Collateral ligament inflammation

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toddles

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Hi. Looking for hope. My 7 year old Irish x has been lame for several months he was first diagnosed with spavins and sore front feet from which the vet thought was due to compensation from the hind end issue. which were treated with steroids and Tilden, and corrective shoeing and he started to look like he was using himself more. But I was still convinced that he didn't feel right on his front end. After a second round or nerve blocks and X-rays. He was sent for an MRI which uncovered inflammation to the coffin joint and pedal bone. Left more that right fore. And equal inflammation to the collateral ligaments. He then had more steroid injects to his front feet and a joint supplement. Although this get are looking better and he is landing better he is more lame now than ever. And worse now in the right fore. So back again to the vets more nerve blocks and the said the collateral ligament is the main cause of problem now and must be more damaged than they previously thought. He has had a first irap and is now on box rest. What I am looking for is any good news stories of horses that have returned to full work. As I am thinking the worst right now.
 
Go read the rockley blog, see how you feel about it and consider taking his shoes off.

When you say landing better what is the change?
 
With you, just wanted to check which plane we were talking. Mine landed outside first too, I never MRId but because of that, and his age (much older than yours so been doing it a long time!) I kind of suspect he had some collateral ligament stuff going on too. That and because over the last 5 years the supposed coffin joint DJD that was diagnosed seems not to have progressed at all (so I don't believe it anymore!)
 
I've just gone through very similar issues with my gelding. May 2016 my vet identified performance related with his hocks, X-rays showed mild DJD which we treated with steroids and a joint supplement.
All good until September when he went lame suddenly in front. Nerve blocked to the right fore which he was also landing laterally on. X-rays showed some deterioration of the navicular but my vet & I weren't convinced that was the cause of the lameness. We put a bar shoe on and box rested but no improvement so went to the RVC in October for an MRI.
The scan showed a small tear on the DDFT where it passes the navicular bone plus navicular bursitis, granulated scar tissue and collateral ligament damage. Prognosis was very poor with long term box rest being the only option given.
I did my homework on treatment and options and decided that barefoot was worth a try. My vet was supportive and we initially discussed sending him to Rockley Farm however there was a 10 week waiting list at that point so I decided to get the shoes off and try myself.
He did 7 months box rest with daily in hand walks building until March when he was declared sound enough to start ridden walking with trot slowly introduced and built up. He managed ok until June when his hocks needed attention again, he also decided that I hadn't spent enough time or money on him so had an impacted colic attack which ended with 4 day stay at Newmarket :rolleyes:
We got back to business on the 1st July, built up the hacking to 5 miles of walk with lots of trot and introduced polework in the school. He's been getting better as the work increased and last Wednesday went for our 12 month follow up where he trotted up and lunged sound :o
He still lands laterally occasionally but that is a conformation issue rather than lameness. His foot /fetlock conformation mean he will always be predisposed to it. However now his foot is comfortable and balanced he is happier to stride out and land heel first the majority of the time. He's freeer in his hocks now he's not over using them and the tightness in his back and shoulders from compensating has gone.

Ester has already suggested the Rockley blog and I wholehearted second that. It was and still is a huge source of information and inspiration to me without which I have no doubt I would still be struggling with a lame & sore horse.
 
There are also a lot of people here that will answer questions and other places to go to but I think it is the best start for someone to then decide how they feel about it :), I am cautious bombarding people with too much information about something that might seem a bit left field because it has to be their choice so I hope my reply doesn't seem very short!

We also have a fair few ex rockley horses now, with a variety of success long term. I do always say that barefooting is not a cure-all but I do consider it manys best chance.
 
I have looked at rockley. At the moment my vet is keen to keep shoes on him. And I am not sure I would like him unshod as he has slipped and sat down which resulted in me hitting the deck when he didn't have back shoes on. But having said that I am not totally against barefoot.
 
