Colour experts: difference between brown and bay?

[Abi90]

New Mare's passport says she is brown. A small amount of googling says that they are indeed different colours. I know nothing of colour genetics so just wondered if anyone could shed a bit of light?

This is her:

Is she indeed Brown or actually bay?

 

[GirlFriday]

Traditionally brown meant mostly brown horse with brown mane & tail. Bay was the same but with black mane and tail.

Your (lovely) girl's tail looks perhaps slightly brown in the photos but with mane against the sun that looks black to me... what colours are they in real life?

Of course genetics experts will have fun telling you much more scientific stuff but that is (was) the common usage of the terms I grew up with.

 

[Abi90]

Mane and Tail definitely black. The explanations I found on the internet was that "brown" horses have mealy coloured muzzles and their belly etc would be mealy and the typical example given would be an Exmoor pony. She definitely had that sort of mottling look an Exmoor would have. It also said that their coat colour was not at all reddish but a bay would be.

This was however, the wikipedia explanation so could well be wrong!

 

[Wagtail]

Bay and brown are the same genetically, except that brown has a modifier on the agouti allele. However, there is no current test for it as the one they had was shown to be inaccurate in 20% of cases. Your mare's phenotype looks to be brown though. There is also seal brown where the horse appears black except for tan on the soft parts. Brown horses usually have black manes and tails like bays, although sun bleaching can make them appear brown.

 

[teddypops]

I have one the same colour who's passport states he is brown. He is much lighter around his muzzle and under his belly, as per your Wikipedia description but everyone else says he is bay.

 

[Shantara]

I often wonder if my mare is brown, rather than bay. Her mane is the same colour as the top of her neck, which is slightly darker than the rest of her body. Everyone tells me she is bay, including her passport! But I really think brown.

 

[Abi90]

Thanks for the info. I find colour genetics fascinating but don't really know much about them

 

[Meowy Catkin]

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/tbcolor1.html

She looks brown to me. It's often easier to tell when the horse has it's winter coat and is unclipped. You should get a brown area above the nostrils, brown eyeshadow under the lower eyelids and also brown coming up from under the horse. So brown on the inside of the forearms/armpits and from between the hind legs, up onto the flanks/hindquarters/maybe the belly.

Here's a really nice seal brown which clearly shows the brown areas.

You also get Wild Bay (A+), which is different to bay and Brown as the horse has hardly any black left on its legs, but has a black mane and tail.

Brown is not the same as Pangare (Exmoors and Haflingers) as the muzzle isn't mealy, it's brown, but the same areas are 'diluted'.

 

[JJS]

She certainly is brown. You can see the difference in these pictures of mine.

My filly is bay. She has a reddish/ginger coat, black points (or she will once she's shed the last of her foal coat), and a black mane and tail.

My gelding, on the other hand, is much more chocolatey, with black mane, tail, and legs, and a very orange nose. He's a (seal) brown.

 

[Abi90]

Well you learn something new every day

ETA - lovely horses JJS

 

[JJS]

ETA - lovely horses JJS

Thank you!

 

[Leo Walker]

On my laptop she looks bay. Very definite black mane and tail and black points, dunno if its not showing it accurately or not.

 

[Wagtail]

On my laptop she looks bay. Very definite black mane and tail and black points, dunno if its not showing it accurately or not.

Brown horses do have black points.

 

[ester]

She looks dark bay to me on my laptop, I wouldn't call her brown at the moment, be interesting to see her in full winter fluff. I understand what LW is alluding too, ie in a brown horse you usually cannot see the demarcation between leg and body colour clearly as in the pictures posted above of examples, only the lighter areas muzzle/stifle/elbow.

also I don't think we currently say there is a modifier on agouti? We don't know what causes it.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

My own brown horse looked very bayish in her summer coat, but you could still see the browner areas in the right places. In her winter coat she was seal brown with a real 'black and tan' look.

 

[JDH01]

This really interests me as I have had a black horse passported as bay, a bay horse (TB) passported as brown and a seal brown (TB) passported as bay!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Passports are notorious for having colours wrong. It really comes down to how good the person filling it in is at horse colours, especially if they are judging the colour from the foal coat, which can be deceptive. I like the PRE passports that I've seen where the horse is DNA tested for colour (well the colours that tests are available for that occur in the breed) and the results are put in the passport.

 

[ester]

yup hence the request for a winter fuzz pic faracat .

And yes passports are to generally be ignored, given that bay roan thoroughbreds don't really exist (there are a very few catch a bird descendants, this was not one), especially when they are just going grey (just a recent example)

 

[Abi90]

yup hence the request for a winter fuzz pic faracat .

)

Unfortunately, having only had her a week, I do not yet have a winter fuzz pic. She may well be bay, it's just the brown on her passport (which was done at 4 months old) and a comment someone made about her looking "chocolatey" that made me wonder

 

[ester]

That's ok I presumed I'd have to wait for a couple of months as she is new .

She does look a lovely sort.

 

[Leo Walker]

She looks dark bay to me on my laptop, I wouldn't call her brown at the moment, be interesting to see her in full winter fluff. I understand what LW is alluding too, ie in a brown horse you usually cannot see the demarcation between leg and body colour clearly as in the pictures posted above of examples, only the lighter areas muzzle/stifle/elbow.

Exactly, she has what look to me like black legs to the hock, mid forearm, that then change to brown above it in quite a clear line. She also has very clear black ear rims. Hence me saying black points

 

[Abi90]

That's ok I presumed I'd have to wait for a couple of months as she is new .

She does look a lovely sort.

I'm actually really pleased with her, she was a bit of a gift to be brought on as a project. She's an ID crossed with something unknown but we think possibly a Connie or Welsh D. In Ireland it's more likely to be a Connie but she moves like a Welshie.

In response to LW, I think it's just the light with her ears. On visual inspection and in a different picture her ears have no black on them, they are a really dark chocolatey brown

 

[Theocat]

She looks dark bay to my old-fashioned terminology.

I suspect those who put "brown" in passports aren't always doing it from a position of great knowledge of colour genetics, and are literally just thinking the horse looks ... mostly brown coloured.

 

[Abi90]

To be honest I'm just happy I don't have another grey!

 

[Wagtail]

I'm still thinking brown.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Two brown Irish jobs.

One is a son of the famous Cornet Oblensky, SJ stallion. The other is just famous in her own right

 

[Abi90]

Gorgeous horses! I inspected her tail and ears today. Ears are a chocolate brown and tail does have brown in it but it could be bleaching from the sun

 

[FfionWinnie]

Thank you. Mine have brown ears with black round the outside when looking at them from behind.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

My brown cob looks black in some lights/ at some times of the year. You could never mistake her for bay.

 

[Tiddlypom]

She's very nice (just my sort), and looks bay to me .