went down the alternative route as well and had homeopathic stuff from george macloud, not alive now. You could try tim couzens who is an excellent homeo vet in halland east sussex, not sure of his phone number.. he is bringing a book out in the autumn. i also gave my horse limestone flour. Went on to back her slowly bit footy on the hard ground. sold her as never grew big enough passed vet who knows how, only been in 2 homes since and wont move again. You could try double dose cortaflex, or cortavet, green lipped mussell extract. or low doses of bute no keen on that one myself. Acupuncture is another option, tim does that as well. depends on where you live. or what about pads under the shoes to help with impact!!. good luck

 

[ponyexpress]

Thank you sammy j. Did your youngster have similar conformaton ie upright pasterns? Have tried pads for 1 year solid - not successful-just gave him smelly frogs! Also tried natural balance shoeing over 3 years, straight bar to reduce play in coffin joint and now just on rolled toe and long heels for support. I do have him shod every 6 weeks on the dot to keep foot balance right. Read about acupuncture and seriously considering this, for what is long term chronic low grade lameness. Any one out there tried acupuncture and seen improvement?

 

[Theresa_F]

Cairo has this plus changes to the pedal bone - low ringbone common in heavy horses. He is now 20 and semi-retired.

He is doing ok - he wears magnetic straps all the time - yes they shouldn't work, but he in his case they make a huge difference to his condition. He has his toes kept short and when the ground is hard wears shoes to rock his weight. Rest of the time he goes without shoes. He also gets corta-flx. Since wearing magnets he had not had any bute - and did get a little pottery recently but once he had his shoes back on improved.

I keep him out as much as possible and he has three ridden or loose school sessions a week to stop him getting stiff. If having to say in during winter he goes in the school twice a day so he never stands for more than 12 hours at any time. He is never is more than 2 days at time.

He is fine being ridden on soft ground and still does the odd few jumps and occasional gallop with the ponies for fun.

He is fine hacking etc but his days of competing jumping and XC are over.

 

[judymoon]

a friend of mine is eventer and has good horse with this condition, she started using an HA oral supplement called Conquer and got the horse back on track and evented at Bramham when expected to have to withdraw as horses soundness was volatile, this was a couple of years ago and she still uses it now and horse still going strong, although not a 'cure all' its a serious help and a serious option to backing off the bute

 

[guisbrogal]

My friends horse is currently on box rest for this condition. He has been in since April but last week the Xrays showed a deterioration in one foot despite the box rest.

He also has low grade Ringbone.

He has had the steroid and joint injections and we are just waiting to see how he reacts to them. She has been told he cannot jump now and they are looking at hacking him at best.

Farrier said the foot pads were an expensive option that more than likely won't help and that as he is a horror for getting thrush they won't try them.

He is on Cortaflex and as he is only 11 she is gutted as you can imagine.

I shall watch your post with interest to see if any of the alternatives give good results.
A

 

[mrussell]

OK, big gamble required here - as your vet wont like this -

have you tried Cytek shoes?

My fella is 13. He is TBx. He also started similar lameness after suffering from a corn about 4 years ago- the first vet said Nav Disease, Newmarket Hospital said Coffin Joint Arthritis. Navilox and Bute had very little effect. We tried everything for 2 years then the vets wrote him off.

I tried every kind of therapeatic shoe but nothing really worked. Adequan gives about 3 months relief but thats it...

Then someone on here suggested Cytek shoes. My vet said no way but the he couldnt get my horse sound either so I went for it.

And they are fantastic for us. I saw an immediate improvement within one shoeing and he has just gone from strength to strength. Heis now jumping and is totaly level.

I changed to Natural balance 2 shoeings ago (purely out of interest..) and he deteriorated again. I went back to Cytek this time round ... and he walked away sound.

I can explain it but if you are willing to give it a try - you may never look back.

It certainly cant do any harm. The shoe removes the pressure from the hoof wall and shifts the balance point to take the strain off of the heel and coffin joints. They arent hot shod and take no notice of people who say they stay on for 12 weeks as they dont - shoe every 5 - 6 weeks as normal.

Be prepared for people to try to talk you out of it but my own vet has eaten his words and now recommends them.

 

[old_girl]

There is a new product on the market, called riaflex

see www.riaflex-equine.co.uk

Its a joint supplement but it doses at a higher level than the others, and may give you some success.

 

[judymoon]

there are so many supplements out there its a minefield! but i cant bang on enough about HA, either on its own or combined with the usual 2 it makes them work even better and gets effective quicker

 

[lastchance]

My welsh cob has ringbone around the pastern joint, and slight navicular and sidebone, he's off work at the mo, but have been advised by the farrier to keep his toes rolled and short. Have recently purchased magnetic straps and waiting for them to arrive (Know they shouldn't work but every option has to be explored for the good of the horse!). Will definately ask farrier about the cytek shoes! Not impressed with vet as won't give a definate plan of action!

 

[pfarrugia]

try something like adequan and ha intra-articular. I know a horse at the yard that had this problem and if you get the adequan in quick enough they make a good recovery. Both are only available by the vet and may cost you about £500 but well worth it.
Good luck

 

[judymoon]

HA oral supplement as mentioned previously works just as effectively (proven through studies) as IA/Im/IV and as the theraputic working time (half life) of HA given via injection is approx 93 hours a constant daily oral dose is not only more effective for your horse but more economic on your pocket! The products called Conquer and its the only pure HA oral in U.K. www.kineishealth.com eventer friend mentioned above using it on her advanced horse for same issues and saw an advert in new Horse Health magazine for product and an article about HA (hence info above!!)

