Colic surgery - insurance bust - considering options

pepsimaxrock

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Please do not post in reply to say that you would never consider colic surgery. That would contribute nothing at best and be unhelpful.

My horse colicked on 4/8 and was operated for LDD straightaway. Discharged after 11 days with recovering v serious wound infection.
That wound has been problematic since and my mare developed a very bloated abdomen. Following box rest she was turned out into tiny paddock has had in hand walking is now in large paddock on her own for about 4 hours a day. She's now lunged in wtc every other day for about 15 - 20 mins.
The bloated abdomen has retreated somewhat. But the wound persists. She has been on loads of antibiotics noradine and Baytril amongst others.
Vet reckons she is abcessing due to adverse reaction to internal sutures. Every so often pus breaks through the wound she is relieved and then it starts to build again.
She is in pain when you clean her wound - daily task - but otherwise fine and happy good appetite normal temperature etc.
I was insured but am now 3k over limit. I cannot afford even £100 more.
Any thoughts friends?
 

Exploding Chestnuts

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Ask your vet for advice, ask for a consultation at the vet practice, you may have to pts.
Without knowing the ins and the outs, you have to pts or you have to try something different eg homeopathy [I used this]. If the problem is internal, you have little option but to pts.
The horse has no knowledge of tomorrow.
I have had internal abcesses, and had sugery 3 times, and it was very minor compared to a horse.
 
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Meowy Catkin

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Ok it's a cat, but she had a reaction to the sutures post spaying and we were told that the only option was to remove them and to replace them with an alternative suturing material. This was done and she then healed quickly and without any further complications.
 

pepsimaxrock

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Thanks Both
Bonkers do you mean just me n the vet/s. Without horsey there. I think that would be s good idea. I am coming to same conclusion.
But I'm very angry at insurance company as their cover was so limited.
 

be positive

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It sounds an awful situation and extremely unfair that having got through surgery and all the complications that can involve she is now reacting to the sutures, if you speak to the vets have a list of questions to ask so you can get everything clear, a few things come to my mind, 1 if she is abscessing internally will the wound be breaking down also, if so the prognosis may be very poor anyway, 2 have they tested the pus and targeted the infection specifically, I hope they have but if not that must be worth a go, the vets can give you a swab to save a call out and you can take it in for testing, 3 on a practical note and relating to the financial side of things, will you be covered if you pts, they may well refuse to pay out, not something you want to be thinking about but from a financial point of view you may end up paying and not getting a payout for her value.

I hope you can get to the bottom of the infection as she sounds as if she is a fighter and generally doing very well, good luck xx
 

pepsimaxrock

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Hi there
Yes we have had a swab it showed Strep Zooepidemicus and she was treated for that with Baytril. Shortly before she came off the baytril the wound started filling up again - its not massive but it does have to be cleaned daily and thats when she feels the pain. Otherwise she is happy.
I think I am going to leave it a couple of weeks (as long as she stays happy) and see whether the abcess busts, giving her some relief, and whether she starts abcessing again. Then I will speak to my vet regarding options (if its still not going well).
It is a long time (15 weeks) for a wound not to heal though :( And to continue abcessing through a big gun antibiotic like Baytril. :(
I am sure my insurance will not pay out for PTS. I will have to cover that. Its a rock and a hard place but yes I will probably have to pay out money for PTS (if it comes to that) - money that I cannot afford to spend on vet treatment :(
But where and when do I draw the line.
She is a fighter - she's also a damn good little horse :(
 

Cortez

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If your horse is reacting to the sutures and has abscessed as a result, surely she will not suddenly stop being allergic and will continue to react as long as the sutures are in place? What does your vet say?
 

Exploding Chestnuts

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Thanks Both
Bonkers do you mean just me n the vet/s. Without horsey there. I think that would be s good idea. I am coming to same conclusion.
But I'm very angry at insurance company as their cover was so limited.

