Competing on Sedalin?

[JustKickOn]

As per the title really, with specific relation to dressage.. Have you ever competed your horse on sedalin, or would you? Have you used another form of sedative or calmer? And what would be the circumstances you would do so, if at all?

Just curious

 

[humblepie]

No but am aware of someone who has done at low key unaffiliated just really to be able to get onto the horse. Don't have mine on any calmers of any description.

 

[Daytona]

I've known folks to do it at BS I think if your caught you will be in trouble though

 

[TarrSteps]

People have done it, doesn't make it right.

We've discussed it before - heatedly - and the rules are very clear. I guess people could argue that unaffiiliated is not a problem as not technically "under rules" but most competitions either have their own rules, are RC or similar, or work under the common ones for the larger discipline.

Interesting that you ask about calmers - every time I make any connection between calmers and sedation everyone has a fit! But yes, I'd say probably as many horses as not compete on some sort of calmer that is not a controlled medication and/or not testable.

 

[ihatework]

In answer to your question I have never competed my horse/s on sedalin and never would.
Main reason is that it is an illegal substance but even greater than that is that if you feel you need such a substance to ride your horse then it isn't ready to go out in public.

I have ridden horses on sedalin that needed controlled exercise post box rest and to be honest didn't like it in the slightest, and wouldn't rush to do it in the future. On one horse I got off after a couple of minutes and led them instead.

I have tried/used/competed on calmer supplements but have only had one horse that they have felt to really benefit.

 

[JustKickOn]

I have heard of people competing on Sedalin, as well as being aware it isn't a legal substance or competition. There is another by prescription from the vets, which has a similar effect, but is legal I believe.

My main reason for asking, is that my mare is working at novice at home, and is more than capable of elementary things. At home she works like a dream, and after each session or lesson before a competition, I feel like we could go out and win the class. The issue that arises is that she loses the plot in a competition environment. We go out away from competitions, and she is no trouble at all, has a few little moments and spooks at silly things, and then is fine. It's as though she sees the white boards and her brain just scrambles. I stay chilled out, as competing is enjoyable to me and don't get nervous at all any more. Going out more often doesn't have an impact, she still becomes a naughty giraffe, HC entry doesn't make a difference, not plaiting or doing much prep before going doesn't make a difference. With another from the yard, she squeals and calls for them lots, with no company, she kicks the hell out of the lorry and finds a new friend to call for, setting everyone else's horses off...

After a few discussions with various people, we have all come to the conclusion that at the age of 19, approaching 20, she is unlikely to change, yet I still would like to take her out to dressage competitions. Especially considering how fantastic she goes at home. A few people have suggested sedative, or calmers, all with various opinions about the effectiveness (or rather not in some cases).

Sedalin has minimal impact on this mare, and to be sedated by the vet to have her teeth done, she needs 4 horses worth to even get the gag on... She is very intelligent, and fights against it, which counters the effect of the drug.

My first approach is to try some rescue remedy on her, for the week leading up to a comp, and then a double dose on the day, to see how that works. Then will move onto a calmer, and then try Sedalin, entered HC, as a last resort.

The only difference I can see between calmers and sedatives, is the controlled substance in them. They are both used for the same purpose...

Ihatework- which calmer did you use, that you found worked??

 

[One More]

I have heard of it, personally haven't but I know of one situation in particular whereby it worked incredibly well and the horse was 'weaned' off it.
I have used/am currently using it on my top horse coming off box rest, he is rather fiesty and as beautiful as his flowing white tail is disappearing over the horizon, it's no good if he's only meant to be walking.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Wouldn't personally and being honest I think you just need to get this horse out and about and let her neigh and just keep working her and working her until she's quiet even if you just go to the event enter do you class then school and school and school until it's not that exciting anymore. Pick smallish events and expect to be spending the day there

I would do this over doping my horse to the eyeballs with drugs

 

[Laafet]

I used to on my last horse, but that was under duress and a last ditch attempt to get him over his competition anxiety without killing me or other competitors/spectators. It took the edge off but then his performance was lacklustre, I used it 3 times, then tried again without and he was worse than ever. I sold him back to his breeder, they tried to compete him too just once, then gave up too, so now he hunts and hacks out and that is it. He couldn't even cope with inhand the older he got, in spite of the amount of training/calmers he had. He was the most frustratingly talented horse I have ever owned.