FWIW most of us with barefoot horses find that their degree of traction is generally increased as a result. The only time not is wet grass on hard ground but shoes without studs struggle with that too.

Most vets are generally keen to keep shoes on them, sometimes that is a lack of exposure to alternatives, I know a few vets now who are more pro those alternatives (mostly after having written horses off). I also think most tend to be guided by owners dedication to it a bit, in the short term it is definitely no the easy option and definitely requires an owner to be 'on board' and there are certainly plenty that have no wish to be and happy to keep trying shoes.

As always said shoes can come off and go back on with ease either way :)
 
Thanks ester. It is just such a mine field. At the moment he is ok with his box rest and walking in hand today he was walking rather quick with is very unlike him. I normally have to drag him round. Just hope he doesn't start playing up without any turnout of being worked.
 
I'd say give him a strict talking too but I dont have a great history of that working!

Just a small tale to make you smile when mine was rehabbed for the suspect CL issue we had to sort the gateway so used it to create a pea gravel area on the grass track we had round the field. After a couple of months Frank spent all day stood on it (bank holiday monday of course) and I was like eek, lami, eek abscess etc.
then my sister piped up that actually she had heard them charging round the track presumably just for shits and giggles the previous night and the ground was hard, next day he was fine!
 
toddles said:
I have looked at rockley. At the moment my vet is keen to keep shoes on him. And I am not sure I would like him unshod as he has slipped and sat down which resulted in me hitting the deck when he didn't have back shoes on. But having said that I am not totally against barefoot.
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Shoes make horses slip more, not less and of course your vet is keen to keep shoes on - 90% of vets and farriers are light years behind in their thinking about the benefits of barefoot. The only way you will get this horse sound/rideable is through transitioning to barefoot. Remedial shoeing does not work. It can be daunting to completely change your whole belief system but it'll be the best thing you ever do. Start ploughing your way through threads on here and the Rockley Farm blog and keep asking questions here, as there's lots of knowledge and support.
 
toddles said:
Thanks ester. It is just such a mine field. At the moment he is ok with his box rest and walking in hand today he was walking rather quick with is very unlike him. I normally have to drag him round. Just hope he doesn't start playing up without any turnout of being worked.
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Box rest is also the worst thing you can do. Hooves need movement to improve. Hoof boots (plus pads sometimes) help this if/when they're sore at first.
 
Will discuss removing shoes with the vet next week when he goes for his second irap poppyanderson. I am hoping the box rest is only till after the last iwrap has been done his last one is on 20/09. Do these injurys take mo
nths to heal. Just worried if it does heal will he do it again. It's frustrating when I do t even know how it happened in happened in the first place.
 
toddles to a certain extent these injuries often happen when the hoof is otherwise compromised/sub optimal anyway. The better hoof you can get (and more importantly nice strong internal structures associated with that, pretty on the outside doesn't cut it, in fact the outside is generally the least bit to worry about!) the less likely any return of issue is.

Ps I say the pretty on the outside as we got Frank's feet to go from having under run heels to lovely looking in two cycles of bar shows, but he was still dead lame so they weren't any more functional for him regarding whatever was going on inside. A couple of months of slow and steady straight line walking (starting 5 mins a day) and slowly building up to having a canter 5 months later, we did dressage 8 months later and he hasn't taken a lame step on that hoof since (well apart from when he flinted himself hunting but that is a bit different!) We are now 5 years down the line, he has had a fair few vet visits as he is now 24 and has some hind end issues but everyone has said he looks great in front. It is the best thing I ever did - and a lot of people feel like that which is why some can seem a bit evangelical but usually that only comes from it 'saving' their horse.
 
When you look these Injuries up there is lots of horses that don't come sound. It's great that yours has ester and is he jumping as well. How long does the barefoot process take to transition. And wouldn't turnout delay the healing of the ligament.
 
Where are you looking them up and what treatment did they have though?

