'Commercial Livery Yard'- Definition, help please!

Would you expect to be allowed to offer training to external riders on their own horses?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Depends (please add comments on forum!)


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silvershadow81

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Hoping you lovely lot will be able to help out and share your understanding on something please?!

Interested to hear all your views/ understanding on the term 'Commercial Livery Yard'

Q- If you had a lease on a property which included the term 'Commercial Livery Yard' would you expect to be able to offer training to riders with horses who are not kept at livery there?

Extra brownie points if you could provide any examples of yards who do allow external riders to train there!

Even more brownie points if anyone is a yard owner, classified as 'Commercial Livery Yard' and allows this, or if you work in insurance/ law and can help clarify!

Thanks in advance x
 

milliepops

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at my last place, YO was an instructor. he frequently had outside people coming for training.
his was definitely what I'd call a commercial yard as running the yard was his full time job. it was a BHS approved yard.
he owned the property though so presumably got insurance for whatever he felt necessary.
 

reynold

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You might have to go back to the planning permissions for the livery yard.
My yard had a 'private use only' condition applied to it originally. I had to fight a planning battle to obtain permission for commercial operations at the property (in order to stand my own home-bred stallion at my own stud).

Before going to the expense of lawyers look at the planning record at the local council offices.
 

Sossigpoker

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No. Or only if you paid the yard owner for use of the school. You pay to keep your horse there, making money out of the facility isn't what most yards are set up for.
 

Pearlsasinger

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No. Or only if you paid the yard owner for use of the school. You pay to keep your horse there, making money out of the facility isn't what most yards are set up for.

OP is talking about having a lease on the yard, not keeping one horse there as a livery.

A yard near us only had PP for liveries to use the facilities, originally. I think they may have got it changed now (or they get round/ignore that now)
 

Sossigpoker

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OP is talking about having a lease on the yard, not keeping one horse there as a livery.

A yard near us only had PP for liveries to use the facilities, originally. I think they may have got it changed now (or they get round/ignore that now)
Oh i see in that case as long as they have the correct insurance I don't see what the problem is. Most yards around here are leased by a rider who offers training and often livery there too.
 

j1ffy

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I put depends - I would expect it to depend on both PP (as mentioned above) and also the lease agreement. Some YOs may not want multiple horse boxes and people coming on and off the yard so I would expect there to be a discussion and agreement on what is acceptable. Also, as hinted at above, it would mean more wear and tear on the arena and possibly other facilities.
 

Leandy

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I also think you would need to check the planning permissions for the yard. The lessor can't grant greater rights to use than he has himself. It is common that PP considers increased traffic to the property caused by the change in use so there may well be restrictions around that, even if not specifically teaching outside clients.
 

ycbm

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Yes and no.

I think the person who writes the lease can stipulate what they like, and that planning consent may restrict use to those who livery on site if they don't want loads of horseboxes and trailers on local roads.
.
 

chocolategirl

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Hoping you lovely lot will be able to help out and share your understanding on something please?!

Interested to hear all your views/ understanding on the term 'Commercial Livery Yard'

Q- If you had a lease on a property which included the term 'Commercial Livery Yard' would you expect to be able to offer training to riders with horses who are not kept at livery there?

Extra brownie points if you could provide any examples of yards who do allow external riders to train there!

Even more brownie points if anyone is a yard owner, classified as 'Commercial Livery Yard' and allows this, or if you work in insurance/ law and can help clarify!

Thanks in advance x
I don’t allow anyone from outside my yard to use my facilities. My insurance wouldn’t cover it so I don’t want the extra hassle or expense, insurance is so expensive as it is and is one of the many reasons I’m winding my livery down now after 25 years. My arena cost almost 50k, but was done mainly for my daughter, so I don’t want ‘outsiders’ using it as I can’t guarantee they’d look after it properly😏
 

Kat

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Is it the lease or the insurance that is stopping you?