 

[mrussell]

Cytek shoes are only available through trained cytek farriers... most normal farriers wont recommend them as they take business away...they will try to oush the NB shoes instead. See the cytek website for your local farrier.

 

[TGM]

If you are considering Cytek shoeing then you may find the following thread to be informative reading as it represents many different views on the method:

http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/members/forums/index.php?showtopic=10501&hl=cytek

It includes a link to this image which shows what happens when Cytek shoeing goes wrong:

 

[mrussell]

Iv used cytek for 18 months and its been a godsend. as with all techniques, it only takes a dodgy practitioner to ruin a reputation.

The EE site is mainly patronised by barefoot peeps and it is very difficult to talk about much else on there. However, Ive never had the problems descirbed on the thread...and Ive had 2 horses shod in this way by the same trained farrier. Its horses for courses - and if it works, dont knock it.

 

[TGM]

[ QUOTE ]
Iv used cytek for 18 months and its been a godsend. as with all techniques, it only takes a dodgy practitioner to ruin a reputation.

[/ QUOTE ] That's exactly what the owner of the horse pictured above was saying a few years back on another internet forum! Unfortunately, in the long term the technique was detrimental to her horse's feet - I hope things work out better for you

.

 

[ponyexpress]

do you reckon its because they try to keep shoeings to 12 weeks therefore hoof spreads causing stress to hoof wall?
Some people will try to save money this way( it does say on the cytek website that once established horses can go 10-12 weeks) but as mrussells comments earlier , you can still keep trimming /shoeing to 6 weeks.? Maybe with first success some people become blase and extend shoeing intervals.Also if there seem to be few cytek farriers maybe it is difficult to get them every 6 weeks.

 

[TGM]

I did wonder whether that was the case. I know when the owner first started using Cytek she was on a normal 6 weekly schedule, but the farrier had told her that eventually she would be able to extend the interval between shoeings. Whether that happened or not I don't know.

 

[ponyexpress]

looking at the picture it does appear that shoe has been on for some time - with the drastic trimming of the toe it would be the first point to give I would think.

 

[Ludi-doodi]

I haven't read all the replies, so this might have been mentioned. My lad is currently half way through box rest as he damaged his collatoral ligament which holds the bones together across the coffin joint. He had to have a arthioscopy(sp?) to clean out the joint which will hopefully reduce the chances of the arthritis. The vet has said he's to have a wide branch shoe. I posted something here last week asking about his shoe and one reply thought it might also be known as a wide web shoe. The idea being I guess that it takes the pressure off the side where the damage is and/or supports it?

Just a thought, but have you had the foot scanned to check for ligament damage? Ludo showed very little lameness, but there was definately something there. I gave him a month off and no difference so then called in the vet in. Nerve blocks showed the problems was in the foot, the X-rays showed nothing, but scans brought up the ligament damage.. Ludo had to have an op to clean out the joint, a knee length cast on for 3 weeks, a fetlock lenght cast for another 3 and now just has a support bandage on this week and once the new shoes go on, he can start in-hand walking for a few mins a day. We've been given a 70% chance of success so not terrible.

Hope I don't sound too negative and that you find the solution through shoeing. Good luck!

G

 

[ponyexpress]

As my horse is not insured for vets fees I have so far resisted asking for an expensive mri scan which may or may not come up with a result. This problem has been longstanding and he has good and bad days/spells.
From the replies so far my thinking is that I should have him on 24 hr turnout to increase blood flow to his feet. He has always been half/half. He benefits from regular exercise- even on not so good days he improves after riding in the school. Magnetic overreach boots do help if I put them on for 4 hours before riding.
I feel he has a low pain threshold as when he is going forward/playing in the field etc he looks more or less sound. Over the years the problem is not any worse and he is only unlevel in trot. He is keen to canter and jump/land over small fences.Uneven hard ground is his worst senario. He never stumbles and is on the whole quite sure footed.
I occasionally trot on the road and he is quite level but I resist doing too much because of the concussion.
As well as the turnout/use of magnetic boots for short periods/ I am going to try the Conquer ha supplement as the steroid/hyonate injections worked extremely well for a 3 month period. I will continue to have him shod every 6 weeks with a rolled toe and long heels and will see how this new management programme works.
Barefoot with shoof boots/Cytek shoeing possibility if above fails.Will keep you posted. Thanks to all.

 

[mrussell]

The pressure isnt on the hoof wall though - normally the wall breaks around the nail holes (as feet do when left unshod) to begin with - as this is the foot adjusting itself to the new shape it finds itself in. The flares disappear within a couple of shoeings and you wouldnt know that my horse was wearing anything other than a normal shoe (he doesnt have the dramatic upright wall that some horses have - whether in Cyteks or not). There has never been any drastic cutting back of his toes as some horror stories may have people believe.

I dont think a shoe will work forever - but if it gets you on the straight and narrow, its a starting point.

If shoes did work forever, there wouldnt be such a wide range to try when things start to go wrong.

Heres to many more years of sound riding! Every day that passes is one more than the vets predicted 2 years ago.

 

[judymoon]

Glad to here your going to have a go at the Conquer, it would be great to know how you get on

 

[KE123]

Hi, you could also try pernamax from www.maxavita.com. I tried it on Bill about 6 weeks ago and the results are great. It is a green shell mussel tablet which Bill eats in his food (with a little bit of help) but it is a new type of green shell mussel called superna and I've just bought their 3 month dose. Good luck.