Cold backed mare

[redmimosa]

At the start of the winter I bought a lovely mare who was just broken and riding. She has always put her back up when you get up first, but mostly walked on out of it. On a couple of occasions she has threatened to buck and on one she did, properly, when the saddle slipped. I forgave that and altogether she has had about 3 months proper work, been out SJ schooling to a few places and behaved well. However she always gave the feeling that she wasn't quite to be trusted, not willingly flowing forward, more focused on the rider behind and just generally not relaxed or happy in herself. Then one evening she lost it and bronced like a good one, managed to stay on and worked on but she was threatening again and just not coming out of it.

Now this mare has the most fantastic temperment on the ground, is not the least bit nervous, is kind and trusting in every way. It's just when the jockey lands in the saddle her attitude changes. She was broken by people I trust, never mistreated etc. After this last incident we decided to get everything checked - vet, back, teeth - nothing came up, not a sore spot to be found. All the professionals were of the same opinion that the mare has the most wonderful temperment and her behaviour has to be considered out of character.

I got a professional jockey to sit up. Again she froze as soon as he was in the saddle, put back up, refused to walk forward. He turned her on the spot in either direction and eventually walked on. But again looked like she could explode at any moment, looking back at him, unwilling to go forward etc. She went on cantered, jumped etc. But the same attitude throughout.

Am now stumped as to what to do next. I've considered x-raying for kissing spines but both the vet and chiro think it's unlikely to be this, both are highly experienced and respected professionals. Any ideas about what to do next?!

 

[be positive]

I have no direct experience of kissing spines but do know that no vet or physio can rule it out just because there is no obvious sore area on palpation, in fact because there is no sore area and nothing to treat by physio it is the more likely that kissing spines is the cause of the cold backed reaction you are getting.
A friend of mine has a lovely young horse that proved impossible to even back, he was overreactive and explosive so was referred by her vet directly to an equine hospital for tests with the expectation that KS would prove to be the issue, after numerous checks he was returned basically untreated as they felt the KS that showed on xrays was so minor it was not causing him a problem and that his behaviour was just him being "difficult" she got the local vet back in who could not believe he had not been operated on, the hospital had used most of the £5k insurance in testing though, he did get the operation done and is now backed and riding happily, a totally changed horse, so the experts are not always correct even with how they interpret xrays that clearly show an issue.

I would get xrays done, if nothing shows at least you can rule out KS and look elsewhere if she has KS you have options available that may allow her to be more comfortable in her work.

 

[mega spoilt ponies]

It says potential gastric ulcers or kissing spines to me ...

 

[Slightlyconfused]

It says potential gastric ulcers or kissing spines to me ...

This.

You have described my mare, she was backed by us, lovely temperament, when we first got on back was up. Sometimes she would settle sometimes she would not and ended up broncing like mad.
Got vet out to xray back and she had four processes completely fused right under the back of the saddle and another four behind that.started to kiss at the top.

That was four years ago and she has been a lady of leisure since.

Get the back xrayed.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Also have a Google regarding PSSM.

 

[ycbm]

Back x rays, and if she has them treat for ulcers as well, because kissing spines often cause ulcers.

 

[popsdosh]

Back x rays, and if she has them treat for ulcers as well, because kissing spines often cause ulcers.

I would look for easier to find answers first . get your mares back scanned as what you are describing is typical of a mare that has an ovary issue. They are very high up in the back and a percentage of mares wwhere the ovaries are even closer to the outside feel discomfort being ridden. There are ways around it but that would be my first port of call before spending mega bucks . Talk to your vet they are best to advise. Having just re read your opening post I am even more convinced thats where I would look first also typically it is always worse this time of year when they start cycling.

 

[Willow1306]

My horse was like this in a normal tree'd saddle, but stopped as soon as he changed into a solution saddle. He just can't tolerate a traditional saddle, but works willingly and is very trainable in the solution saddle.

 

[wench]

What exactly has the vet checked? Doesn't sound like anything...

 

[ycbm]

I would look for easier to find answers first . get your mares back scanned as what you are describing is typical of a mare that has an ovary issue. They are very high up in the back and a percentage of mares wwhere the ovaries are even closer to the outside feel discomfort being ridden. There are ways around it but that would be my first port of call before spending mega bucks . Talk to your vet they are best to advise. Having just re read your opening post I am even more convinced thats where I would look first also typically it is always worse this time of year when they start cycling.

Ovary scanning isn't going to cost much less than spine x rays for kissing spines and they are very easy to find. Certainly not megabucks. Maybe £200.