 

[springtime1331]

Or try dressage anywhere! My WB mare was unsafe out but worked nicely in the school. We did quite a few dressage anywhere comps and you tend to get great judging.

 

[JustKickOn]

Wouldn't personally and being honest I think you just need to get this horse out and about and let her neigh and just keep working her and working her until she's quiet even if you just go to the event enter do you class then school and school and school until it's not that exciting anymore. Pick smallish events and expect to be spending the day there

I would do this over doping my horse to the eyeballs with drugs

We have been taking her out for two and a half years dressaging, in an attempt to do just this. It has not worked, believe me on that one. The more she neighs, the louder it gets, the more frequent, and worse it gets, she doesn't settle. The events we go to are small anyway. The calmers etc would be a very last resort as an experiment for if it worked. Certainly wouldn't be to the eyeballs either. It really would be a last ditch attempt if we did try it.

Or try dressage anywhere! My WB mare was unsafe out but worked nicely in the school. We did quite a few dressage anywhere comps and you tend to get great judging.

I did sign up for this at the start of the summer, but didn't ever get round to entering any. We have this as a back up plan too though, as you can record however many times as you like, to get the best possible. Sneaky, but good I suppose!

 

[dominobrown]

Why is she so stressed at competitions?
I would try natural legal calmers first.
And if she still stresses then at 20 years old I would not put a horse through that kind of stress as it is not fair. To drug a horse illegally so you can do the odd dressage competition is borderline cruel IMO. Sorry
Also you said that she fights the sedative sedalin anyways? So it is pointless, at best, dangerous at worst. They are banned for a reason, it may be because it affects co-ordination, and what I have seen it may make horses be calm for a while then BOOM they come out of sedation, which could be mean risking your own safety as well as the horse's.

 

[cptrayes]

As per the title really, with specific relation to dressage.. Have you ever competed your horse on sedalin, or would you? Have you used another form of sedative or calmer? And what would be the circumstances you would do so, if at all?

Just curious

I would not dream of it. I've owned two very difficult horses, the first of which is now dead, through being a congenital wobbler. The second will begin competing again soon after a kissing spines operation, the pain of the condition having left him desperately spooky at the letters around the arena, where he associated transitions with pain.

I can honestly say that the first time the idea of sedating him entered my mind was reading this thread and it left it just as quickly.

He will do walk and trot tests until he loses his fear and if he never does, then I will enjoy him at home.


PS it is difficult to explain this without sounding as if I am boasting, so please cut me some slack if it sounds that way. The horse's sire is an International grand prix and he is exceptionally talented, as assessed by a senior British judge. . I would no more sedate him to get the scores he is capable of than I would poke hot needles in my eyes.

 

[JustKickOn]

Why is she so stressed at competitions?
I would try natural legal calmers first.
And if she still stresses then at 20 years old I would not put a horse through that kind of stress as it is not fair. To drug a horse illegally so you can do the odd dressage competition is borderline cruel IMO. Sorry
Also you said that she fights the sedative sedalin anyways? So it is pointless, at best, dangerous at worst. They are banned for a reason, it may be because it affects co-ordination, and what I have seen it may make horses be calm for a while then BOOM they come out of sedation, which could be mean risking your own safety as well as the horse's.

Not sure why she stresses at competitions, there doesn't seem to be and indications for why. She warms up normally, and is well behaved for the most part, she has her little moments, but she has these at home also. You can tell she enjoys being in a different environment, and different school, but she clams up in the white board. Natural remedies and calmers would be tried first anyway, I think I said that above. She is a very talented horse, she moves wonderfully for a horse her age, and when her head is in the game, she is fantastic, but for five minutes, she just kind of 'forgets'. That's the only way I can think to describe it.
She doesn't fight Sedalin when we clip her, it just doesn't have a huge impact on her. She is difficult to do her teeth, she had a very painful tooth last year which had fractured, so she doesn't enjoy the experience as she associates it with pain, even though she no longer has any pain there. The reference was purely to describe. Some horses have a jot of sedative and almost drop to the floor, where as she is barely affected by it. With the Sedalin, she doesn't go dozy like some, she just relaxes a little, enough to clip her, and that is on the full amount she can have for her size. If I were to ever try taking her out with it in her system, it would be on the tinest amount, just to try. At the first sign of it not working or her not being happy, we would stop, turn the lorry round and go home. She lives a life of luxury, as despite all her quirks, I love her more than anything, and would never compromise her well being.

