Colour Questions

[imafluffybunny]

What is this??

Every coat change brings more and more white, it doesnt show in the picture but the white hairs are over her whole body, they stop at her head.

Her dam and sire are both bay with no markings like this, the only white her dam has is a tiny patch of very few white hairs on her side and a tiny snip of white on one heel.
She is DNA tested so she is def by the correct parents! I had thought it could be the sabino gene so I had her tested, it came back neg.
Could it be Rabicano even through the 'roaning' goes right up to her head and she has no white through her tail?
Can a horse hide the roan/rabicano gene? Could the mare be hiding a gene only shown by the tiny patch on her side???

 

[cruiseline]

It looks like rabicano at work to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabicano

 

[KarynK]

The genetic test is for Sabino 1, and that is probably one of very many genes responsible for white! Sabino 1 does not explain markings in TB's and Arabs/ I am very cautious now as these sorts of things have not really been studied in depth and what we previously thought was sabino is not genetically sabino at all. I think it will be some time before all of the white ticking we see will be explained!!

Question time!
Can't see the top of the tail, has it got a band of white hairs across it?
It looks like whatever it is is progressive?
How old is she now?
Are the parents from a specific breed?
Does that breed involve any roan or other coloured markings?

 

[imafluffybunny]

No she doesnt have a band of White hairs across tail, there are different shades of black/brown through her tail but no White.
She is 3, It is def progressive, every year/coat change more and more White appears.
She is a Hanoverian, both parents are solid bays, I'm not aware of roan/ rabicano/ sabino in any of her pedigree.
The only thing I can think is the mare has the tiny patch of a few White hairs and when I looked closely tonight, very very very slight flecking on her quarters. Could the mare be the carrier and not show in her own colourings??

 

[imafluffybunny]

This is the only White on this mare

 

[KarynK]

It's probably not what is described as Rabicano as that description is associated with a band across the top of the tail plus white hairs in the coat. There are a lot of genes I think that do things like this but would probably say it's a dominant (most white patterning so far is) and that something in the mating allowed more white to come through more rapidly than in the mare. Will be very interesting to see just how far it will go though!!!

I did have highly white marked horse with ticking across the back who's father also had the ticking but they were definite sabinos with high white on the legs, chin and mine had a tiny belly splash.

 

[angrovestud]

This mare is a pure TB and has similar markings she has a slash of white like a seam under her tummy

Above a rabicano on a TB.

above is a mare due to foal anyday she has no white blaze no white legs nothing but her pedigree is loaded with colour she has various white patches in her coat and so does her half sister.

 

[cruiseline]

Is it not possible to have the rabicano gene without the tail barring?

One of our mares who carries the rabicano gene passed it on to her foal last year, you could clearly see the start of barring on his tail when he was born, but he didn't have any ticking in his coat. The mare has progressively got more and more ticking through her coat every year. Her foal still does not have any ticking as a yearling, so wouldn't this indicate that the gene is progressive in nature?

 

[amy_b]

my mare is very similar to this!! she gets more and more white flecks through her coat every year but doesnt have any tail barring nor does she has slashes of white etc. she is by a grey stallion (Duca Di Busted) but doesnt carry the grey gene, we noticed last night that her son (1yr old,bay) has white flecks on his flanks this summer....
soooo confusing!!

 

[imafluffybunny]

This is why I am so confused CL, due to the absence of tail barring I had her tested for Sabino. Could the tail barring come at a later stage?
I noticed this morning that her dams last foal, now 10 months has a few flecks of white starting to apear on her quarters as she is losing her winter coat.
The dam is clearly the carrier, the fact that she she doesnt have tail barring either - or much flecking - really confuses me!!
The dam is the bay in the very right of my sig, as you can see she is a solid bay (the one in foal to Legrande CL!)

 

[KarynK]

It's so difficult to know what they all are, most of the textbooks are out of date now we have testing in for some colours, they could all be the same gene or variations or different ones?

But traditionally Rabicano ticking is associated with the band across the tail, and I think the word is spanish for tail and white or similar.
Certainly some ticking is also associated with the traditional sabino (high white) markings but this gene is yet to be isolated.
Then you get ticking trough the coat of a modestly marked horse, my TB has it very mildly.
There are some with patches of roan like markings, whole white blobs and a progressive and in this case aggressive ticking? You also get sooty coloured blobs on chestnuts!