Yes that is what I mean, you go to the surgery and have a chat, it is less pressure and you have the vet who is treating the horse and hopefully another senior who can look at the scenario objectively.
No point in anger at insurance company, that is just racking up the stress, put it in a mental box and forget it.
I would try a homeopathy remedy, the tongue has to be clean of food 30 mins before and 30 mins after.
There is one for pushing muck out of the abscess in humans. I will research it for you, its cheap and worth a try.
http://abchomeopathy.com/forum2.php/62550/
probably Hepa sulph or Silicea, I am not expert, I used a qualified doctor for two chronic conditions and the consulation is about an hour, as temperament as well as symptoms are considered, but if only two remedies seem suitable try one for a week then the other.
Go to a good website for the proper stuff, it is vital you dont touch the stuff, it is put direct on to or under the tongue.
Only you can know when to draw the line, it is when you have run out of options.
 
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Andalucian

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Are you sure there isn't some error on the vet's part.......possibly a foreign body left in there? Baytril knocks out all nasties usually. It is ok to question the vet, I'm sure they're thinking it's a possibility. Sorry the poor horse has had so much trouble.
 

ihatework

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Have they scanned the area?
Is there any chance that a swab/similar was left behind from the op?
It shouldn't happen, but it's not unheard of ....
 

Exploding Chestnuts

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Have they scanned the area?
Is there any chance that a swab/similar was left behind from the op?
It shouldn't happen, but it's not unheard of ....

That is not going to help, they are not going to admit it, but you can ask to see the op notes, I am not sure if they have to count swabs in and swabs out, I doubt it.
 

popsdosh

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To me playing the waiting game with the possibility of internal sutures causing the problem is like playing Russian roulette as its just as likely the abscess may cause peritonitis and then it will be taken out of your hands. You need to be very careful as the wrong decision may give the insurance company enough wiggle room to get out of paying for the loss of the horse if the worse happens.
 

lindsayH

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Interesting that you refer to Baytril as a 'big gun' antibiotic. I work in small animal practice, but we consider it an old fashioned antibiotic with a fair amount of resistance. However, if the lab has done a culture and sensitivity and says it should work then it should work. Normally, they suggest more than one a/b, is there another you can add in or have you tried them all already? I think the only thing you can do is see what your vet suggests and do it if you can afford it. Get a second opinion if it makes you feel better.
If you can't afford any suggested alternative treatment then all you can do is continue with the cleaning and antibiotics. I would have thought it will become obvious if the wound is going to break down or heal.
Very best of luck, fingers crossed for you.
 

dianchi

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Ok few points,

Get the vet to scan- this isnt normal!
Your cover from the insurance- read small print it would have been there all along- sorry but true.

If you cant afford £100 more, you should look at PTS your horse is obv in pain and you need to do something, even if it is your worst nightmare.

Sorry OP its a horrid position to be
 

bonny

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Is it worth considering different antibiotics ? I had a horse with a lot of serious injuries who became immune to standard ones and had serious infections. In the end we used antibiotics for chickens, I can't remember the name, which was expensive but it worked.
 

ester

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I'd agree vets need to scan, there is no point keeping throwing antibiotics at her if she is reacting to the sutures.
 

Pinkvboots

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I also agree about having a scan done 15 weeks is a long time to be on antibiotics with no joy, my horse was also given the chicken antibiotics when she had a pedal bone scrape, I know it's nothing like whatever your horse has going on but the post from someone saying there vet practice considers baytril to be old fashioned is worth keeping in mind! and even a second opinion would not be a bad idea different vet different experiences you never know.
 

ester

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baytril is pretty common to use for small animals and would be 'old fashioned' for them. The situation is different for horses I think/it is used for longer term issues. It is broad spectrum (which is often where the big gun description comes from!).
 

pepsimaxrock

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How much does a scan cost. My problem is in the first post. There's no money left. But credit card could be extended possibly if a scan isn't too much and is likely to give a definitive prognosis.
 

pepsimaxrock

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Oh and she's not in pain all
The time. She's only in pain when we try and clean the wound. The rest of the time she is happy - is out in her own little paddock during the day can see other horses and is fine :)
 

paddy555

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Discharged after 11 days with recovering v serious wound infection.
That wound has been problematic since and my mare developed a very bloated abdomen. Following box rest she was turned out into tiny paddock has had in hand walking is now in large paddock on her own for about 4 hours a day. She's now lunged in wtc every other day for about 15 - 20 mins.
The bloated abdomen has retreated somewhat. But the wound persists. She has been on loads of antibiotics noradine and Baytril amongst others.
Vet reckons she is abcessing due to adverse reaction to internal sutures. Every so often pus breaks through the wound she is relieved and then it starts to build again.