As I said I didn't MRI as it wouldn't have changed what I did with him (and they were more ££ and less insurance covered back then). But he had a lameness that blocked to the back of the foot/coffin joint, nothing of note on xray other than some counter rotation of pedal bones (due to underrun heels sort of). Xrays were the same on both hooves and he was only lame on one, the only difference between them was the landing- badly laterally on the lame foot hence the collateral ligament assumption.

I had always said having been around here a while that if he had a hoof issue shoes would come off, however when faced with a vet who thought it would be easily resolved I agreed to give shoeing and steroid injections a go but I always put a time limit on it. I also spoke to Nic at rockley who was helpful and she was the one who said well shoes can always come off in the future.
after 4 months of treatment with no improvement I decided that he would either improve or was retiring, and if he was retiring I wanted his shoes off anyway. I took it slower than many/perhaps I had to as I was cautious of his age (19) at the time meaning that I figured we had one good shot at it.

I did give him another steroid when we deshod as it did work short term previously (not sure I would now) and he didn't really take a noticeable lame step. We deshod in April, I cantered in september (mostly was waiting for softer ground), started schooling october, dressage test in november, can't remember when I started jumping again.

But yes he jumped, I was a little more cautious of hard ground to start but the further the went the less I worried. He never did masses of regular jumping as we had kind of done that phase in our lives but that was due to him getting a bit stiff behind as he aged. He also hunted monthly, hacking to meets, until his 23rd year so plenty of on road trotting and cantering. He did miles on those hooves, never wore them out, the more I did the more they grew and the more I had to trim them (partly because he still didnt move totally straight, he has slightly wonky knees so rolls off the outside of his toes, but importantly he now lands straight, not laterally). He retired to hacking (and showing) 12 months ago because of a hind annular ligament issue that we want to keep happy and more recently a slightly funky liver.

Re healing ligaments there are a couple of lines of thought (in people and horses), one is total rest, the other is gentle use which means it will continue to heal but heal functionally. The latter certainly sems to work work as most of those 'navicular' horses at rockley have ddft damage etc.

I hope that helps, as I said earlier it is just worth thinking about, even if it is just to ask the questions of your vet, speak to Nic if that would help- she is usually pretty helpful just so that you are able to make informed decisions.
 
Toddles - start reading and get yourself gen'd up on the subject. Here's some links to start you off.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...-story-and-a-massive-thanks-to-Rockley-Farm-x

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/before-and-after-buster-and-collateral.html?m=1

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/working-horses-on-bute.html?m=1


Transition to barefoot can be immediate or take weeks/months. The 3 pillars of barefoot are diet, movement and trimming. Optimum diet, movement (on the right surfaces) and trimming (with the help of a recommended trimmer - not typically a farrier - or ideally, the holy grail is self trimming).
 
toddles said:
When you look these Injuries up there is lots of horses that don't come sound. It's great that yours has ester and is he jumping as well. How long does the barefoot process take to transition. And wouldn't turnout delay the healing of the ligament.
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There is no point in healing the ligament by keeping the horse immobile if the damage was caused by poor foot development which can only be resolved by movement. The better foot must come first, or the injury will simply reoccur.

Most horses are markedly improved inside three months.
 
toddles said:
When you look these Injuries up there is lots of horses that don't come sound. It's great that yours has ester and is he jumping as well. How long does the barefoot process take to transition. And wouldn't turnout delay the healing of the ligament.
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Mine has too. His injury and lameness came from poor foot balance. His fetlock/Pastern/ hoof conformation on the lame foot means he's predisposed to a lateral landing.
The changes and damage progressed over a period of time but I can only guess on how long as I have little history on him. He came to me in a pretty poor state and I now think there were underlying issues there when I acquired him but not to the point of lameness. Foot balance for him is key and I've watched his hoof rebuild itself during the transition to barefoot resulting in his hoof landing and confidence in moving forward dramatically improving.
 
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