All the sedative considerations are just that, considerations. A lot of decisions and other methods are yet to be tried.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Many years ago I was riding behind a lady master. She routinely used acp to take the 'edge' off her magnificent hunters. The horses always looked a little spaced out and if we stood for any length of time they looked uncoordinated as they moved off. The lovely grey she was on that day failed to judge a steel gate accurately. He died and she was in hospital for sometime.

Sedatives have their place but great care is needed in their use. I have used Vetplus Calmex on a re-hab horse with success.

 

[Red-1]

Hi,

I would not, because it is not legal for competition. It does not seem fair on all of the competitors who have worked hard, trained and presented their horses legally for someone to be competing on not a level playing field. This is apart from risk due to sedated horse or horse welfare.

It sounds like your horse has a fear of moving to a different arena on his own where there are white boards rather than it being a specific competition environment problem. Could you hire the arena the day after dressage with the boards in? I have done this for a client who needed to practice with boards for a spooky horse.

What about hiring the arena at the end of a competition. I did this for my own horse (although it was for SJ), we were in the show atmosphere, used the warm up, and then hired the arena as the last horse went out. Just had a bit of a play, nothing serious, but it didn't half set us up when we went competing. I meant we could clear up any problems there and then. It was realistic as the other horses were sill there in the car park.

Perhaps you could hire an arena as a group, with white boards and make sure your horse is OK to leave other horses and work alone.

I guess as a starter I would paint some white planks and arrange them in the school to work around.

If a horse has a phobia I think it helps to go and meet them wherever they are, right now, rather than trying to work at where you think they SHOULD be. That may be white boards near the field so you lead the horse past them as you turn out, it could mean taking her that far back.

 

[Hoofing-it]

Not sure why she stresses at competitions, there doesn't seem to be and indications for why. She warms up normally, and is well behaved for the most part, she has her little moments, but she has these at home also. You can tell she enjoys being in a different environment, and different school, but she clams up in the white board.

For me, doing anything on Sedalin would be a no. I've experienced horses that are very affected and those which are not, and more worryingly, those on whose it's affects can vary and can't be reliably predicted! Personally, I wouldn't risk a stumble and potentially ending up under the horse for a dressage comp, but appreciate that many do.

An an observation and definitely not a criticism: is your level of expectation with the test transferring to your horse? Seems unusual that she warms up fine but then in the arena doesn't do well. I wonder if your excitement is inadvertently sending her the wrong message? Not necessarily nerves, more excitement! (I know that sounds a bit airy fairy natural horsemanship!!) I hope you manage to find a solution though

 

[JustKickOn]

Many years ago I was riding behind a lady master. She routinely used acp to take the 'edge' off her magnificent hunters. The horses always looked a little spaced out and if we stood for any length of time they looked uncoordinated as they moved off. The lovely grey she was on that day failed to judge a steel gate accurately. He died and she was in hospital for sometime.

Sedatives have their place but great care is needed in their use. I have used Vetplus Calmex on a re-hab horse with success.

My understanding is that ACP is quite a strong sedative, is it not? Clearly the results for that lady worked for a while, but the end result was definitely not worth it.
The vet plus calmex was another one mentioned, need to look into everything in a lot of detail for a while I think, as well as consulting various professionals for their opinions. Thank you.

Red1, why have none of us thought of hiring the arena after a competition!? It's always the very simple things that can slip past us sometimes.