I'm no expert, but I've known two mares with kissing spines and none with ovary issues. If you can't do both, OP, maybe ask your vet to do whichever is more common.

 

[wench]

Personally I'd be taking her in to the vets firstly to get ovaries scanned, back xrayed and gastro scoped. If the X-rays showed DSP's close, I'd ask for them to be injected, take horse home and see how you get on. If any signs of ulcers, I want some gastro guard etc, but wouldn't give until I'd seen if the steroid injection made any difference

 

[Lulup]

This is very similar to the behaviour shown by my young horse who turned out to have a complex case of kissing spine ( and he had just passed 5 stage vetting so not always obvious). Sorry to be negative but I would be getting back X-ray straight away to at least rule it out.

 

[Pigeon]

Yeah they can't really say nothing is wrong if they haven't done any investigations. Is she insured? I agree I would get the back x-rayed first, then maybe scope for ulcers and scan ovaries if that comes back clear.

 

[Eventer1994]

I would certainly get X-Ray's done and go from there. My youngster exhibited very similar behaviour that was so out of character. X-Ray's showed slight arthritic changes in the last 3 facet joints of the thoracic region of the spine(mouthful I know!) ulcers also go hand in hand with these sorts of things so I'd also scope. (My horses /acupuncturist identified the ulcers which saved me from scoping so worth looking into. Unfortunately mines not a positive story but we've still got a way to go and many options. Keep us updated.

 

[ktj1891]

I would say go with your gut, even if vet thinks its unlikely you wont know until you do the test. I have a cold backed mare and you could try the following to see if it helps:

Do not clip bum hair off, go for something like a blanket clip (too late if already clipped).
Tack up and put saddle on a good 15 minutes before getting on.
Leave bum covered with sheet before/during warm up.
Loose school/lunge with tack on 5 minutes before getting on board.
Leave girth fairly loose (if safe to do so) and gradually tighten.
Let them go at whatever pace they want to when you first get on (all my mare wants to do is canter when I first get on, so I let her within reason just so she can unwind).
Good Luck with whatever you do!

 

[redmimosa]

Thanks for all the replies. The mare is not insured. I would be leaning towards getting the x-rays, but both the vet and chiro think its highly unlikely that there is any pain. They both did a full assessment of her, manipulations, saw her moving etc. They are both highly respected professionals. The other reason to think it's not pain related is that she shows no other clinical signs - She moves like a dream in all three paces, can jump on the lunge (using her back properly, she show's no girthiness or resentment of the saddle or girth. I will try her ridden a few more times and investigate further if her behaviour remains suspect. I did suspect a ovarian issue too but I haven't noticed her in season yet, it's early and still so cold.

 

[Leo Walker]

My sister had a Trak mare. Lovely natured mare who was broodmare at a reputable stud, so not bred from as she wasnt sound She became barren when she was 13 so was broken. She was very easy on the surface, except a couple of incidences of out of character behaviour. She then came to my sister. She had every check known to man, and everyone said she was fine. Then after a really bad incident she went to the vets, mainly to see if there was anyway she would carry a foal again. They xrayed her back just in case. She had kissing spines. She had steroid injections and lots of rehab and came right kind of, but it wasnt her back that impacted on that.

I think the xrays and injections were less than £300 all in.

 

[ycbm]

My sister had a Trak mare. Lovely natured mare who was broodmare at a reputable stud, so not bred from as she wasnt sound She became barren when she was 13 so was broken. She was very easy on the surface, except a couple of incidences of out of character behaviour. She then came to my sister. She had every check known to man, and everyone said she was fine. Then after a really bad incident she went to the vets, mainly to see if there was anyway she would carry a foal again. They xrayed her back just in case. She had kissing spines. She had steroid injections and lots of rehab and came right kind of, but it wasnt her back that impacted on that.

I think the xrays and injections were less than £300 all in.

This. You cannot tell if a horse has kissing spines or not without an x ray. I've known three horses in the last three years missed by fully qualified physios, a chiropractor and a vet. One so bad she was put to sleep because of the damage to her dorsal processes. She moved beautifully and had been jumping and doing dressage until a couple of months before the diagnosis. If they had found them before they crippled her, maybe she would still be alive. She was eight, and beautifully made

 

[mega spoilt ponies]

As she is not insured my first port of call would be to get down the supermarket and buy them out of ranitidine and gaviscon and trial ulcer treatment for yourselves. This will giveyou a very good idea if she needs treating for ulcers at least.