 

[cruiseline]

This is why I am so confused CL, due to the absence of tail barring I had her tested for Sabino. Could the tail barring come at a later stage?
I noticed this morning that her dams last foal, now 10 months has a few flecks of white starting to apear on her quarters as she is losing her winter coat.
The dam is clearly the carrier, the fact that she she doesnt have tail barring either - or much flecking - really confuses me!!
The dam is the bay in the very right of my sig, as you can see she is a solid bay (the one in foal to Legrande CL!)

Could introducing the sabino gene to the mix actually increase the possibility of the rabicano becoming more expressive?

I am almost certain that our rabicano mare also carries the sabino gene (two big stockings and a broad white blaze), so I am very excited to see this years foal as it is by Legrande who looks to carry sabino gene too (4 white stockings and a blaze) although he does not show any ticking on his body.

Here are some photos.

Here she is a few years ago

And a photo of that fab stripped tail

This photo was taken the day she foaled last year, I think she has got more ticking over the years (not the most complimentary photo, but the only one of her full body that I can find)

and a photo of her foals tail the day he was born, you can clearly see one full strip across the top, there are a few white hairs above and below it too.

I love horse colour genetics

 

[imafluffybunny]

Could introducing the sabino gene to the mix actually increase the possibility of the rabicano becoming more expressive?

I am almost certain that our rabicano mare also carries the sabino gene (two big stockings and a broad white blaze), so I am very excited to see this years foal as it is by Legrande who looks to carry sabino gene too (4 white stockings and a blaze) although he does not show any ticking on his body.

She tested neg for sabino though?!

Looks like there could be 2 funny coloured Legrande babies on their way then!

 

[cruiseline]

She tested neg for sabino though?!

Looks like there could be 2 funny coloured Legrande babies on their way then!

I was thinking more of her foal with the introduction of sabino from the sire

Well we have ordered an extreme sabino buckskin filly with a striped tail, what did you order

 

[imafluffybunny]

I was thinking more of her foal with the introduction of sabino from the sire

Well we have ordered an extreme sabino buckskin filly with a striped tail, what did you order

Ah yeah.. doh!

Just a buckskin filly would be perfect!!

 

[ldlp111]

Sorry to sound dim but I thought when a horse starts to get more white hairs it's just because they were getting older, or can that be a possible reason?
My mare has started to get more white hairs around her flanks

 

[cruiseline]

How old is your mare ldlp111?

 

[whirlwindhorses]

Most of my mares have white hairs in their coat, or on their leg/s. One mare was born with a dark leg and black hoof, as a yearling she had white hairs on the side of her coronet, each year she gets more and she now looks like she has a white pastern, except its lots of white hairs and this year they are starting up her fetlock too!(now 6yrs) All these mares produce really good colour by my Appaloosa! This is another mare, she was bay as a foal and started to get a bit of ticking as a yearling, this photo was taken last year, she has even more white hairs this year (6 yrs old). Its only on this one side.

 

[ldlp111]

She will be 10 this year in May, she is out of a coloured cob mare and her sire was a dark bay tb.

Trying to find a good body picture. She also has the light hairs on her legs (cream sort of colour).

 

[KarynK]

Jeanette Gower introduced the white factor theory in her book some time ago and maybe these horses are abundant in the modifier genes, which is why when breed to something with a spotting gene including sabino's they can "add" to the amount of white shown in the coat.

On that theory my TB is neutral for white modifiers so has nothing to offer in the way of adding to the white in the coat, but she does show a few white hairs in her own.

My sister has a system that she has been using with appaloosa patterns to work out the white modifiers and has had some success with it, the system predicted one of my shock outcomes!

She believes that white can be stored, so for instance if a true solid App results from two coloured ones, that solid has a lot of white modifiers to pass on as it has not used them itself, though it would need the pattern back from a mate it would help with the extent of the white in the pattern. Equally a highly white horse from two conservative parents would use up most of it's modifiers and so would not have much to pass on.

Then you have JanaNI's mare, to all intense and purposes a solid seal brown bred to a very conservative TB with little white close in his lines and suddenly a crop out appaloosa appears! and then another to a different stallion, so was she in credit for white??

It could well be that the white mutations feed off of white modifier genes, so breeding a standard sabino to a hetero tobiano for instance, wouldn't necessarily guarantee you the tobaino gene but if you got it, the white would be louder??