An an observation and definitely not a criticism: is your level of expectation with the test transferring to your horse? Seems unusual that she warms up fine but then in the arena doesn't do well. I wonder if your excitement is inadvertently sending her the wrong message? Not necessarily nerves, more excitement! (I know that sounds a bit airy fairy natural horsemanship!!) I hope you manage to find a solution though

While in training sessions, I expect the horse to work well, it is different in a competition environment. Depending on how she feels on the day, depends on how I ride. If she is a little hot, then we do lots of walking and flexing, and nothing that will make her too fiery, but if she is feeling more chilled, we ask a bit more of her. In any test,my only expectations of her are to listen to my aids, go when I say so, and relax into her work, as she normally does. Have tried riding with an "I can win" attitude; firmly; calmly; stopping mid test to let her breathe and pick back up; all of which have the same result. I may try the rescue remedy on myself too. See if that has any impact.

My trainer is potentially taking her out for me, to see what she makes of it all. As she simply cannot understand how a horse can change so drastically.

It's going to be a lot of trial and error to see what works, what doesn't and to see if there are any factors which are significant to how she and I both react. I think it is going to be a case of practise, practise, practise, and to just keep trying. Fingers crossed!

Thanks for everyone's responses, it has been interesting to read opinions and thoughts about it, from those who have tried, witnessed and from those who have only just thought of it. No doubt I shall post an update at various stages of our long road to relaxation!

Off to look at essential oils and natural remedies now though(!) ...

 

[TarrSteps]

Couple of things . . .

Sedalin and ACP are the same drug.

There is no "competition legal" sedation you can buy from your vet. If it's proven to work, it's banned for completion, period. There are lots of things that MIGHT work and people will give you anecdotal evidence to suggest this or that substance does the trick, but if it's PROVEN and testable it's on the list.

Red-1 does make a very good point. Why should there be one rule for people who want to follow the rules and another rule for people who don't?

All sedatives don't work the same way, they don't even necessarily work on the same aspects of the horse's biology. So definitely calmers do not work the same way as Sedalin. This makes some more useful for some applications and others a very bad idea indeed.

I've ridden on Sedalin. It has it's uses and I would even say there are situations where it's useful. The horses are, however, noticeably drugged and jumping on it is terrifying. I would not be keen to take a horse into a competition situation drugged enough to produce a noticeable difference.

It doesn't last that long, especially if the horse is moving. So you're basically going to be shooting the horse up ringside. Not cool.

Horses tend not to retain on it so it's not always a great habituation tool, especially for specific situations. There is also the risk of explosive behaviour already mentioned.

I've taken it. Involuntarily I might add! (I was dosing a horse and it freaked out and some of the gel splashed on my lip but I couldn't let go of the horse to wipe it off.) It was highly unpleasant and I had a hell of a hangover. I was slow, alright, but I wasn't happy! I have used it before and i will no doubt use it again, although I think there are better methods and medications available for many situations. But I don't kid myself it's a benign experience for the horse.

Do you work with a regular trainer, someone experienced in riding hot/stressy horses? It's hardly uncommon in dressage horses and there are lots of proven strategies for dealing with it. There were horses doing the GP at Olympia this week that were famously, dangerously hot when they were younger.

I do know what you're saying. I had a mare to ride who had been hugely stressed as a promising young dressage horse and the sight of white boards made her literally shake.

So we took her jumping. It wasn't worth the stress to any of us.

She turned into a super show hunter, probably the horse of a lifetime to the person who bought her. Granted, she had some holdover issues re how she had to be handled at competitions but basically, if it didn't involve a dressage ring she could cope.

 

[Lolo]

Does your instructor want this to happen?

What happens in the warm up? Is it just in the test she loses it? What happens if someone else rides her (someone more experienced than you- local pro maybe?)? Had she done any competing before you got her? Does she do it at clinics?

I wouldn't ride a horse who'd been given Sedalin. It's not like a bit of Dutch courage for them, it's a proper sedative that is meant to wipe them out- even a small amount works because it has wiped them out. Which essentially means it won't break the cycle because the horse isn't taking in what's occurring, hence why they're calmer... So it works, but only whilst the horse is under the influence.