However, be aware that if this test is positive it doesnt mean that there is no other source of pain also as ulcers are very often the result of other pain (ks, navicular, psd, arthritis etc)

Mine is very cold backed as a result of grade 4 ulcers - but theulcers are caused by other injury/pain

 

[FfionWinnie]

As she is not insured my first port of call would be to get down the supermarket and buy them out of ranitidine and gaviscon and trial ulcer treatment for yourselves. This will giveyou a very good idea if she needs treating for ulcers at least.

How much do you give them and for how long?

 

[mega spoilt ponies]

I believe the official dosage is 6.6mg per kg for ranitidine. The FB group 'horses with ulcers group' and 'horses with ulcers selling group' can give you lots of valuable information and the selling group often has ranitidine and omeprazole for sale.

Supermarkets only tend to stock 75mg tablets so it is a lot of tablets! or you can get 150mg online, or 300mg by prescription. (ive a 16.2 WBx TB and from memory it was about 24 75mg tablets per feed for me)


They should ideally be given every 8 hours but most people find effective 2x daily in am and pm feeds. gaviscon can be given 30-50ml 2x daily. IMO I would do 2 weeks as a test - although some get a clear result in a couple of days.

It should just suppress acid enough to allow you to see if there is a very positive difference then I would pursue scoping so you know what you are dealing with.

 

[old hand]

I had a horse that did this and there was nothing actually wrong with him except that he had a very wide spine and very little bearing surface between his withers and his last rib. A 16.5" K2 saddle with a high wide head and extra wide channel cured it. He was 16.3hh and an irish middleweight so I was very glad when the third ( and least qualified!) saddler I called out found it. It may be worth getting someone brave to hop on bareback and see if she still does it, if not it is likely to be saddle related. Otherwise I would agree that spinal x rays may show something up, has your vet seen her ridden? My horse would explode as you girthed him up too he stopped doing it with the extra wide gullet.

 

[wench]

I had a horse with kissing spines. Physio saw the horse, didn't think anything was wrong.

Took out for her first lesson away from home, good as gold. Went out for a sj training session, good as gold. Four months later she was shot as KS was that bad along with other misc issues

 

[FfionWinnie]

I believe the official dosage is 6.6mg per kg for ranitidine. The FB group 'horses with ulcers group' and 'horses with ulcers selling group' can give you lots of valuable information and the selling group often has ranitidine and omeprazole for sale.

Supermarkets only tend to stock 75mg tablets so it is a lot of tablets! or you can get 150mg online, or 300mg by prescription. (ive a 16.2 WBx TB and from memory it was about 24 75mg tablets per feed for me)


They should ideally be given every 8 hours but most people find effective 2x daily in am and pm feeds. gaviscon can be given 30-50ml 2x daily. IMO I would do 2 weeks as a test - although some get a clear result in a couple of days.

It should just suppress acid enough to allow you to see if there is a very positive difference then I would pursue scoping so you know what you are dealing with.

Thanks for all that, that's interesting. I don't really think she has ulcers but she does have PSSM and some times I wonder about it so this would be worth trying to put my mind at rest I reckon.

 

[ycbm]

How much do you give them and for how long?

Abler.com

 

[FfionWinnie]

Abler.com

I looked there before but I couldn't understand what to buy!

 

[ycbm]

Omeprazole tablets or granules. The site used to have a calculator. For a horse the size of yours, three tablets a day or three sachets of granules for 28 days, then 1 for 28 days but personally I would tail it off much slower as you can get 'acid bounceback' when you stop. The advantage of omeprazole (same as gastroguard) is that you can feed it once a day.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Omeprazole tablets or granules. The site used to have a calculator. For a horse the size of yours, three tablets a day or three sachets of granules for 28 days, then 1 for 28 days but personally I would tail it off much slower as you can get 'acid bounceback' when you stop. The advantage of omeprazole (same as gastroguard) is that you can feed it once a day.

Thanks for that. She has a physio appointment on Sunday so if she doesn't find anything to explain this niggle I have I think that will be my next move. She's 510kg minimum (weigh bridged at that weight but has gained muscle since then).

 

[ycbm]

You're on the border between three tabs/sachets and four. It's a pretty safe drug, I think I'd give three and a half, but it will be a nuisance. I found the tablets work well if they will eat them, and they are cheaper. I used to snap them in half and 'seal' the open end by dipping them in oil. (They are enteric coated to get them through the stomach whole).

I've always found horses with ulcers (one of mine and several of friends) improve within days if the ulcers are the issue.