 

[angrovestud]

KarynK that theory I have heard on the colour forum on tb and also dosage effects and that colour travels DW on E and and sabiano on e so you get different expressions if the horse is a e carrier when ay bay/ black brown I have also learnet that the balck E will help supress the colour shown on a E based horse.
I also have my own Theory that Splash is the white modifing gene Cruise line your mare looks very splash and rabicano the reasons being the blaze is bottom heavy getting bigger as it extends down the nose, The white legs are blocky straight across as oppose to jagged, this is another splash indicator, and I also think the rabicano brings out more splash rabicanos do not have white legs.
your mare has also passed on the white legs to her foal
it seems possible to my mind that splash helps the colour expression in a dosage effect our latest foal carries a lot less splash and is more tobiano inclined he only has a white star instead of a broad white blaze like his 2 brother's and his sister.

 

[cruiseline]

Thanks angrovestud, but can you please explain the difference between splash and sabino? as I thought it was the sabino gene that gave the big white legs and the broad face markings. Also would that mean Legrande is splash rather than sabino??? I'm confused now

 

[angrovestud]

Sabino is feathering and like Antalias/ lacing / spikey patten. it would end white socks with what would appear to be splinters.
splash is blocky stright hoziontal and has flat edges, the face marking of a spash horse in full expression would be a bonnet, take the photo below

what this shows is the expression trying to complete what the dna is saying to complete a bald face but its havinga tossel with the tobano which is not white on the head at all.

This photo show the fact that the blaze is block but again its tring very hard to go over the eyes.

its trying hard here and this is the dosage at work he has it but much less.

this is sabino and is really messy if you looked at the skin it would almost be mottled.
I have had a really good luck at Legrande Pedigree and his sire is quiet possibly a low dosage splash carrier but his sire is much more so, on the dam sire side it is most definatley splash but Legrande could have sabino as well but I will go and have a look at your web site and his children and re post

Didnt take me long


http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10439256
this shows how the dosage works looking at this mare she is splash and mixed with Legrande you get more splash perfect way of showing how the dosage changes up or down depending upon the mate.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10629427&nm=2&time=1301730519
more then mum with his white legs

 

[cruiseline]

But all the splash in your photos is incorporated with the tobiano gene, what is splash without this influence.

Your photo of a sabino is an extreme example, surely!

 

[ClobellsandBaubles]

think i am right in saying (but not sure) splashed comes in varying degrees but looks like the horse has been dipped in paint so white face and 4 white legs ...?

 

[angrovestud]

cloball yes thats right to varing degrees.
splash with out tobiano is a solid white face ending before the forehead and 2 white hinds or four or another indicator is when the back of the leg is white but not the front.
No thats a moderate sabiano picture its not the amount of white its how its edges are

 

[whirlwindhorses]

Is my mare Sabino or Splash? She has no white hairs in her coat.

 

[KarynK]

Whirlwind that is what I would call classic sabino, you would have thought that that was what the sabino 1 test would indicate, but it does not. Does anyone have any horses that tested positive for sabino 1???

This also you would have said was sabino but it is dominant white and I think that most bodily marked horses described as sabinos are dominant whites

Because these genes have not been found we are working on theories some of which are years old and no one really knows where sabino ends and splash or other spotting patterns start. Apparently there is a welsh breeder that produced splash from sabinos successfully, but she remains tight lipped about how!

If you look at gypsy cobs many of which have progressed from sabino type markings through belly splashes you can see many features of the basic patterns on them including coat ticking.

 

[angrovestud]

KarynK thanks for that post the guys on PQ forum colour corner now say the above puchi above is E DW and e sabino but as you say sabino 1 is not in him and no other tests they say its becuse hes bred two diffenet types of progeny and of cource its all anecdotal (sorry)

 

[KarynK]

From the genes highlighted in studies to date on sabino/splash with these types of markings, Kit, Kitligand and O, I personally do not believe that there is a direct genetic relationship between the pattern and white modifier genes and, E or e, except for the fact that e has a tendency to let more white into the coat on occasions. Our White Lady the Australian born all white was the result of two chestnuts as was War Colours (White Beauty's 1/2 brother) and of course that line is confirmed DW.

The trouble is there are far too few of these rare outcrops of TB's, a handful of first instance crop outs in 100 years is not enough to form a theory on and we know there are far too many genes at work in all the spotting patterns for it to be that simple! It is very clear that we are not talking simple Mendelian inheritance patterns with these horses with several genes responsible for the pattern in front of our eyes and even suggestions that parts of those markings say on the face are probably a result of two or more genes at work.

The fact that no TB, Arab or Clydesdale with classical described sabino markings tested SB1 is very interesting, but I don't think an answer is imminent !!