The insurance probably just needs you to pay for an extension to the policy. Understandably there is a greater risk of a claim if you have external clients coming for lessons so the policy would be more expensive.

The lease is more tricky, but others have addressed that above. If it is really important to you to have external clients you may have to look elsewhere.
 

silvershadow81

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Thanks everyone so far for all your responses.

It’s the lease which says to be run as a ‘Commercial Livery Yard’ and there are no exemptions to this on the lease.

Was after thoughts and examples of yards you may know of which fall into ‘Commercial Livery Yard’ where external riders can receive training from the leaseholder (who is fully insured to do so)

thanks again 👍🏼
 

DabDab

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Yes I know of someone who leases a yard and has outside clients going there. I have no idea of the terms of her lease, nor her insurance. I don't believe that 'commercial livery yard' has a standard legal definition anyway so it probably wouldn't help you much. To my mind the literal definition of 'commercial livery yard' would be where someone offered livery services for money, which rules giving lessons neither in nor out.

If you were going to offer lessons to outside clients then your insurance would need to specifically include this.

If you are leasing the yard this may get complicated, if, for example, there is a shared access to the yard, or clients would have to travel over the non-leased bit before getting to your bit. Your landlord would technically be liable and not covered by your insurance for the time a client of yours was on the non-leased bit of the property.
 

Ossy2

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It’s hard to understand with just a small extract from a lease. If “Commercial Livery Yard” is a capitalised term in your lease it must have a definition associated with it in the lease document. What is that definition?
 

teddypops

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I put depends - I would expect it to depend on both PP (as mentioned above) and also the lease agreement. Some YOs may not want multiple horse boxes and people coming on and off the yard so I would expect there to be a discussion and agreement on what is acceptable. Also, as hinted at above, it would mean more wear and tear on the arena and possibly other facilities.
That’s what I think too.
 

Red-1

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If the lease is for a commercial livery yard then the only presumption I would make is that you can charge people to keep their horses there, and provide services such a rug changes, provision of fodder and bedding, provision of grazing etc. Most livery yards have an arena, but not all, but if there is one the using it would be part of livery, no issues.

Providing lessons to liveries is a little more grey, as it still falls within services for the livery clients. Not all livery yards have a trainer though, so I can see this being not quite so straightforward. I would say that would sneak in, but wouldn't presume it without checking the lease.

Lessons for clients who are not liveries does not fall into livery services at all, IMO. This would then become a " commercial Livery and Training Yard" situation, as opposed to a livery yard.

I'm not sure how you could say that training external clients is in the course of business of running a livery yard. So, I guess, although I ticked "it depends" in the survey, I am really saying, for your specific example, no.
 

ycbm

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I think the lessor is trying to lease to a business, which quite likely gives them greater control over getting you out of they don't want you there. In those terms, Commercial would mean charging for services and submitting business tax returns.
 
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spacefaer

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I have definitely attended leased yards for training from the lessee. They've offered livery but as a separate part of the business.
"Livery yard" per se doesnt cover training imho, commercial or otherwise
 

Kat

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Thanks everyone so far for all your responses.

It’s the lease which says to be run as a ‘Commercial Livery Yard’ and there are no exemptions to this on the lease.

Was after thoughts and examples of yards you may know of which fall into ‘Commercial Livery Yard’ where external riders can receive training from the leaseholder (who is fully insured to do so)

thanks again 👍🏼
So if there are no exemptions in the lease where is the issue?
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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I have a private yard. In my deeds there is a clause "for the keeping of horses and ponies and for livery. Not to be used for commercial livery"
This last was put in as the access track is across privately managed common land.
Our solicitor determined the 'commercial livery' as making a living from it.

It never affected me as I only had 2 or 3 liveries at a time on DIY or part, neither did it affect me when I was backing, producing and selling as non were commercial livery.

Of course these days I'm just keeping my own.
 

Winters100

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No, I would expect to have to negotiate with the property owner to widen the use clause if I wanted to offer services outside the description of 'livery yard'.
 
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