As an aside, have you tried going to events where the warm up is in a massive field so you can just let her canter her worries away? When Smokes gets on one (he's super, and generally very bright and happy, but this brightness sometimes tips into sharp spooky mess) Al just canters him around until he regains brain power. It's been quite effective on all hers...

 

[Justturnedfifty]

As per the title really, with specific relation to dressage.. Have you ever competed your horse on sedalin, or would you? Have you used another form of sedative or calmer? And what would be the circumstances you would do so, if at all?

Just curious

We have come very close to using Sedalin to help break a very feisty Warmblood. We have tried various calmers but they really have very little effect. However, I do recommend Equifeast. It is a supplement which helps the horse to concentrate and focus. I know this works and our feisty Warmblood is now working exceptionally well. Look Equifeast up, and try it! Good luck!

 

[JustKickOn]

Can I just reiterate, sedation was just mentioned to me, it's not even come into the grand scheme of things, and it won't ever, if at all possible, and probably won't ever. It was just something that I thought of asking about, thus wanting other opinions on it. Judging from replies, here, it is not a good idea, so will be a very unlikely case if it ever did come to that, which it probably will not. It's one of those cases of "ifs and buts".

TarrSteps- our trainer gets results from us we have never had with anyone else, she seems to have the horse sussed, and knows how far she can push us and for how long till we need a break and then regroup. She has ridden her, and how someone can make a 16hh look 18hh, is beyond me, the mare just GREW within ten minutes at the end of our session. I really get along with her, which in think is important, as we work together.

The mare used to show jump to quite a high level, before being sold and teaching somebody else the ropes. However, I don't really enjoy jumping her, while I enjoy jumping, the horse and I have very different styles, and we do not compliment one another in that discipline. Hence the turn to dressage, which she has taken since I have had her on loan. Trotting poles on the floor are fine, raise them to jumps and you have a whole different animal to deal with. I don't feel entirely safe jumping her. We have done some safe rounds, and some slightly hairy ones, and for the sake of both of us, we don't jump coloured poles anymore! We pop the odd log when out, and she is fine with that, but that is our limit.

If we could find a way round the white-board-itis, then she really would be a cracking dressage horse.

It is just taking us far longer than expected to get there I guess.

 

[Cortez]

Excuse me? If you have to sedate a horse in order to ride or compete it then there is something seriously wrong.... both with the methodology/training and the moral compass. Not to mention the utter illegality.

 

[JustKickOn]

Does your instructor want this to happen? Yet to discuss it with her, it's on the agenda to talk about methods when we have our next session after the new year. ETA- that is discussing options available for us to try over time, not sedating the horse.

What happens in the warm up? Nothing at all, she behaves perfectly, almost anyway!
Is it just in the test she loses it? Yep, imagine stage fright, manifested in a naughty way. She isn't dangerous, just naughty.
What happens if someone else rides her (someone more experienced than you- local pro maybe?)? My trainer has ridden her, but not at competitions. The mare pulled all her tricks on her, and trainer and I agreed that she is a testing mare, with masses of potential, it's just unleashing them steadily that is going to take time.
Had she done any competing before you got her? Yep, lots. She was a show jumping horse. Came from the Isle of Wight, and then went round a little bit. She was very much -school - stable - compete - repeat. She has been in the same home now though for the past 5/6 years, and I have had her on loan two and half. She lives out 24/7 and is perfectly happy in all aspects of her life now, bar the vet and occasionally clipping, but she is getting much better.
Does she do it at clinics? Never been able to afford the cost of clinics round here, nor fancied a lesson with any of the riders hosting them, without wanting that to sound rude! We rode for UKCC exams earlier this year though, in an arena we compete in, with two other horses, and she was a super star. The venues aren't an issue.

As an aside, have you tried going to events where the warm up is in a massive field so you can just let her canter her worries away? When Smokes gets on one (he's super, and generally very bright and happy, but this brightness sometimes tips into sharp spooky mess) Al just canters him around until he regains brain power. It's been quite effective on all hers...