I hate to say it, money or not, surely if this has been going on for 15 weeks the horse should be back with the team who operated so they can find out exactly what is going on or alternatively PTS which seems a shame.
If it has not resolved in 15 weeks why will it resolve in say 20 weeks?
 

Pinkvboots

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baytril is pretty common to use for small animals and would be 'old fashioned' for them. The situation is different for horses I think/it is used for longer term issues. It is broad spectrum (which is often where the big gun description comes from!).

I must admit I have never heard of baytril but my horses have only had minor injuries that required antibiotics so that's probably why apart from the pedal bone problem.
 

ester

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Even if she isn't in pain this isn't going to resolve without assistance. A frank discussion with your vet (scan would be cheap enough but might not give you an answer), a money limit they can work to? She does seem to have cost ££ up to this point if you have spent all insurance + another 3k- I guess from the hospitalisation- and only you can say if you want to spend any more at all. - It isn't really the insurance companies fault that they had a low limit as different policies do carry different amounts of vet cover, reflected in the premium so the owner can choose.
 

popsdosh

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Prob is horse surgery is much more complicated. And I'm not putting her through it. Also bank is bust

If I am totally honest I would go and see the vets and ask them how much they may help you . Some are very good at coming up with a payment plan of some sort. You have been unlucky to have the horse that is allergic maybe! They may be sympathetic with you?
What Value is she insured for as a total lose. If for more than the treatment may cost maybe the insurance company if she will a total lose to them if you cant treat her they may pay for treatment if you fore go any payout if it doesnt work out. I know two cases where this was agreed.
I know this will sound very mercinary but if you do try more treatment and by chance it did not work at least your extra cost will likely be covered. If the horse makes it at least you have something to show for the extra expense but do talk to vets first as some of them are humans and the sooner the better as a delay will not help the chances of recovery or make the job any easier . If its just the gut wall stitches internally I dont see it being a big job or that pricey.
This is the problem with colic surgery today just a straight forward one will be 5K plus you have been very unlucky by the sounds of it and I really feel for you. It is normally on the table or the first few days when they go wrong. It seems a real shame to give up now!!!
 
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pepsimaxrock

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Yes my colic surgery was £5.8k. The max I could insure her for with all the companies I tried was 5k. So
It cost 800.00 to get her out of the hospital. The vet fees medications and some small associated expenses have now lifted that to around £3.2k. My limit was £3k and we are far from out of woods.
This is the last I wil say about insurance but I insured her to the max available and it is insufficient. Colic surgery is not unusual and insurance should cover it. Premiums may have been higher for a higher limit but insurance should cover common conditions. I thought I had done the right thing - but it wasn't enough.
 

AnShanDan

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I've not got much to add to the discussion above, lots of sensible suggestions already.

One thing does occur to me though. If this is def. an allergic reaction then you might be able to get the vets to claim from the suppliers of the material, or on their own indemnity insurance, which would allow them to treat your horse for the effects of the reaction.

I have had a horse react to vaccine and need steroids and call outs which I didn't pay for, my vets went back to the vaccine manufacturers and they covered all extra costs in full.

Hope you work something out, I think in your position I'd be giving the mare a bit longer if she is comfortable, but I can totally appreciate it is a horrible situation.
 

Luci07

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Yes my colic surgery was £5.8k. The max I could insure her for with all the companies I tried was 5k. So
It cost 800.00 to get her out of the hospital. The vet fees medications and some small associated expenses have now lifted that to around £3.2k. My limit was £3k and we are far from out of woods.
This is the last I wil say about insurance but I insured her to the max available and it is insufficient. Colic surgery is not unusual and insurance should cover it. Premiums may have been higher for a higher limit but insurance should cover common conditions. I thought I had done the right thing - but it wasn't enough.

This is what annoys me about insurance. At times, with the best will and most careful reading of the policy, it does seem that you don't have the cover you think you do. I only learnt about "missing" items when reading other peoples horror stories. Really feel for you, and think you have had some excellent advice on here. I would definitely talk to the vet again and ask them for what they would suggest/payment plan/other options.
 
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