We have done an ODE, cantered and cantered in the warm up, she loosened lovely, and actually on grass, she did a lovely test, with very little objecting, but there were still a few naughty moments. Nowhere does dressage on grass round here though unless eventing, and we don't jump anymore. At one venue, we hack round the grounds for our warm up, blow out the cobwebs, lots of big open trotting, variations of canter in big spaces, last five minutes picking it all up and together, and she does the same in the boards.

We have come very close to using Sedalin to help break a very feisty Warmblood. We have tried various calmers but they really have very little effect. However, I do recommend Equifeast. It is a supplement which helps the horse to concentrate and focus. I know this works and our feisty Warmblood is now working exceptionally well. Look Equifeast up, and try it! Good luck!

Interesting. Will have a look at the equifeast, thank you!!

 

[JustKickOn]

Excuse me? If you have to sedate a horse in order to ride or compete it then there is something seriously wrong.... both with the methodology/training and the moral compass. Not to mention the utter illegality.

Haven't ever done it, just wondered opinions on it, and if people had tried it and the results. When it was suggested as a last resort, I considered the possibility of it, but upon discussions with others, and the posts on here, the likelihood of it happening is the same as the likelihood of me skydiving, not going to happen.

 

[TarrSteps]

Does she react to the boards in non competitive situations?

I'd say the next plan would be to get your trainer to take her out and see what happens. At the very least she will be able to give you a more informed opinion at that point.

 

[JustKickOn]

Does she react to the boards in non competitive situations?

I'd say the next plan would be to get your trainer to take her out and see what happens. At the very least she will be able to give you a more informed opinion at that point.

We hired an indoor arena a while ago, and while we were waiting for the person before us to finish before going in, we warmed up in the outdoor there. It's a huge 50 x 100, and they had some white board set up at one end, trotted her in and out of them, and round inside of them, and it wasn't till about 15 minutes where she had been doing it, that she clocked on and started throwing her toys about a little, but no way near as much as she does in competitions.

Have discussed my trainer taking her out, but need to wait till the comps round here are on, and until I have enough funds available to cover her entry fees and the cost for her time. That is the next port of call though, as sometimes you get so used to something, that somebody else gets on no notices something you have learned to adapt to. Which may very well be the case.

 

[whizzer]

I chipped away at dressage with my horse for years. He never went like he did at home or in our lessons(with list 1 dressage judge ). I kept going with it until finally when he was nearly mid teens I decided after years of disappointing tests to just give up the dressage & concentrate on jumping as he's a good jumper & loves that. Unfortunately just after I made that decision he developed major medical problems & has only just come right 3 years later! He's finally getting back to how he used to be & going well at home but I'm resisting the temptation to try a test as I never solved the problem before & I'm not convinced he'll be any different if I take him out to do a test.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Have you ever though that maybe its the fact she is alone in the arena, I have a mare that will warm up perfect before a dressage test, but the minute I enter an empty arena she changes, said mare has separation issues, back to the riding on sedalin no I wouldnt compete on it, same mare I have mentioned is currently on box rest, and I have been doping her so I can turn my gelding out, and even a few mls of the stuff knocks her sideways, and this is a horse that without dope can be totally calm to complete melt down in a few seconds if she feels llike it.



Just wanted to add if my mare comes sound I wont be doing dressage again am going to try some showing I think she will be happier.

 

[TarrSteps]

We hired an indoor arena a while ago, and while we were waiting for the person before us to finish before going in, we warmed up in the outdoor there. It's a huge 50 x 100, and they had some white board set up at one end, trotted her in and out of them, and round inside of them, and it wasn't till about 15 minutes where she had been doing it, that she clocked on and started throwing her toys about a little, but no way near as much as she does in competitions.

Have discussed my trainer taking her out, but need to wait till the comps round here are on, and until I have enough funds available to cover her entry fees and the cost for her time. That is the next port of call though, as sometimes you get so used to something, that somebody else gets on no notices something you have learned to adapt to. Which may very well be the case.

I'm just wondering if the combination of a competition environment and white boards flips her into "jump" mode. Your comment that she is "hairy" to jump makes me wonder if she gets in the ring and thinks "we're off" regardless of no actual jumps.

Yes, good point about another opinion. Even if the horse does the exact same thing with her, though, at least it will give her a better idea of what you're dealing with.